Ep. 191 Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison -- The Stacks Book Club (Dawnie Walton)

Written By Megan Caballero

It is time for our annual Toni Morrison episode of The Stacks as part of The Stacks Book Club. We are discussing Morrison's third novel, Song of Solomon, and to help us dissect this sweeping story we've brought back author Dawnie Walton (The Final Revival of Opal and Nev). On the show we discuss this book as part of the conversation for "the great American novel", gush over our favorite characters and scenes, and so much more.
There are spoilers on this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of the episode to hear what our December book club pick will be!

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas. It is Toni Morrison day on the stacks book club. Dawnie Walton, author of The Final Revival of Opal and Nev is back to help us break down Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon. The book is a coming of age odyssey of a milkman and his family. And today we talk about feminist novels, Toni Morrison's incredible ranging skills and so much more. Yes, there are spoilers on this episode. Be sure to listen to the end of the episode to find out what our December book club pick will be. Alright. Now it's time for the Stacks book club conversation of Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison with the wonderful Dawnie Walton.

Alright, everybody, it is officially the episode of the year. It is our Toni Morrison episode. Our dear friend and incredible author, Dawnie Walton is back. Welcome.

Dawnie Walton 1:53

Traci, I'm excited to be back. Thank you.

Traci Thomas 1:56

I'm so excited. And we're talking about Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison, it is our fourth Toni Morrison book on the podcast. So people who are listening at home, we are going to spoil this book, we are not taking any feelings about spoilers into account. If you've not read it, you can pause or you can listen and be spoiled. But that's a huge thing. That's not a US thing. We're going to start where we always start Dawnie, which is just kind of generally, what did you think of the book. And also if you want to give a little background to your relationship to the book, like if you've read it before, or anything like that, this is the time.

Dawnie Walton 2:31

Sure. So first, I want to say thank you so much for having me on to talk about this novel. I feel blessed to have read this book. At this time as a writer, as I'm kind of struggling with some things and trying to think about what's next. It was hugely inspirational to me. So I am slowly working my way through the Toni Morrison body of work. This is the sixth novel of hers that I've read. And I'm not sure where I would put this in a ranking of like my favorites. But I will say that I loved it as a reader. I found it probably the most accessible of her books weirdly. Like I immediately fell into it. And I read it really quickly. And I also was in awe of the craft and the audacious style. And just this book is wild. Like I feel like it was seven different books in one like it's a coming of age story. It's Gothic Horror, it's the Odyssey it's mythology. It's a piece of it with Corinthians was like it's kind of romance like it was giving me everything and give me life.

Traci Thomas 3:56

Yeah, I feel similarly to you. I am not a writer. And that is well documented in the fact that I can't and don't write. But I was really impressed with the writing. And I have I had never read a Toni Morrison novel until we did the first one on the show. So this is my fourth Toni Morrison novel and the fourth one we've done on the show. And I feel like I don't know what my favorite one is. My My heart is telling me my favorite is still Sula But this to me feels like a better book than like and I can I separate those two things in my mind of like, what do I enjoy versus what is like, you know, craft better or like storytelling better? I have so many thoughts about why this book of her books is the one that people hold up as the best and I really want to get into that. Yeah, but I think like generally, I was really taken as you said about like the different kinds of genres that this book encompasses. I remember very early on I text an author, friend, and I was like, why am I getting Macbeth fives? Like, there was like this like feeling of like something bad is coming. And like, that's how I feel whenever I read Macbeth that I'm like, I know what's going to happen, like, the way that everybody's talking to each other. Like, I don't know, like, I kept getting like these, like, really Shakespearean vibes. But, you know, 100 pages later, that thought had totally left my mind. And after finishing the book, I was like, Why did I think this was Macbeth? Like, what's going on? So I love that like, I don't know, range, right? That's, yeah, Toni Morrison has the range, which is understatement of the century.

Dawnie Walton 5:38

I was I was thinking about you, actually, when I was reading this book, because I listen to the show a lot. And I know that you love story. You love plot, and so much happens. Yes. And this mean, Toni Morrison, the way that she's able to, you know, like, at the beginning of the book, she skips like, 15 years and one sentence, and it was like, we're doing that, okay? This book is like, it spans a lot, and a lot happens. And it's just like chockablock amazed.

Traci Thomas 6:13

I mean, I think like, I take notes as I read, which I'm sure you know, people know. And I always go back after I finished to prepare for these interviews, or like these conversations, and I look through my notes. And I'm always like laugh because usually, one of the first notes is basically the one thing that sticks with me. And for this book, it was like, she can write a scene, like the scenes, the CS book that I love plot, but what I actually think I mean, when I say that I love plot is that I love really juicy scenes, like I just like things to happen when characters are together. So if you have to give me you know, 100 pages of like, thinking, that's fine, if you can pay it off with things happening. And she, she was giving scene after scene after, like, a friend of mine was like, let me know when you get to that scene. And then I replied with three scenes that I had not gotten to the one that he was talking about. But I replied with three scenes, and I was like, it's got to be this one got to be it's got to be the licking of the fingers of the dad. And he was like, No, but that's a good one. It's like, it's gotta be he's like, No, I was like, I don't know. And the scene that that he was talking about was the seven days scene, like where it all comes unraveled, you know? And like, that's an incredible scene, but to have a book, where someone says, oh, that scene, and then for me to get it wrong three times.

