Ep. 185 Abolition for the People with Bree Newsome and Kiese Laymon

Written By Lauren Tyree

Today we are discussing Abolition for the People: The Movement for a Future Without Policing and Prisons, an anthology edited by Colin Kaepernick. We are joined by two contributors from this collection, Bree Newsome Bass and Kiese Laymon. Bree is a filmmaker and activist, and is best know for climbing the flagpole at the South Carolina Capitol building to remove the confederate flag. Kiese is an author (Heavy, Long Division) and writer, and a dear friend of this podcast. On the episode we talk about what it means to be an abolitionist, contradictions, and the trouble with reform.

The Stacks Book Club selection for October is Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. We will discuss the book on October 27th with Nichole Perkins.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and today we are discussing Abolition for the People: the Movement for a Future without Policing and Prisons, which is Colin Kaepernick's new essay anthology. We're joined today by two contributors from the book- author of Heavy and Long Division and dear friend of the podcast Kiese Laymon and writer, activist producer and artist Bree Newsome Bass who is best known for climbing the flagpole in front of the Capitol of South Carolina to take down the Confederate flag in 2015. They both join me to discuss police and prison abolition, and this incredible collection. The Stacks book club pick for October is Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 27th with Nichole Perkins.

All right, everybody. I'm very excited as I always say, but today I'm really really excited to get to welcome back dear friend of the podcast Kiese Laymon and for the very first time activist artist writer, Bree Newsome Bass. They are both contributors to the brand new essay collection on abolition called Abolition for the People: The Movement for a Future without Police and Prisons, which is the Colin Kaepernick anthology. So that was a lot, but welcome to the show both of you.

Bree Newsome Bass 2:16

Glad to join!

Kiese Laymon 2:17

Super happy to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:18

I'm really excited to have both of you. So I mentioned to you off off air, but I'll let everyone at home know, this is the first time ever we've had contributors for a collection, but not the editor. So I'm not going to be asking the normal questions of how did this book come to be quite as much because they didn't put the book together. So we'll have to wait for Mr. Kaepernick one day to tell us about those details. But in about 30 seconds or so Could one of you just sort of give the people a sense of what this book is about?

Bree Newsome Bass 2:46

Take it away, Kiese.

Kiese Laymon 2:47

Okay, yeah. You know, I think Colin would be okay with this. It's over 30 voices, essays, pieces, by people who think purport to be abolitionists, and who are wanting to talk to each other and talk to the world, I think, in particular ways. What I love about what Colin did, is that we didn't have to synthesize any of our like points of view for this book, you know, especially if you look at Brees piece, I think Bri would say that. I mean, I should ask you this, but it seems like Bree would write that piece to, you know, people who really rock with her. I know that Gwen Woods would have me say what I said to Colin specifically. So it's just an opportunity, I think for a lot abolitionists to talk to the world and talk to one another via our own particular kind of sites of interest.

Traci Thomas 3:35

Wonderful. Bree, how did you get brought into the project?

Bree Newsome Bass 3:40

Oh, well, I just got to reach out from Colin and the team asking if I would be willing to contribute to this piece. And I didn't even know like who all was participating on it. And kind of to Kiese's point. And when I saw I was like, Oh, this is amazing. Like, you know, I mean, I just think it's some of the most powerful thinkers and I'm not saying that the big up myself, I'm talking about a list of people I was around. I was like, you know, this is this is really amazing to have people in there from Mumia to Angela Davis to you know, Derek a per now. And Miriam Kay, about like, I think all of that is like really powerful. And the fact that they let me write on what I wanted to write on. You know, they were kind of like, would you contribute something? I said, Yeah, I really want to talk about this BS around representation and policing and the way that they are clearly trying to make black people the face of policing. And the politics of that and they said, take a stab at it.

Traci Thomas 4:35

And your piece is so good. Which we'll we'll get to both of your actual pieces of a second. Kiese, how did you get brought into the project?

Kiese Laymon 4:42

Oh, it was the same. Colin, and the team messaged me, I think on Twitter, and in college, send me a text asking me if I think about contributing to this piece. And I was like, Yeah, again, not knowing who else was gonna be in it, or what was gonna be asked. And then Colin said, you know, I'm thinking what I want you to do is interview Gwen Woods. And I, you know, I'd read a lot about Gwen Woods and I knew a lot about Mario. And I was sort of overwhelmed at that. At that point. I was like, Dan, you want me to? And he was like, Yeah, I think you you're gonna be so surprised. And then I found out who was in the joint and I was just like, oh, shit, like, I actually like I was I was kind of happy to it was like, as told to patient I had the interview going, and but I was like, I don't know if I got the chops to actually like, write a piece, surrounded by these folk. But yeah, I mean, it's an incredible book. And I'm not I'm not just hyping it in a phenomenal piece of organizing is and I think art.

Traci Thomas 5:39

I really agree. And I have to be honest, going into it. I read a lot of anthologies actually really like anthologies. But usually my criticism is, it's not cohesive, or it gets redundant or, or something along those lines when I read an anthology. And for this, I got all the way to section four. Before I was like, wow, I don't have a problem. Like, I'm like, really into this. Because usually, I'm like, after like the third essay, I'm like, Okay, you guys are all saying the same thing in a different way. But what I found so interesting and compelling about the collection is that you are all really speaking from different perspectives about the same topic, as opposed to speaking about the same topic in different ways. If that distinction makes sense, which. And you've mentioned, there's so many incredible collaborators, and some of them are people that are, you know, household names, in general, and especially if you're interested in abolition at all, like Angela Davis, Dara Capernaum, who was on this podcast. So if everyone listening probably knows that, but then there were so many people I've never heard of, that I was really excited about, and so many perspectives. And also on the podcast, Marlon Peterson is in the book as well. And I really loved his piece. So the collection is very, very good. I want to speak a little bit about each of you and being an abolitionist. And I guess the first question is, do you identify as an abolitionist and how did you come to abolition if you do? And then also, what does it mean to you to be an abolitionist or who can be an abolitionist?

Bree Newsome Bass 7:06

I arrived at abolition from the real realization that we cannot reform this system. I think that was my personal journey to it. You know, I've like the moment where I really started identifying as an activist and like, consciously participating was, you know, around 2012 2013, the Trayvon Martin case, the case of Jonathan Pharrell, in Charlotte, North Carolina, you know, we just had all of these cases. And of course, I remember, my earliest memory is probably the Rodney King case, which, you know, I was a kid at the time, so I didn't completely understand all of it. But going moving from a position of like, how do we stop the police from killing us to understanding Oh, no, that's actually their function. You know, really, as I started to sharpen my historical awareness, being exposed to people who have been in that camp for a long time. And I think what was really key for me and learning this from following people like Merriam cava and Derek or Derek a p&l is like, you don't have to have a solution. Like, I don't have to have the I don't have to have all the answers to what the alternative is to know that this is, I don't even want to say it's not working, because it is working. That's part of the problem, right? You know, you're talking about a system that is a direct extension and continuation of slavery, and genocide and colonialism, that the police in America are the direct descendants of the slave patrol. So I don't even want to say that it's not working, because part of the problem is that it keeps getting better. We keep refining it now. Now, the leader of the modern slave patrol is black. And somehow that's supposed to be an improvement to the situation. So I think for me, it was that recognition that we cannot reform it. And I think I even say in the piece, like what does it mean to reform slavery? Like, what are what are we reforming? And why? Right. And I think that's how I arrived at the point of saying, like, No, I'm in the abolition camp. You know, I'm definitely gonna move over here from the reformist folks, to the folks who are saying we cannot actually reform this, nor should we.

Traci Thomas 9:07

Yeah. Okay. Kiese, do you want to answer about abolition and your journey there?

Kiese Laymon 9:11

You know, for the longest I was clear that I didn't believe in police prisons, bullets or guns, like I just I don't have particular relationships with all those but I don't I didn't believe in him. But for the longest I wouldn't call myself an abolitionist because like Bree, I thought that meant that I had to have formulated an alternative to police, prisons, bullets and guns. And it's once once I realized that the people who were who were thinking about their relationships in our collective relationships to a tomorrow where that ship doesn't exist call themselves abolitionist. I felt okay calling myself an abolitionist. But but but I'm still one of those people who doesn't want the title to do the work. So I mean, like, Yes, I'm an abolitionist, but I don't I would never like foreground that when I'm talking to somebody, because I think like sometimes MCs sorts of titles need to be talked about, and not just like proclaimed. But if masked, yes, I'm abolitionist for sure.

Traci Thomas 10:07

Yeah, there's a quote in the book, I think maybe it's maybe I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember I my notes aren't great. But that Angela Davis says, abolition is about rethinking the kind of future we want. And that, you know, that sentence is very void of solutions are very void of concrete things. And I believe I heard Merriam Cava talk on an interview, where, where they mentioned, we've had years and years of prisons and police, and they still don't have the answers. So how is how is this movement supposed to be? You know, why don't why are we being asked to be any different than the system that's been in place? Why are we being for you know, and not that we shouldn't be better? Because I think that's the goal of abolition is to be better than what we have now. But that, you know, these things take time, and they evolve and all of that stuff, which sort of leads me to my next question. In reading the book, you know, and what I know of so about prisons, up to this point in my life, and police, you know, came from slavery, as you mentioned, and when I think about slavery abolition, I know that there was a long movement over time to get there. And then there was a war, and then Lincoln freed the slaves, and for the most part, slavery was abolished. And I'm wondering, is there a journey towards prison abolition, that can be slow and go through reform? Or do you all have any sense that it might have to be like one day, the President and all the governors get together and say, we're not doing this anymore?

Bree Newsome Bass 11:36

So I, I don't completely agree with the narrative that says, Lincoln freed the slaves, and we abolish slavery. For the most part, I think that slavery evolved, I think that I think that we ended chattel slavery, which was a specific kind of slavery. But I don't think and I think we had a brief period of time, what about 12 years or so that period of reconstruction where we were kind of dismantling the system. And then I think that effort was overthrown, I think, the assassination of Lincoln and then Ruby Hayes referred me Hayes, who pulled the troops out of the south, I think that mark the end of that, and I think the following century of Jim Crow, of the expansion of the ink cart, the carceral system, I think, is what I would define as like, the modern iteration of that system, you know, so I don't have faith, that there's ever going to be a time where like, the white power structure of, you know, governors and presidents and you know, the inheritors of the colonizing class come together and say, we're going to end this whole system, because I don't even really think it's about crime. And that's the other thing, like, you know, I don't consider myself an expert in this like, I am, you know, I have moved over to the camp of the people that I am studying and learning from. But I agree that I don't think it's really about crime. Yeah, I think it's about a system of control, you know, and in order to end that system of control, you have to address the entire system. It's tied to economics, it's tied to the social structure is tied to who gets to control the land and control the wealth. So no, I think I think it's going to require a people's movement of people's uprising, which I would define as what's happening. I mean, I think like the movement to close Rikers, and all of these things, I think that's the movement, quite frankly, the same movement that ended slavery because Lincoln didn't want to.

Traci Thomas 13:43

No, that's so interesting that you that you say it that way. And that makes sense. Because, essentially, what you're saying is that in name only did slavery, and which, you know, is definitely the argument that I've seen and heard from many people, because the reason I asked that question is because the other thing that I've learned from the book, and from studying from other abolitionist is that, you know, a society that has abolition that has no police, no, prisons can't have racism, or capitalism, and all these other things, like those two things can't function together is sort of the understanding that that I've seen, but I'm wondering, like, can we abolish prisons and policing and like, work on the other stuff? Or didn't you think we have to, like, eradicate all of that stuff to even arrive at a place where prisons are gone? Does that makes sense?