Dawnie Walton 7:31

Got it. Like, I mean, my brain, my brain is exploding with like, all the different scenes from this book that are sticking out to me, I'm thinking about Cersei as a very ancient woman with the dogs in the house, you know, and it's like, Wait, is this a vision he's having? Or is this actually happening?

Traci Thomas 7:50

She was really alive, right? Yes, she was okay. That's what I thought. But then I was trying to do the math. And I was like, No, it would it would hold she would have been like, somewhere between like 90 and 100. But it would work.

Dawnie Walton 8:01

It could work. Yeah. And the thing that I've learned, I think, in reading Toni Morrison is that she means what she says, and she says what she means, like the wild things that happen. They're really actually happening. It's nobody's fever dream. It's not like a vision. And so that made this book, I think, easier for me to read going in and understanding that, that what she says is happening is actually happening, and there's nothing like I just need to fall into it and trust. Trust that narrative voice.

Traci Thomas 8:35

That's such a good point. So that is what my acting teacher when I studied Shakespeare for a year in college. That's what he would always say is that Shakespeare always writes his characters say what they're thinking. And if they're lying, they say that they're lying. Right? Like they do an aside like Iago doesn't aside to the audience and is like, I'm going to lie to Othello, and I'm going to fuck up his life. And like, that's so right that Toni Morrison is like, the drama is the thing, so I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm not gonna hide things if it happened. And I say that it happened. It's happening. Yeah, I say that. It's a dream. It's a dream. But otherwise, it's real. And like, that's what makes the stakes so high. And like, it's so juicy is that there's no doubt as a reader, that all of this crazy, magnificent spectacular over the top, sick, twisted, whatever stuff is happening to these characters, and then they're responding to it.

Dawnie Walton 9:27

And the brilliant thing too, is even in the moments where you might be a little confused, don't worry. She's Queen Tony, got you. She's gonna clear up that mystery. Soon. Like, there's nothing dangling, and you just have to trust her that she's gonna let you know exactly what's going on. So in the beginning, there was something mention of like, the father's fingers or something like that. And I was like, what, what's going on? Did I miss something? And then it was cleared up in the next chapter. And it was like, oh, you know, and again, it's just like She's got you trust her.

Traci Thomas 10:02

You're gonna I feel like what's hard for me as a reader, and why I can't always trust her like I forget, when I get back to her texts, is like so many authors are not Toni Morrison, they can't do it, they don't do it, they edit it out, it gets confusing. And so as a reader, it's like, I'm conditioned to think that my authors are not geniuses, because unfortunately, not everyone is like, obviously everyone's not Toni Morrison. But so when you get back to Toni Morrison tax, it's like, Oh, I forgot what being taken care of feels like, yes. And like, not in like a way where it's like, I'm gonna explain every little thing. But I'm going to leave you these ideas to think about and then I'm going to change how you can think about them, or I'm going to, like, give them more depth, or a different perspective. And like, right, just the stuff with the fingers and the father and the incest. And then when the mom comes in, and like clears it up when they're at the cemetery. And you're like, well, now I don't because of course, you're all in with the dad. In the beginning, you're like, Oh, the mom is, you know, Ruth is disgusting. And she has a problem, and it's gross. And then by the time she gets a chance to defend herself, or like, right, well, your dad would, or your husband was an asshole, and he didn't care about you and wouldn't touch you. And the only man that ever treated you like human was your dad. And so and you loved his fingers and his hands because he was a healer. And like, I get it. I'm still not all on board. But like, getting, I'm getting perspectives here.

Dawnie Walton 11:28

Yeah. And you know, I love a multiple perspective. Right? Yeah. So I love those moments of, you know, in part two, when milkman is sort of on his Odyssey, his quest to figure out, you know, what's going on with his family who they were. And you see him in either a barber shop or like a regular shop, I can't remember. And you see him from the perspective of these kind of country men and they're like, Well, who the fuck are you?

Traci Thomas 11:59

Like, when he goes in to order the soda or whatever?

Dawnie Walton 12:02

Yeah. And it was such a great moment, or even the moment where Magdalena his sister is like, she just like, reads him fulfils?

Traci Thomas 12:14

Okay, we have to get into that. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna save that, because that is like, I think one of the most juicy things to talk about. But I want to preface I want to dive into a little bit about the great American novel. Because I have heard tell that this is the great American novel from a lot of people I know that Layla Lommy, had written for the LA Times about why this was the great American novel, they did like a whole series where different authors pick their book, and that was the book that they picked. But one of the things that I thought about a lot was, what makes this novel greater than say, beloved, which I think is the other one that people would say is her grade. And I wonder if because this book centers maleness, even though it's deeply feminist. I wonder if that is how this book became the one that became the one. Do you know what I mean? Like if it was because male readers, who are the critics, who were the critics at the time, who were the voices at the time, could read this text and be like, Oh, I can see myself and that, and that she, in some ways, is awarded for her work, because it is meeting men in a place, even though you know, there's an argument I mean, I'm not saying this novel isn't great, and doesn't deserve that. But I wonder if, if that has something to do with it?

Dawnie Walton 13:35

I think it could, you know, I think, you know, we have a novel that's primarily through the lens of milkman, but we also get a whole other cast of characters. And in that sense, in the sense that it spans a longer period of time, I think, then, well, does it does it span a longer period of time than Beloved?

Traci Thomas 13:57

Beloved spans a long period.