Kiese Laymon 14:30

I mean, we have to attempt attack to eradicate all of this stuff. Yeah. And that's just, I mean, this is what's so pernicious about about policing, and carcere ality like, if you take it back centuries and centuries like like, not only is it not solely reacting to what we call quote, unquote crime, I think the argument can be made the police in this nation and this nation state in this idea of a nation is always sort of reacting to organizing strategies always react and I Mississippi you see this light It completely like, you know, like people always talk about parchment. But they don't talk about what parchment had to do with like organic organizing that was happening in the rural south, you know things Oh, yeah. So So my point would be that that like, not only are we part and parcel of long, long strategies of organizing of abolitionist principles are pushing back and reconstructing, but policing to is innovative, because we have been so innovative, right? I mean, it's not about fucking crime, the crime is to, is to have the wherewithal to say that this shit is wrong. So then that crime make so that crime police and entity, I think, then mores re talked about, right, but that's how I see.

Traci Thomas 15:40

Right, and like the crimes, exactly, the crimes are changing, like I just was reading an article about what's going on in Florida with giving the right to vote back. And now all of a sudden, if you don't pay your fine, you lose your driver's license, right. And so then you can't go to work to make money and then you can't pay your fine. And then you end up in jail for a suspended license. And like that's a new crime. That wasn't a crime before Floridians voted to give people who had been incarcerated the right to vote like so totally, that the crimes are evolving. And the policing is evolving with the action that's being taken. That makes a lot of sense.

Bree Newsome Bass 16:12

in North Carolina, if I can just point out they actually just attempted to outlaw protests. I think they can do similar measure in Florida to the Governor vetoed it. But I mean, it without the governor, they would have passed that they had enough votes in the legislature to to effectively outlaw protest.

Traci Thomas 16:29

Wow, that's just incredible. Because allegedly, that's what this country is founded on. Right. Like, allegedly. That's the first amendment.

Kiese Laymon 16:38

Absolutely. And also, I just think that that that also is what partially what is so insidious about what we see happening in Mississippi around a woman's right to choose, and you see it explicitly in Texas, right? Because it's not just about, like policing, and it is about policing. It's not just about displaying, but now it's literally about making, quote unquote, citizens, parts of patrols to get people who might be doing something that these folk deem to be criminal. But I just think historically, I just think it's like that is our history. And I'm not sure, right, I don't think it's me, I don't think it's no, you know.

Traci Thomas 17:13

And how do we push back against that just continue to get more innovative continued to protests, like what is it just one of those things that whatever we do they are going to come up with something? Or is there a way to break through that pattern?

Bree Newsome Bass 17:32

I do truly believe there is a way to break through or else there would be no point in continuing to, you know, give to the effort.

Traci Thomas 17:38

That's true. Thank you for getting me out of the bleakness, I was going to a really dark place.

Bree Newsome Bass 17:46

Oh, man, listen, I'm always warning people about like the bleak things that I say or like my bleak analysis, you know, on current things, but I mean, I do still believe at the end of the day, it is possible. I think it requires organized resistance, I think, and I kind of agree with casing like I view the situation in America is just like one iteration, right? That's like the modern version of things that have been going on with empires for a long time, like, you know, for as long as empires have existed. And I think that keeping us constantly disorganized, like you said, policing and outlining the ways that we attempt to organize ourselves. I'm really focused on the issue of you know, housing and evictions. I think that is absolutely about keeping people in a constant state of disorganization constantly being uprooted. You see what they're doing with people in prison right now trying to limit their mode of communication, you have to have money in order to communicate with people like I think all of that ties back to preventing the masses of people from organizing in such a way that you can topple the ruling elite. Right. So I do think it's possible. And I think if it if it weren't possible, they wouldn't put so much money into police and prisons, you know, they have to put so much in it, because that's the only way they can maintain social control. That's the only way a few people can maintain social control over so many.

Traci Thomas 19:07

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, reading the book, and reading about the dollar amounts and coming. I mean, I think I knew it, but actually seeing like the like 34 billion from Homeland Security and like, like seeing those dollar amounts was really jarring, especially, I had just last week finished watching that turning point documentary about 911. And all of that money, and the connection between, you know, Homeland Security and 911, and homeland security and prison and Homeland Security and the border and like it was really, it hurt my feelings. Like I was really it was a lot. We're talking a lot about abolition. And I know that there are people who are listening to this podcast, who are not abolitionist, and they believe in some form of reform. And I'd love for you all to speak because this is really laid out beautifully in the book, but I'd love for you all to speak a little bit about the issues with the reform mentality versus the Abilene. units mentality and breeding, maybe this is good for you because it kind of ties into your, your piece about black people being the face of policing, and how that sort of a version of reform will not be so good. So appreciate it. Oh my God, when I so I found out that you two are gonna be on the podcast, but I didn't know. I hadn't read the book yet. And so I was like, okay, just really hopeful that their pieces are good and I got to both of yours and I was like, fuck, yes, this is gonna be awesome.

Bree Newsome Bass 20:30

Yeah, I mean. So I think the question again, I would pose to somebody who was like, abolition sounds really extreme, like, What do you mean about reform? My question is, what are we reforming? Like, what does it mean to reform? Right? And a lot of people, I mean, they're people in my community, like, especially like older black people, if you go to them, you talk about abolishing the police, their first thought is, well, how do we stay safe? You know, because the police do a really good job of coming into the neighborhood and holding community meetings with them about like, you know, what they're going to do to make sure that things are safe or whatever. But let's, let's look at the job that police supposedly do. Right. So supposedly, police keep us safe, right? They supposedly investigate and prevent crime. And they supposedly make sure that the bad guys get caught, right? One, we're not safe. Right. So like, like, Let's even say like, let's, let's forget that there's a history of slavery, let's say there's no racism, like all of there's no classes, and there's none of it. We're still talking about a system that fundamentally is not working. It's not working, we're not safe. Okay? They spent the past several months telling us how everything is going up, crime is going up, even though they keep getting more money. So what you're telling us is that it's not working, you're proving the point that it's not right, then number two, they say that their job is to prevent himself crime. Well, we know that's not true, either, because policing doesn't prevent crime. Again, how do you spend this much money, the United States spends more on policing than some nations spend on their militaries. And we still have crime. So that's not working. And then number three, the biggest criminals in the world are sitting up in the most powerful positions. You know, that's the thing I try to get people to see like crime is this selective thing. So you may have seen this summer they were making a really big deal about this one dude in New York, who apparently was shoplifting from Walgreens. And I was like, the fact that y'all are trying to make this like a national story, right means that we don't really have a crime problem at all right? Like, if the biggest thing is somebody's stealing some deodorant. I mean, I read an article in The New York Post, they were detailing how he likes Tolson Yoder in and like, I was like, really. Meanwhile, the President of the United States, the former president of the United States is launching a riot at the Capitol and is trying to assess the main members of Congress is trying to overthrow the entire constitution, and you don't have a solution to that. And then the last thing I would say is that we already know that police, we already know that corrections officers and border patrol are engaging in lots of crime, they're smuggling drugs, they're committing sexual assault, they're stealing, they're lying, they're killing people. So if you don't have a way to address that you have an address con, because your your system that's supposed to address violence is only creating more violence, right? And so So, again, you I can't have to tell you like, how do we end violence and human society? I don't know, I don't have an answer for that. I think violence has is, has been a thing of human society forever. But what we can say is that this system that's supposed to address it is not working. And that's that is the dividing line between reform and abolition. And I think if we just get to the point of recognizing like, this does not work, then we can have productive conversations. But everything that steers us back towards how do we spend more money on training? And how do we, you know, maybe we if we put cameras on them, they'll stop killing people? No, we we've seen that doesn't work. Just we just have more video of it.

Traci Thomas 24:10

So the videos don't; the camera is broken.

Bree Newsome Bass 24:13

The cameras magically cut off at the pivotal moments. Yeah, like I think I think that's all you really have to understand to understand the difference between reform and abolition, just understanding that it can't be reformed. Yeah. So what do we do? And I think that's the productive conversation where we're talking about, like, we need housing we need, like a lot of these issues could be resolved by funding other things. Let's stop putting all of the money into policing. You know, you talked about $32 billion that went into Homeland Security, we could have housed a whole bunch of people with that we could have provided mental health services for a lot of people with that. Yeah. Could have given free free deodorant. Maybe you have the shoplifting at the Walgreens, you know?

Traci Thomas 24:58

Yeah, in the book. I wish I could remember Who said it, but someone was talking about how also the reform idea is flawed because right now, even if you took the money from some of the money and gave it to schools or gave it to housing, that money is still in service of policing, because the ways that our schools and housing are set up to police, the residents and the students. And there's that great essay about like, e carcere. ation, and then there's another one about like, all the apps and how one of the apps for the bail fund is like, the money just goes to people. And the other one is like, oh, did you miss your parole meeting and like, even those apps that are that's the one that's funded by Jay Z, I think it's called promise. One is called abolition, and that's the one that's just like, Here's the money. And the other one is called promise, and that one takes the money and gives it to people. But also you have to check in for your parole or your meeting with so and so or your this or your or your drug test, or whatever. And so like even these apps that are supposedly helping to reform the system, are part of the system, which is why so much of reform doesn't work is because it's tied back, like to the idea of policing in prisons, which I had never thought about it that way. And I had a real like, my blown moment. Okay, I want to, Kiese, I want to give you a second to talk about, about your piece, which is so great. It's a conversation with Gwendolyn Woods, who is the mother of Mario Woods, who was killed by the police. And I have my big question for you is how did she change how you think about sort of the quote unquote, mothers of the movement?

Kiese Laymon 26:40

I mean, Gwen Woods changed how I think about mothering and parenting. She's incredible. You know, I read a lot about parenting. And this book I wrote called heavy. And so earlier, when I talked about, you know, the 30 Plus abolitionist, I wasn't sure whether or not I could call Gwen Woods, an abolitionist, because one of the things that she says in that piece is, I know, I should not say this, but I wish the people who shot my son had to do time in general population. You know, she's like, I wish they had to go to jail. And she's like, I know, I'm not supposed to say that. And so it's not fair. I mean, I don't want to be just based, but I had not talked to anyone who was as sincerely informed and righteously fucking mad. And use that sincere, informed anger to be clear, like she was so fucking clear thing. Like, she knows what. And part of the conversation to me that like really blew me up was when, yes, let's talk about Trump. Let's talk about Obama. But she was like, below, I want to talk about Nancy Pelosi, as well, right. And she wasn't doing that thing where I want to talk about Nancy Pelosi and not talk about Trump. But she was like, again, it's systemic. And she's like, if we're gonna talk about systemic weakness, we have to talk about like the ways like a lot of these politicians, this goes back to Greece peace, kind of like, purport to be walking the walk, but we can see what they're actually walking and talking and doing. And this is what you did to my son, Nancy Pelosi. And now you want to throw on a Kente cloth. And if she ties it back to structure, and so for me, it was just like, I would, I'm not that clear. Generally, I would never be that clear if my child or my mama was shot. But somehow like she has channeled with Colin and lots of reading and lots of listening. Like she's she's channeled that thing, and I feel like Fannie Lou Hamer ahead, then it forms sincerity, that you don't get much, you don't hear that kind of shit very often, right? And I wanted to talk about her kind of being like, I want them to do time in jail, because informed sincerity is not necessarily clean. Like she can say some shit. They're like, she's like, I know, you don't want to hear this, but, and I just needed I just thought that that was great for the book, as well. As you know, also, when Colin says early on, my first attempts at pushing back were reformist. Like, I was a reformer. You know, I just think like that those kinds of opportunities in the book, like make the book not just like a close tomb, but like a, like a really sort of, like fleshy organizing tool. And I think that's, that's where we need a lot more.