Dawnie Walton 14:01

Yeah. I watched an interview with Toni Morrison before we hopped on this call. And she was asked, you know about writing from the male perspective. And she said, she felt like she couldn't have written this book any other way. Because the themes that she was exploring in terms of like flight and freedom and all of these things, she felt like that required a male perspective, she had written women characters in a previous works. And, you know, the settings were very kind of like either boxed in or very domestic, but writing from the male point of view, and this one allowed her to sort of like have a bigger and broader canvas. She felt which I thought was was interesting.

Traci Thomas 14:49

I do think it's interesting and like what I the reason that I think that this could be her best, I don't know it's not again, not my favorite, but I think her best is because while she has written this whole book about men centering men, the women in the book, lend the book so much of the lens in which the man and so like I do think not only is it her her male novel, but it's also her feminist novel, right? Like the scene with Lena to milkman. I mean, the character of pilot, period. Pilar, everything is everything, right? And like, the fact that she has Toni Morrison and all of us, right? Like, she's like, I'm gonna give you this man novel. But also, I'm not giving you a story about a boy, I'm giving you a story about a boy who is completely consumed by the women in his life, and they are consumed with him. And they see him in a way that no one else does, and that he can't see himself and like, so for me, that part of it is why I think that it's great. But I wonder if the reason that others before this time lifted it up so quickly, and so easily was because it was a bunch of white men who were the tastemakers and they were like, Oh, this is a good story about a man like finding his place. And they couldn't understand. I don't know, I just so many men who read this book. It's their favorite Toni Morrison. And maybe it's just because, you know, men are men and they want to be Yeah, the center. I don't know. But I do think it's interesting that very few men that I've ever spoken to have said any other book besides Song of Solomon is their favorite Toni Morrison.

Dawnie Walton 16:24

Well, I you know, I would not be surprised if that were the case at all. Because reading criticism from the time that her novels were published, there are some really infuriating shit in those reviews. You know, there was one about this book that was like, oh, you know, she's, she sort of transcended writing about like, race in this way. I can't remember exactly what it was. But it was like super fucking insulting, right? And so the fact that they might have liked this book, because it is told by a male and told with that certain privilege and perspective, I can totally see it.

Traci Thomas 17:01

Yeah, I mean, it's also like the woman who interviewed her who was like, what are you gonna write about white things and she was like, You don't understand how racist that is. But it's sort of that same thing is like she wrote a few books about because this is her third novel in chronological order. So she wrote The Bluest Eye, and then she wrote Sula, which are both like deeply about women, and friendship and bonds between women. And then this book is totally different. And all of a sudden, now she's a star, right? Like, right, York Times review was like, this novel sets her apart. She's finally writing real shit.

Dawnie Walton 17:32

Right, right.

Traci Thomas 17:35

Go off! So, I don't know, that was just one of the things because I kept. When I told people that we were doing the book, I kept getting men being like, Oh, my favorite Toni Morrison. And I was like, oh, there's something. There's something there. And I know her other books later down the road, there are books where she deals with male protagonists again. But I do find it interesting that so many men, this is the one that like, sticks out to them. That is so interesting. Okay, I want to talk about something surprising for me, which is characters again. But if you can write a great character, I mean, I mean, look, you know, this, your book is full of this plot and character. If it's a good book, it can't be separate. Right? It's impossible. And I feel like she is the queen for so many reasons. But also, because she has full human that she writes, like, in a sentence, she'll give you one sentence about someone and you're like, Yeah, I know who that is you and you will never forget that character.

Dawnie Walton 18:28

No matter how many characters she has in the book, you're always able to keep them straight. Because not only is she specific in the way that she writes them, but the things that she writes about them are very peculiar, very memorable. It's like she marks them in certain ways. And it's never like, it's never superficial. Like it always I feel like has deeper meaning, you know, and so the fact that pilot has no naval, the earring that she wears like these things on the surface are superficial, but they say so much about her character and her legacy and who she is and where she's from.

Traci Thomas 19:09

What do you think the no navel thing means?

Dawnie Walton 19:12

I think it has to do with it's a statement on her complete independence. And her sort of not being able to count on or depend on, on really anyone but herself, you know, to the extent where she doesn't even have that very necessary cord between her and her mother, like she comes into the world sort of this independent outsider. And again, I love an outsider. And I just found it to be fascinating. And while the book is a lot, you know, there's a lot of sort of middle logical work being done here around flight and things like that, but she's the character who is, she has her own version of flight, you know, kind of, we see in part two, we get a bit of her story of kind of going from this place to that place and and trying to find some place to be. Yeah, what do you think?

Traci Thomas 20:22

You know, this is where I'm a weak reader, I have to be honest, part of the reason I don't love fiction is I'm not very good at like the symbolism stuff. It's just never really, it's never been interesting to me. And I know for a lot of people, like, that's what it's about. And for me, I just am like, oh, this person doesn't have a belly button, like they are different. You know, like, I don't, I always have a hard time figuring it out. So that being said, I think that you're right, that it has something to do with, like, independence, and also has something to do with like, being an outsider and like being ostracized for that thing, right? I mean, and that's not really like subtext that's in the text, certainly, like we hear about the different lovers that she has that when they find out they kick her out. And I think like, because I think then when we see the way that she's so attached to milkman, and like the way that she's so attached to her, her daughter and her granddaughter that like, there is something about the family type that is important to her. Yeah, even if she doesn't have it, but it is, it's like the only thing that matters, which is why she still is close with her brother, even though he's sort of been not very kind. Terrible. But like even making dead the second Junior whatever I don't, the second, even he gets more and more sympathetic as the book goes, Oh, yeah. Isn't that incredible? Because when the book starts, you're like, fuck that guy. I know exactly who he is. He hates black people.