Traci Thomas 29:15

I agree. I mean, not to promote a different book that I love but Dara Cornell's book becoming abolitionist does the same thing, right? Like you get to go with her on her journey, which has a big pitstop at reformed town like she was in there and she talks about it and I think it's helpful. It helped me to be more comfortable talking about my own feelings about abolition and wanting to be an abolitionist and like claiming that part of myself. And so I think that is really powerful in this book is like the contradictions, make it more human and make it more attainable, right? Like you don't have to be Angela Davis, to be an abolitionist. Right. Like we aren't if that's the bar, we're not gonna get there. Most of us, maybe just her. Yeah. So Davis is the only one who's allowed volition if the rest of us are really screwed because like, right? There's one of her. Bree, I keep saying I want to talk about your piece and then I keep not letting you talk about it. Will you tell us a little bit about your piece and why it was important for you to write about it and answer the very important question of does every single major Police Department have a black person who is NPR-like. Is that true?

Bree Newsome Bass 30:21

It feels like it. It definitely feels like it an even as y'all were talking just now, I was just thinking about how scary that like that's what scares me more than anything. It's like, it's not the Bull Connor figures that scare me. No, it's the way that they try to make the black middle class the face of reform, right, and the sign that things are getting better. Like, you know, we have a black police chief and we have a black mayor, and we have a majority black city council and we have black owned businesses. And you know, that's that is what we are inundated with in places like especially like, you know, Atlanta, and Charlotte, and even, you know, Chicago now. I mean, we see what's been happening in Chicago, they've made such a big deal about the election of Lori Lightfoot, as being you know, the the black, lesbian, female mayor. And this is supposed to be a sign of progress. And what has changed fundamentally, for black people in Chicago, nothing what has changed. But fundamentally, for queer people in Chicago, nothing, you know, what happens is that we just diversify the oppressive system. And so that was kind of that's basically the point that I'm trying to make is that this is actually very dangerous. Not only is it dangerous, but it's very intentional, it's very well thought out, when you're talking about policing, policing is still overwhelmingly white, especially the unions. I mean, this is still a fundamentally white institution. And so the choice to try and make black people, the face of it is a deliberate choice, you are trying to, you're trying to strip the institution of its racial context and his racial and class context, and give us this false sense of progress, that somehow the fact that there is a black police chief, instead of a white police chief, is a measure of progress for all the black people who are still facing violent policing on a daily basis. And it's not. And that's one of the scariest and most troubling developments to me of like the post Civil Rights Era. It's like we you know, we desegregated these public spaces, but we never dismantled white supremacy. And so it's like integration became defined as, you know, the ability of a black person to be in a space that used to be all white, but it hasn't changed anything fundamentally, for the black and brown people, you know, of the nation of those cities. And so that's why I think we have, we have to challenge it. And again, that, to me, is what makes reform so dangerous. It's not just that reform doesn't work. But it's that particular type of reform that is dangerous to me, because we're talking about a possible future where we're not even a majority white nation anymore, but we still have the same exact dynamics, because all we did was diversify the bureaucracy that carries out the violence and oppression.

Traci Thomas 33:18

Right? And, you know, so cynical to okay, this is sort of a controversial question. Don't kill the messenger, but present company excluded. You only can pick one, don't go crazy. What at this moment is your favorite piece in the collection? At this moment, you know, maybe another piece was a favorite. And another time, they're all great. I read them all. But is there one that sticks out to maybe not favorite, but one that sticks out to you as like, was informational or really helpful? Or you know, just shout out someone.

Kiese Laymon 33:54

I like Marlon Speaks. I mean, the book blew my mind as a book as an as an art object. Like I've not seen that book before, and actually want to ask your question about herpes. But Marlon, I think, was situated and situated himself to do something that other pieces just weren't even attempting to do. You know, Marlon spent time inside, Marlon has spent lots of time where to any person I know, trying to stop people from killing each other in His own town, right of Brooklyn, and now the world. And Marlon is a theorist. So like, I just thought like, there was a really fine mix of theory, sort of what we might call memoir, and just sort of like it's like traveling to me, so it's kind of like a travel narrative in a way to me so anyway, I like Marlins a lot, but I loved everybody's piece in it.

Bree Newsome Bass 34:51

It's not easy. I think I'm gonna go with Dr. Ruha Benjamin, The New Jim Crow, because I am like I don't I want to come myself a futurist. But I'm very fascinated by discussion of future and like the development of technology. And that is something that's really fascinating to me like the idea of and frightening, quite frankly, like we, I think it was. Was it Missouri or Michigan recently, they had a game and during halftime, they brought one of those robotic surveillance dogs out. Do you see that? And it's like, wow, that dog can really do the running man. But it's fine, because they are like, I saw this thing on an episode of Black Mirror and now it's dancing on the field. And everybody's like, like, that's kind of freaky to me. And I think those types of things are fascinating to talk about as much as we talk about the past. And trying to give like context for today, I think we really have to talk about where is this going? Because I'm just scared that it gets slicker. It gets more refined. It requires fewer people. And before you know it, we've eliminated police, but we're still all living under this like, technical technological surveillance that does the same thing.

Kiese Laymon 36:05

Yeah but Can I say one thing about breeze, peace. So one of the because I wanted to say brings peace, we asked the question, but you said President company, whatever that phrase is present company now excluded, excluded food. But breeze peas read me the most because I come from Mississippi, right? The blackest state in the Union, the poorest state in the union, intergenerational poverty, you know, no Medicaid expansion. Like we're 50 If and everything you want to be won in. And when you come from places like that, any black person person winning, getting promoted, getting visual space in places we have, like, we inherently cheer that shit. Right. Right. And I think I mean, breathe it this thing where it I felt in some way, what you do is you you asking us not to be race traitors, but to actually consider what it means to hoist up black folks who individually achieve at the expense of all of us, which I think all of us have done to different degrees. But I've made me want to ask you, Bree, how do you if at all deal with that internal thing of wanting to see a black person, quote unquote, win, because we just you know, historically, have been made to lose even we have won? And understand that like, often that black person winning means more suffering for the most for the for for most of us, actually, how do you how do you hold that as a as a person?

Bree Newsome Bass 37:32

Yeah, the Obama administration was the coming of age air for me the you know, because I remember not I never was in the camp, you know, right after Obama, one where they were like, are we a post racial society? I didn't believe all that. I was never like, you know, that, to me was like, Y'all have gone way too far with that. I do remember, like waking up the day after the election, I think like, wow, like, maybe we've like really turned a corner. You know. And I think for me, I think it was, you know, having lived through the Bush administration, and it was very obvious to see all the ways that the US government was corrupt under Bush, and you know, kind of thinking in my mind, we just got to, because you got to put some new people in there. We got to put some people in there who are, you know, trying to change things and seeing how things didn't change. Right. I think the other moment, apart from Trayvon Martin, of course, was Ferguson, that moment, like those first few days in Ferguson, where this town was just like under siege from its police department, and there was just silence, right from the federal government. And we had a black president, like, that's when it said to me, like, wow, this doesn't change anything. Like just because there are some black people in some positions of power does not mean we are free. So then what does that mean? You know, and I do think that there is some power in it, because I don't think that we would have had the level of uprising that we had in the past years that had Obama not been elected, because I do think it was the, I think it was the combination of seeing a black person in power. And black people feeling like we should have full citizenship like they were feeling like things were more possible and then running into walls that made people rise up in another way. But I think that we are also through that process, seeing the limitations of representation, like if you are going to be a black mayor, but you're not going to do anything about the police. All you're doing is acting on behalf of the the white corporate structure and in some ways, you become more dangerous. Because Because and Lori Lightfoot is a perfect example. She's not the only one that does it. But she's a perfect example of the people that get in those positions. They act to the benefit of white corporations, right? And then when you call them on it, Oh, I bet I'm black, right? And then all of a sudden, they ultimately want to embrace identity that that makes you more dangerous than the white politician who was there before because he couldn't do that he would turn around and be like, Oh, but I'm black. Right? You know, so that is that is more insidious in a way to me, and that's what I mean, again, about reform being that kind of reform is really dangerous.

Traci Thomas 40:00

Bree, I have to do this thing that might make me cry and might make me emotional. But I have this opportunity to talk to you. And I truly consider you to be an American hero. Like, I really like your activism and climbing that poll in 2015, I'm gonna cry, I'm so embarrassed, I'm sorry. But like to see a black woman, be strong, and be brave and be powerful, and to be the center of attention and to own that space for good. I really think you've changed who I am. And my understanding of like, what it means to be a black woman. And I'm like, we have examples in the past. I think like, you know, of course, Rosa Parks comes to mind, but like you really embodied this moment in a way that I will never forget. So first, thank you. But now I have some like really nitty gritty questions. That might sound funny, but they're not funny. I'm like, I've been wanting to ask you these questions since that day, and I can't believe I have the opportunity. But how did you know how to climb a flagpole? And was that something that you had prepared for? And because the action took place after the murder of nine people in a church? Did you always know that you were going to wait for a moment when people were paying attention to the Confederate flag? Or was this something that you had been planning and, and I know that these things come out of collective action. So I'm assuming that you know, this wasn't something you just decided woke up that morning and decided to do? So? I don't know. That's a lot of questions. But I just have to know how it came together. Like, I just can't live I got to talk to you.

Bree Newsome Bass 41:43

I know, I really appreciate it so much. So my family's from South Carolina, from the Carolinas period. But my mom's family is out of South Carolina, that's a confederate flag that has been a thing for generations, like everybody knew about that flag, they raised it in the 60s, you know, to make it very clear that they were not with the civil rights movement, right, and let us know who really ruled the day. And so that was always a thing. And at that time, I was organizing with people in Charlotte, North Carolina, we had an organizing collective called the tribe, it was like black folks, you know, working together addressing issues in the community. And Charlotte is just an hour north of Columbia, South Carolina. So that's all kinds of like one area, one region. In fact, one of the people organizing with us lived in Columbia, South Carolina at the time. So people have had conversations about taking the flag down. This is something people have protested for a long time. And people even have other protest stories about attempting to take the flag down. So it was something we had talked about, but not in any serious way, right? Until the shootings happen, obviously. And like all of this attention focused on the flag there in South Carolina, you might remember at that time, like other places had started taking advantage like Alabama went out and like took their flag down right away. But South Carolina refused to lower it, right. They refused even lower it for like a day. They lowered the American flag and the state flag but refused to lower that flag. And I mean, it was, you know, it's very clear the message that they're trying to send to everybody. And so that was when we got serious about it. It was about nine of us who met that particular summer. And we said, is there a way that we can really take this down. And someone actually knew a Greenpeace activist in New York, who had experience scaling trees. And that was where the idea came was like, I think somebody can scale to the top because South Carolina had actually designed this flag where the pulley system was on the inside of the pole. So you can't just like walk up to it and pull it down. You somebody would have to be able to reach the top in order to actually take it down. So that's how that became the method. And the Greenpeace activists trained me actually over the course of like, two days, wow. On that we went out to like the park, it was climbing on a lamppost. And then we actually did finally find a flagpole at a school that I could practice on. And we were wondering, like, is anybody gonna look over here and, like, put it together and see, but nobody did. And we rode down there, you know, that morning, Saturday morning, actually, the night before the Friday night before, late at night, and I went over there and and took it down. And I was working with a team of people. You know, it wasn't just me. But we did recognize like when we were meeting and talking about like, who could do it or like who would volunteer to do it. The fact that I had ancestry in South Carolina, the fact that I was a black woman, the fact that I felt comfortable kind of articulating why we had done what we did. That was how it landed on me doing that because we recognize we're attacking a symbol and we wanted to think about what are we showing people and we wanted people to see a black woman. Take it down. We wanted it like we're not waiting on the state of South Carolina. We wanted it to be a symbol, not just at that moment, but of the struggle itself. Hmm, you know, just like just like, the fact that we have the just the takedown of flag, like, that's the thing that to me, like continues to blow my mind even when I think about it, we're talking about a flag. Yeah, they could not lower. That's how that's the level of disrespect for our lives, you know, and we didn't want to, you know, they tried to have like their official South Carolina flag lowering ceremony, you know, a couple weeks later, but we weren't going to allow that to be the narrative. Because we know, we know the truth. The truth is not that South Carolina led the way on this issue, the the things that they were forced to do it.