Dawnie Walton 21:52

He hates poor people.

Traci Thomas 21:54

Poor people, he hates being black. He just wants to marry the lightest skinned black woman he can find, make all the money, own everybody and be disgusted by the drunks and the pores and the revolutionaries and like yuck. And by the end of the novel, I was like, Wow, I feel so sorry for him. Like, I felt very moved by him.

Dawnie Walton 22:14

And there was that again, talking about scenes, there was that beautiful scene where milkman is among all those men who knew his father, when he was young and knew his grandfather, and then being so proud of making dead Jr. and what he had made of himself and then sort of laughing and slapping their knee like, you know, good ol makin like, he did it. And it's it completely changes your, your opinion.

Traci Thomas 22:49

Isn't that I mean, I don't know, I don't know your family situation. And also, you can tell me if this is not appropriate or anything but my dad was an old was older. He was born in 1935. And he was from the south, but they moved to he moved to California and whenever he would be with his friends, and they would talk about things and like how, how funny my dad was or like how great he was in this moment, or whatever, whatever that was, it's like you get to see your parents in this different way, like through this different lens. That like when my dad passed away, like around the time of his funeral when everyone was coming over, you know, and like hearing the stories and like seeing the way that they loved each other hid my dad and his friends and, and like the loss between them and all of that. It just felt so that scene felt so real to me in that exact way of like, yeah, you're finally getting to see your parent as something more than you ever thought that they were or could have been. And like it was very moving to me.

Dawnie Walton 23:48

Yeah, super emotional. I mean, I have a similar story of, you know, I was lucky enough to have all of my grandparents surviving until into my adulthood. But when I lost my paternal grandparents, you know, I love them so much. And they were funny, because they would bicker all the time, like all the time, they would like be arguing about something, but I went to visit my dad once and he showed me these love letters of them between them. When they were separated. My grandfather was stationed in Seattle, and she was in Augusta pregnant with their first child, and I sobbed reading those letters because it was like they had an epic love story. They had such a grand, beautiful romance. And it was a light in which I have never, ever recognized them before. And to understand that about people from whom you descend is a very beautiful thing, a very proud thing, and it's a freeing thing. And I think that's what happens with milkman when he kind of and it's finally understanding putting the pieces together of who his family is. There's have pride and there's a freedom. There's an exhilaration, and he wants to share it with everyone. It was a very beautiful thing.

Traci Thomas 25:08

Yeah. I just love that she does that for both milkman and for Megan's character, right? Like, she gives him this redemptive arc to the reader. And like, he's still maybe is like, not the greatest guy. But maybe he's not the worst guy. And like, maybe he was kind of cool. And you know, shit happens. And he's working on his own stuff. And like, whatever.

Dawnie Walton 25:30

Absolutely, yeah, he's suddenly more around. And he's suddenly there are things to admire about everything that he overcame.

Traci Thomas 25:41

Yeah, on the flip of that, did you feel like throughout the book, that milkman became more or less sympathetic for you?

Dawnie Walton 25:53

He started off sympathetic, got less sympathetic by the point where he was basically like, treating Hagar like trash. And then a little, it was sort of like peaks and valleys for me in terms of this empathy. By the end, I was sort of liking him again. But there were moments where I was really, again, like saying, How dare you to him as a character, right, and especially when it came to pilot, and, you know, again, another scene where she goes to basically save him in a guitar at the police station. And she does what she has to do. And he's like, Oh, disgusting, Oh, gross, you know, and doesn't realize what it is that she's doing for him. And in those in the same thing, the way he sort of takes hay gars love for granted like not saying that he like they should have been together or anything like that, but the way that he was with her and that whole family unit, you know, the fact that him and guitar go to in an attempt to rob them like he's just there moments where I really disliked the character, and yet the story was so compelling that I was definitely along for that ride.

Traci Thomas 27:19

Yeah, I, I feel like milkman is, by far my least favorite or interesting character in the book. Yeah. Like I was the least interested in him. in basically every scene, like for me, I just was like, Okay. I just was sort of like, Dad to me, and like, not that he doesn't have depth or like development. But it was always I was always more interested in what the people in the room were going Oh, yeah. With him than I ever was in him. And like, I think that this is my, this might be controversial, but I was not super tied up in the Hagar stuff. Yeah, except for there's the one seen, you know, she goes out and she buys all the nice things. And she like, yeah, I was in the mod, and then she comes home and she likes to use herself and then she doesn't like and then she realizes that she is a mess. And then she dies. Yes, seeing of herself as the mass was like very emotional for me. But the rest, like I was the least interested in her because her story was the most tied up and milkman if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, like for me, milkman was just I, I just wasn't, I don't know, he just was the least interesting to me.

Dawnie Walton 28:35

Yeah. And I think, I don't know, I wonder if that was by design in a way because he is sort of like this cipher moving through these different worlds. And you don't always know what he's going through. But there are a lot of very colorful characters around him. And he's, it's like, he's just trying to like figure something out. And you're not always sure what that thing is. But yeah, I would agree that like, I think, you know, if I'm thinking of all the characters, he's by far, you're right. He's kind of the least interesting. And it's just for me, yeah. All the things that he's discovering along the way. That's what's interesting. And honestly, I could have I could have read a whole other novel about PILOTs family unit, pilot, and Reba and Hagar like that whole thing. I wanted to know more about the winemaking and like all of those things.