Kiese Laymon 45:36

And I asked one question, because I'll get I'll get Miss Tommy that is. This is Mississippi question. Did you think they were gonna shoot you in your bed?

Traci Thomas 45:43

That was my followup question.

Bree Newsome Bass 45:49

Yeah, no, no, no, we talked about all of that. And I, you know, and I think I always tell people, if you are planning direct action, or something that you didn't get arrested for, or there's physical risks, you got to talk about all of those things, like, what are all the possibilities. And so even more than the police really, we were scared about, like somebody else coming back, because there was so much activity down there, you know, at that time, and that's part of why we did it so early in the morning to reduce the likelihood of there being a lot of people around there. So I mean, we had no, there's no other thing you can do in that situation, we had to come to an agreement that if somebody did pull out a gun, and shoot, everybody would run for cover, because nobody can help me in that position. All right. But you can't go into something like that, unless we have all agreed that that's what we do, you know, in that scenario, and then, of course, we knew that we were gonna get arrested, we knew for sure that like myself, and probably James, he was the one that was standing at the bottom, that we would probably get arrested. But everybody knew that there might be a risk, because we don't know how extreme they might try to go with retaliation against people. So everybody was taking some measure of risk.

Traci Thomas 46:55

Okay, I have one more question about this. And then we'll get back to the book. It's two parts. Part one is, can you believe you did that? And part two is, what was the view like, up there?

Bree Newsome Bass 47:09

I believe that I did it. Yes. Because I think now if you had asked me years ago, no, not at all. Because I wasn't even imagining being involved in activism or anything like that. But I think in retrospect, it makes sense. I think, I've always kind of, like, if you talk to like, a lot of my friends and stuff, they weren't surprised when they realized that I was the one that you know, had done it. Because I was often like, you know, standing up and challenging things or speaking out, you know, it would be a kid in class, like when they read something crazy in the history, but I'm like, um, that's not what my mom told me.

Traci Thomas 47:47

My dream is to be that Mom, I want to be that mom. So bad.

Bree Newsome Bass 47:54

So I think that was always kind of there, that element was always kind of there. And then as far as like the view, you know, South Carolina is really interesting. They have like, deliberately not built up a lot of their cities. So from the from the top of the pole, I can pretty much see like, over, you know, the horizon and all the buildings, there's not a lot of tall buildings there. And it just for me, it felt like victory. Like, we were obviously trying to make a social statement. But it was also a personal statement. Like I can go to, you know, Rembert, South Carolina and touch my great great great granddaddy us tombstone, like he was enslaved there. You know, my grandma's told me about witnessing the Klan firsthand. You know, so, to me, it was about like, I'm not going to allow myself to be intimidated in that way. Right. Because what happened in Charleston gonna happen anywhere. I mean, we were, you know, a lot of people are still meeting in churches. The church is still to this day, like one of the few buildings that we have in our possession in the community. So a lot of times, you know, we have community meetings is that the church that could have been anywhere? And Clementa Pinckney, I mean, I have like one degree of separation from so many of the people who were killed Clementa Pinckney grew up with my brother in law's family. He was like the kid everybody looked up to, you know, I know a lot of the the family members of the people who were killed. So it was it was deeply personal. To me, too. And I think at that point in time coming on the heels of like all that we had witnessed, you know, Freddie Gray, Walter Scott, those were just, you know, two of the cases that jumped out in my mind just from from 2015 alone. I just I don't see a future I didn't see a future if we didn't take a stand. So you know, the physical risk to me. It meant something but it didn't mean much because if people are getting shot for no reason doing nothing, then I'm not safe anywhere. I'm not like if I say to myself, Okay, I'm not going to take the risk. I'm just going to stay here and Charlotte. I can still get killed tomorrow because I They put my parents in the line like Sandra Bland or something, you know, right. And I think that's at the end of the day. That's what I wanted to communicate is like, let's, let's go, y'all we can't we can't do this another century, we just can't.

Traci Thomas 50:16

Thank you so much for talking about that with me. I just really touched and honored. And again, thank you for everything. But we have to get back to the book and to the important questions that the people listening on here, and we're running out of time. So I'm gonna do this fast. First and most important, how do you all right, where are you? How often? Do you listen to music or not? Can you have snacks and beverages? That part's important, any rituals? Kind of give us a quick rundown of how you how you like to write or at least how you wrote this, this piece for for the abolition for the people book.

Kiese Laymon 50:45

Oh, for me, I had a for conversations with Gwen Woods. And then, you know, transcribed all of it. And then I called her up to talk about the transcription to talk about shape of it. And then we kind of went through together and talked about what we would highlight what we would take out. And did I have any snacks? I don't know if I had any snacks with that. I've been trying to do this thing where I eat ice cream was like, I'm telling you all my business, but these little videos because like, I told myself about the little spools. I will eat up. It's like ice cream. Um, so I've been I've been hitting I'm hitting up the little spoons when I'm doing my work lately. It worked. It worked kind of except if you go fast and don't work.

Traci Thomas 51:34

What flavor ice cream?

Kiese Laymon 51:37

I obviously don't get too personal. So it was cherry. It was it? Was it cherries in it? Oh, I want to I want to pick up the brand because they might be foul, you know.