Traci Thomas 29:34

1,000%. I'm surprised there isn't like a book that is someone else's attempt at like writing them, you know, like how there's like that book Scarlet that's like, O'Hara after like Margaret Mitchell's book. Okay, speaking of favorites, or at least favorites, who was your favorite character?

Dawnie Walton 29:50

Oh, pilot, pilot. She just leapt off the page for me. That scene where she's got the knife to pick ice, wrote it for having taken advantage of Reba, I just thought that she was a beautiful character and she was an adventurous character and a very kind and very invested in her family. And kind to Ruth when nobody else was has been kind to Ruth, you know? Yeah. Um, so I loved her and I loved all those things that marked her those weird things. Although I had difficulty picturing the earring. Did you did too. Yeah, I had trouble seeing what that looks was.

Traci Thomas 30:37

It was a box that was hanging from her ear.

Dawnie Walton 30:41

Yeah. And it happened.

Traci Thomas 30:44

But I was it was a piece of paper with her. Right? Yeah. So I was like, on a very unimaginative, unimaginative, you know, I had a little dangling earring with a small box. Piece of paper, like a little rectangle. Like I didn't come up with something wasn't like, elaborate to me at all.

Dawnie Walton 31:02

Yeah, yeah, I would. I would love if somebody sketched it like I would love to see.

Traci Thomas 31:07

Please send us your drawings. This is now an art submission. We will we will pick our winner. i Yeah. For me, like I said, milkman was my least I was least interested in milk man, which is so weird, because he is clearly the center of the story. But it's also sort of great. But I think my favorite was a good tar. Yeah. Yeah, I loved him. I love I mean, so here's a funny story. So a friend of mine, Reggie, who loves this book, and is a big reader, and he was on Bookstagram. And he's been pushing me to read this forever. And he used to always talk about it as the great, you know, anti hero novel. So I'm reading the book. And the whole time, I'm thinking that I'm supposed to understand that milkman is the antihero is he is the lead of the of the book. And to me, like when I think anti hero, I think that the lead has to be unlikable, right? Like a bad protagonist or whatever and antagonist in the lead role. So like any Iago like I mentioned, something like that. So I'm like, Hold on, I'm reading the book. I'm like, I don't know. He's a great anti hero. Like he seems kind of like just the hero like, yeah. And then I finally reached out to me at the end, and he's like, No, you idiot. It was a guitar. And I was like, Oh, I didn't feel like he. I don't think that he's an antihero, either. He he was a hero to me as well. Like, I read him like, and I think maybe that's the context of now, but I read him very admirably. And I was very, like, Pro guitar. I don't. I mean, I know that in the end, like he's trying to kill milkman. But, you know, I don't disagree with that either.

Dawnie Walton 32:51

Gitar is a great character. And the whole seven days story was so that whole, the few pages of dialogue where he's sort of telling milkman about the seven days, so gripping and so like, immediately, for me also, that was the part where I was like, Oh, my God, this novel is not going to end in a good place. What's going to happen? It was so suspenseful, and so provocative, really provocative. And I sort of wonder, I would love to go back and look at some of that old criticism of song Solomon when it came out to see what people made of that. Because it is very, you know, yeah, very political. Pretty radical. But fascinating. And I do feel like, like, when you say anti here, I immediately think of like television shows, like Breaking Bad. Yeah, and I can, I can absolutely see like, a series about the seven days.

Traci Thomas 34:00

Yes, a series about Gitar. I can see that as a thorough journey. Yeah, I love. I love that scene. I also loved the ways in which Gitar challenged milkman, because I think that they were so similar, you know, and like, I think that it almost becomes like two sides of a coin arguing with each other. And like, yes, they're very different. And I have these different upbringings. And I feel like it just felt like I think it was like maybe a metaphor for the black community, in a sense of like, you have black folks that think like we need to work within the system. We need to do this and that like the milkman side, then you have the other side. That is the guitar side. That's like, Fuck this. They're killing us. They don't care about us. Why do we care about them, but also even more like the scene before we get the explanation of the seven days where they're talking about Emmett Till I mean, that scene, I it stopped me dead in my tracks because I up until that point, I don't remember any reference that I recognized as real life. Yeah, yeah. And so then when it's like, oh, did you hear about the boy who winked at the woman? And at first I'm like, Oh, this kind of sounds like Emmett Till. And then you realize that she's actually really writing about.

Dawnie Walton 35:16

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 35:16

And I was like, holy shit. Like that, for me was death. That was the moment in the book for me where I was like, Oh, right. Okay. Like, this is not just a story. Like, this is more anatomy, not just a story. But you know what I'm saying? Like, this is not this is not make believe that these are very real characters living in the actual world that I live in. Right. And that to me was really jarring in a good way. Yeah. Yes, so bold. And then like, as it unravels, and you know, we get the church bombing later. It was like, oh, okay, so we're doing this. And like, there was okay, there's one part in the book. Well, let me ask you it this way. Were there any scenes that weren't in the book that you wish she would have written?