Traci Thomas 51:48

Cherry Garcia from Ben & Jerry's? No, they're the good guys! They're from Vermont, like woke.

Kiese Laymon 51:55

Yeah, you know, Jerry Garcia.

Traci Thomas 51:59

Bree, what about you?

Bree Newsome Bass 52:01

I ruminate a lot. Okay. And I but I finally made peace with that process. Because for a while, I felt like oh my gosh, I'm never going to be a successful writer because I don't just sit down and start writing, but it's okay, like, and I think the little notes app has been actually helpful for me too, because I'll just like, jot some things down. If a sentence comes to me or a thought comes to me, and then eventually I feel where I can like, really sit down and write it out. You know, at least get the skeleton for it. And then the other technique that has worked for me is sometimes I don't have a complete sentence, but that's okay. Like if I'm trying to get a thought out but I can't quite figure it out. I'll just do like that, that that and keep going and that helps me from like getting really stuck. And kind of just like get it out. And I am a snack monster.

Traci Thomas 52:45

Oh talk to me, let's go!

Bree Newsome Bass 52:48

That's actually a thing in my marriage. So I've been this is like coming up on like three years of marriage is one of things we've had to work out because I am the type where like, if something sitting out for too long, it becomes free for all of Yes. Like I am like if something goes missing in the house, I am the one like, you know, hope you like did not buy two bags of chips in the day. Yes, you did. And I always have like a snack obsession and it changes so there's like, one thing I eat like obsessively for like a period of time and then I get something else and like, what is your obsession right now? Oh my God, those Cape Cod chips. Please tell me that Cape Cod is okay.

Traci Thomas 53:30

I don't know anything about them. But they're okay in my book because we don't know anything. Please

Bree Newsome Bass 53:35

Don't tell me they're out union busting. Oh, man. I love the sweet jalapeno.

Traci Thomas 53:49

I'm so glad you guys eat snacks. I get so many frickin writers on here who are like, celery sticks. I'm like, get a grip. Gotta live. Okay, gotta live. That's not even food. Okay, this question is also very important. And since both of you are very smart, wonderful writers. I feel like it's important that my listeners hear this from you. What is a word? You could never spell correctly on the first try?

Bree Newsome Bass 54:11

Bureaucracy. Ooo, that's like an impossible where I can never remember the where the A comes in the E and the A is always throwing me.

Kiese Laymon 54:22

Oh, man it's mad ignorant. Oh, grief. They have flipped the E and I.

Traci Thomas 54:29

Yeah. I just discovered today that a word? I can't I mean, I knew it. But I really clicked my mind was publicly. I can't tell publicly. I'm out. I don't know. I'm adding A's there's no a I guess.

Bree Newsome Bass 54:53

There's very little logic to the English language though.

Traci Thomas 54:55

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's true. And some people just aren't good spellers, and I've had some on the podcast I also like the snack the non snack or people I despise actually Clint Smith comes to mind as a non snack or and a good speller truly a jerk.

Kiese Laymon 55:12

I bet Clint messes up on its; he just ain't telling you about the apostrophes.

Traci Thomas 55:18

Which is really hard actually, I don't know I have to think about okay for people who love abolition for the people would you each give maybe two books that you would recommend for them to check out as a good companion pieces. And you can't say Derecka's book because I already said it.

Kiese Laymon 55:38

I can give wait you reviewed Marlon's book right?

Traci Thomas 55:42

Yes, he was on the show. Bird Uncaged, for those who don't remember.

Kiese Laymon 55:49

Yeah so I want to say Bird Uncaged. Okay. Um, but I also think there's this book called The Black Woman, The Black was a old book 1970s, the black woman is referred to. And I think that that's an interesting sort of COP, because it's a sort of compilation book to have a lot of different writers writing to each other and the larger world. I don't remember who edited it, though.

Bree Newsome Bass 56:16

Okay, cool. Let's see, I think I would say we do this till we free us. Does that count? Or is that all out? Okay. And I would also say, oh, my gosh, why is my mind blinking? I see the book, but I can't. The half has never been told, has never been told about the connections between slavery and capitalism. Because I think that, I think that there's very little understanding collective understanding of how the modern economic and social system really is rooted in slavery, like, we're often told to understand slavery is like a minor thing or a side thing. And I think you really have to understand that to, to then apply that analysis to understanding why we can't reform this system.

Traci Thomas 57:09

I love that. Okay. This is my last question. I normally ask people who's the person you'd want to read the book, but because this isn't, you know, your each of your books, you know, you weren't in behind it, I'm gonna kind of shift the question to be, what do you hope that people will keep in mind as they read this book?

Bree Newsome Bass 57:29

I, I mean, I'm kind of answering the the other question. I mean, I really would love for reformist minded people to read this book. I mean, I think it's, I think it's important for people who are already kind of, you know, in the camp of, of abolition, but I would really challenge people who think abolition sounds too extreme, or they don't understand what people are talking about, to pick this up and, and read it. And what I would want them to think about is that we don't have again, we don't have to have all of the answers, people that have all the answers for what you do after you end, you know, centuries old chattel slavery system. I mean, people raise the same questions. They were like, well, how can we abolish slavery? And if we do that, then how are we going to produce the cotton now what happens to this industry? And what happens to that and, you know, you evolve you deal with it? And so I would say, like, don't think that you have to have all of the answers. Think of approach it as a question like, ask yourself the question, what if we can't reform this system? What if that is impossible? Begin with that question.

Traci Thomas 59:22

So great, thank you both so much for being here. It's really been a treat, I will link to both of your social media and everything in the show notes so people can find that. And the book is called abolition for the people. And it's really good. It's I was really surprised how good it was truthfully. And I just really thank you both for your work and for being here. And everybody else we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all for listening and thank you to Kiese and Bree for being my guests. Also a huge thank you to Christopher Patrella at Kaepernick Publishing for making this episode possible. Please remember the stacks book club pick for October is Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 27 with Nichole Perkins. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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