Dawnie Walton 36:07

Ooh. I think I always loved being with the women a lot. And I sort of wanted, I wanted more. I was really into the Corinthians story. And I wanted a little bit more with that. I mean, you learn by the end that she does, she does stay with that. The other guy who's in the seven days, I can't remember. I can't remember say, Muller. Yeah, but it was so like, fraught earlier, and everything that I kind of like, I kind of like wanted a little bit more of that. Yeah, but other than that, like, I felt very satisfied.

Traci Thomas 36:46

The only scene that stood out to me is like, I really would love to have read it is what the tar did immediately after they were released from Oh, robbery. Right? That was the scene where like, I think milkman kept like being like, I gotta go find guitar. I gotta go find guitar and like we see him with. And then we can't repress name Corinthians boyfriend. And like when he realizes that there? Yeah, corridor. Yeah, right. Right. Right. When they're all together, like anything that happens shortly after the robbery. I want to know like, what guitar was saying, like, I want to know what kind of shit he was talking. I want to know, like, I wanted to be with guitar a little more. I wanted to know sort of how he flipped fully on milkman because like, yeah, milkman was like a little bit for a while, like he knew that. But like that was his friend and like he was going to be fine with it. And unlike his daddy's rich, he doesn't know better. But I feel like somewhere around the time of the botched robbery after they have the conversation. And like, basically, milkman admits to like, kind of being disgusted by black people. And like kind of believing in the boot. bootstraps politics of it. I kind of want to know like, where guitar goes who he talks to who he really is like, Fuck milkman. I'm fucking tired of that guy. Like, I just wanted that scene and like how he would explain it because I loved how he explained so much of like, the racial politics. Yeah, of what was going on with those murders. And the seventh day like I just more Yeah, and that should surprise exactly zero people that the part that I wanted more of was the murderous call. Who was avenging racism. Like, of course, my favorite part of the novel.

Dawnie Walton 38:30

Yeah. Right. Because, you know, one of the things that I really did enjoy about the earlier sections in the novel was sort of the, the friendship and the warmth that existed between milkman and guitar, and I was kind of interested in how he just totally did not trust him. You know, and I don't know if that was him, becoming bonded in a different and deeper way with the other men in the seven days or if it was thinking that, you know, milkman is just like his daddy or like, you know what exactly it was. You're right.

Traci Thomas 40:45

Okay, more Song of Solomon, I just realized that I never did the like, here's what the book is about. But you know what? Fuck you. If you haven't read it, you don't know what it's about, like, not my job. My job is to talk about the book. I sorry, I can't be bothered. Okay, one of the things I have, like so many things I want to talk about. And then now I'm trying to go through my list of like, what do I absolutely have to talk about? We touched on this in the beginning. But I do want to ask you, if you feel like Song of Solomon is a feminist novel?

Dawnie Walton 41:16

I do think that it is. And I think there was there was one line that I took note of, and it's sort of this realization. And the realization comes from milk man's perspective, but it's from the beginning, his mother and pilot had fought for his life. And he had never so much as made either of them a cup of tea. And I said, Yeah, motherfucker. I, I think that it was very aware of the sacrifices that women make, and the boxes they are in, and the power that that men have. And I think there's that beautiful moment when Magdalena called Lena, as we referred to earlier, is sort of, you know, telling of man exactly about himself. And I thought for a character who is so minor. In the earlier sections of the book, I can't really remember much about her. It's like her and Corinthians are always kind of paired together in the earlier parts of the book, but then there's that moment where they kind of like they pop out and really passionate and crucial ways to the text into to sort of understanding milkman a little bit more from this outside perspective. But yeah, I do think it's a feminist text in that way, sort of recognizing the power imbalances, understanding that, you know, it's really kind of fucked up and really haven't women were must misunderstood and kind of punished in a way emotionally for the things that they felt or for their desire. So yeah. What about what do you think?

Traci Thomas 43:19

I think so. I mean, I think we sort of talked about this about like the maleness of the novel. And I think that, as I said, milkman is the least interesting person in the book for me. And I think that all of that is part of it. That like she's written this book about men and about like, paternal lineage, and yet still, the women are the ones that do everything. Like there is no milkman without Ruth and Pilate. Yeah, right, coming together to like, take action to make this thing happen. I think, like, the way in which obvious I think like the obvious stuff that's like, this is feminist is like Pilate and Reba and Hagar like having their own business and living on their own and like going off and thriving and like, you know, all of that seems very obvious. But I also think like, Hagar dying of love for milkman is weirdly feminist. Yeah. And like, I think that obviously Lina speech to milkman where she, you know, read him his rights again, like deeply, obviously feminist stuff. And I think like milkman being so I don't even know the right word being soy, milk toast, if you like being being so like malleable at the hands of the women in his life. Like, there's another version of that scene where Lena tells milkman about himself and milkman says, No, you listen here, sister and goes off on her right like an instead he takes it in and is like, wow, I don't even think we get his opinion on it. Like, it's just like, it's his opinion isn't important. It's not important what he says it's important that she gets to say it. And I feel like those types of like that that type of like construct for these scenes is what? Like, we don't ever really hear too much about what Megan thinks of the fact that he was sort of duped into having a baby. Besides that he was not happy about it. But we get to hear so much about how important it was to the women. And so I think that that is what makes it a feminist novel that even though our protagonist and our alleged antihero, and our villain and Megan are all the male characters, it's the women characters that really are making everything happen.

Dawnie Walton 45:39

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I you know, this is a book that when I reached the end like I just wanted to go back to that beginning scene and read it again with-

Traci Thomas 45:49

I did I did.

Dawnie Walton 45:51

You have to talk about what that was like. But to have that context to see. All the women are so important to that opening scene. Yeah, the women saying you have the girls dropping the rose petals, you have Ruth going into labor. The women are everything in that scene.

Traci Thomas 46:12

Yeah. But you know what else is in that scene for me that stuck out and stuck out with me also in Sula is, so we talked about plot scenes, we talked about character development, but also place is like such a Toni Morrison thing. And like what stuck out to me was the not Dr. Street of it all. Yeah, because that also like that, that humor, which it's funny, but it's also like, specifically black funny, yes. You know what I mean? Like, it is so black to have a place that is that's named after a person and then they tell you know, you can't call a doctor straight. And they're like, fine, it's not doctors. And like, That reminded me so much of the bottom in Sula, where it's like, yeah, black people were lied to, they were told, Oh, you're at the bottom, like, you're like, This is the best place. But it was really the worst place. And they called it the bottom, but it was the top of the hill. I'm like that humor too. And like, the way that she creates these places, that's what stuck out to me on my reread even more than the women was like this place. That is fiction that has the history of a real place, because only a real place has like jokes like that, you know, jokes about like the location. And I'm sure like most black folks who are listening can think of a few places in their city or their town that have like, specifically black nicknames that all the black people use, and like the white people don't, or like the non black people don't. And I just love that because it feels so real. And she's given this like, deeply personal detail, to fictionalize place, and like she didn't have to. Yeah, it's like, they could have just been on Main Street or whatever.

Dawnie Walton 47:47

Right? It makes it feel so rich and lived in generations of black folks here. And yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it.

Traci Thomas 47:59

I love that too. Okay, I want to talk a little bit. So we've really been focusing on the first half of the novel, which is sort of the like, coming of age story part of it. And then there's this split, and there's part two. And of course, when there's ever a part two, I always take the note in the moment, why is the book split here? And about five pages into part two? I was like, oh, because this is a completely different book, like it was. So I was like, This is so clear to me. What did you think of the Odyssey part of all of it? The the mythology of the Flying Africans, like the whole, like, back half of the book and how it unraveled, how was that for you?

Dawnie Walton 48:36

So I, if I were going to, which is impossible, I can't read a book for the first time. But when I reread this book, which I will do at some point, I would actually take a piece of paper and sort of do like a family tree and sort of like because I did find it. I loved it. I loved kind of the mythology part of it. I loved the indigenous and sort of African like things that were coming into the text, but I just kind of tracing the lineage and tracing the towns he was in. I know that it was all there and it all makes sense, but it was hard to hold in my head all together at once.

Traci Thomas 49:19

Yeah, I got a little confused with the names of everybody as well. I loved having milkman out of his home. Yeah, like I loved watching milk man, like trying to like figure it out. I was definitely confused a little bit. I think also part of it is because Solomon and then like Solly Man or whatever the name of the song was, was like a little confusing to me. And like I definitely had family tree issues. But I liked that we like got to go it was like the reverse migration story, right, like going back to the south and like going back to find their family and I definitely have like fantasies about that myself. almost like going back, and I tried to go back and like find my family tree and whatever, but like, you know, unfortunately, the story of black Americans is a lot harder than you might think. But so I definitely had, like, fantasies about milkman being able to do that. And I texted a friend when I finished the book, and I'm sure people will have their own opinions about this. So I'm curious what you think. But I said, I feel like that was sort of a happy ending. And apparently, I guess that's not no one else feels that way. But for me, I felt like it was a hopeful ending that like, they were able to find their family and like, have some sense of where they came from and who they were. And yeah, who the first makin dad was, and that he was Jacob, and that, that there was a wife and who she was and how the name like, all of that stuff. To me. Solomon was a rebel and he flicked flew in the face of slavery and like us confines and, and that even though he left his family, I get it. Don't leave your family, if you you know, can help it. But also, I just felt very hopeful. At the end of the book, like black people, we can fly, we can create a new future, we can create our new names, our new identities, we can have a farm, we can have a family, like our generations can thrive, like all of that, to me is how I read the end of the book and I nose pilot dies and not sad and maybe maybe milkman dies too. And that's less sad to me. But the end? I don't know, it was a happy ending for me. I don't know how you feel about that.

Dawnie Walton 51:44

I think the tone was almost one of wonder. Yeah, yes. It was the wonder he had, understanding who his people were and where they came from. But that very last paragraph, that very last sentence. For now, he knew what Shalimar knew if you surrender to the air, you could ride it with that ride, italicize, and there's video somewhere of Toni Morrison reading these last pages, and she feeds her faces illuminate it and there's such a it's definitely like, it's almost as if he's kind of reading team knows the truth. The scales have fallen from his eyes, he has a deeper understanding. And he just sort of jumps into the air. And that's where we end. So you know, I don't know, happy? It's difficult to say. But I do think there's a sense of wonder there and a sense of freedom, in a way.

Traci Thomas 52:51

Yeah. Which is what you know, she says she's writing to in this book, she's writing about freedom. And so I definitely feel like that was there. I as we mentioned before, sort of when the whole stuff with the seven days came out, I didn't think that the book would end in a way that felt at all, like, positive. It. You know, I know that Hagar dies. I know the pilot is like, I know that it's kind of a tragedy, but it doesn't end tragically. You know, it ends on this note of sort of like, things will continue. There is a future which is not you know, the bleak ending of Macbeth like I mentioned before, like it is not Macbeth like it is not Shakespeare it's something different and and more complicated and more interesting. And for me, considerably more hopeful. Do you have a sense of what happens is does does guitar shoot. Milkman? Does milkman die does milkman shoot guitar? Like what is the what is your vision?

Dawnie Walton 53:54

I don't know. I was just picturing milkman kind of jumping to his death is what I imagined. I don't think guitar shoots him. I think he's trying to shoot, right? He hits him. But something you just said, you know, the sense that things are going to continue and go on. One of the things that I thought was so interesting about this book is basically this line of family is dying. They don't have children, like none of them. You know, like the women are. First Corinthians and Magdalena called Lena are still there in their 40s and still living at home and, you know, milkman is How old is he when the book ends?

Traci Thomas 54:43

30 something, 30 something?

Dawnie Walton 54:45

Yeah. And so like, I just I don't know, and Hagar is dead, and Hagar stead and I don't think you know, Riva is going to have any more children. So what do you think? Make of that if anything.

Traci Thomas 55:01

I hadn't thought about it. But now my hopeful ending feels considerably. Thanks, Donnie. Literally airing the day before Thanksgiving so much to be thankful for. No, you're right. Well, that makes it actually considerably more bleak because then you think all of this is for naught, right? Like, he goes back to find his family history, and then he dies. And there's no one to share it with.

Dawnie Walton 55:28

Or maybe it sort of gives the, it sort of gives a sense of completion, which in a way is its own kind of like, not happy per se, but just like, this is how this ends, like. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, that was just something that was occurring to me.

Traci Thomas 55:49

I love it. I love it. I do love that. It's true. There's no offspring from the generation, that generation. And so that also means it's the end of not Dr. Dr. Seuss family. Right. Yeah. Because those are, because Ruth was the only child. Right, right. It was an only child, I believe.

Dawnie Walton 56:12

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 56:17

Wow, that's a bummer. I don't know how to end this episode. I'd like to end on a hopeful note.

Dawnie Walton 56:24

Yeah, well, I did have one thing I wanted to mention about guitar. One of my favorite things about him actually, in thinking about going back and reading the beginning after you read the ending is to see him as a little boy. And how he corrects the nurses spelling words, you remember that?

Traci Thomas 56:44

I don't; let me go look.

Dawnie Walton 56:46

And it's like, in that moment, there's also a description of his eyes is like splashes of gold. And I was like, this is a character that is a character to remember.

Traci Thomas 56:58

Oh, yes, granny. Shalom, not an S. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Dawnie Walton 57:03

And to please, his grandmother, but I just love getting to know those characters again. Yeah, different time with all the knowledge that we accumulate throughout the book.

Traci Thomas 57:17

How are you on the Bible? See, I'm terrible. I'm Jewish. I don't know a lot of this stuff. I tried to like, look up more about the names in the book, like, Yeah, I know. I know who Pilate is because, you know, can't see Jesus Christ Superstar without that. But I know who Ruth is Old Testament, but I don't know what a Corinthian. I know what the first I know that. There's First and Second Corinthians. But I don't know what bn is. And I'm assuming Magdalena is like, isn't that Mary? Mary? Ellen? Yeah. I wish I knew the Bible better, because I would love to do like a whole thing on that. But I I'm not the person. And I guess you're not even.

Dawnie Walton 58:01

I'm not. But you know, I think this, this leads into like, what I think is one of the brilliant things about Morrison and it ties into what we were talking about earlier about PILOTs naval, not having a naval. For me, symbolism only works when it is also working at like a literal level where you don't, it doesn't have to have deeper meaning. And if it does, it's just something that's additional that is sort of enhancing of the text, but it works anyway. And I just love this family tradition of just opening the Bible and sticking your finger and that is what you name your children. Yeah, I just loved it as like a family detail piece of their legacy. And you don't have to know anything further. And I honestly like I thought about kind of trying to research it a little bit before this, this episode, but I was like, Ah, I don't know.

Traci Thomas 59:01

Kind of okay, yeah, I wouldn't have had the same thing of like, I want to look into this. And then I was like, I really don't have the range. Even if someone explained it to me, it's just not part of my knowledge base. But the same thing for like Song of Solomon. I guess the Song of Solomon in the Bible is like a love poem. And it's very much I guess it is sort of that in the book like the story, but it's not because it's about Solomon leaving or Shalimar, whatever you want to call him leaving his wife and his family and that she's so sad and he's, you know, transcendent and she's in now in the like, ravines crying, but Right, I did think about like, trying to figure it out more, but like you I similarly was like, I don't I don't know that it would make sense to me. I think that if you have that biblical background, it probably is really cool and interesting, because Tony Morrison doesn't do anything that's not cool and interesting, but I need someone to like actually teach me this stuff. And I don't know that I will in this lifetime.

Dawnie Walton 1:00:00

Yeah, same. I think you have to have like some intrinsic knowledge. You know, it's sort of like calculus where everything is sort of built on like basic theorems and they just keep building on each other. Don't like you can't just like jump in.

Traci Thomas 1:00:14

I feel like yeah, I feel Yeah, I got like Dante Stewart to come, like, teach a course on the news and Song of Solomon, because I feel like he could definitely do it. He would know, Dante, that's your invitation if you're listening. Yeah. Okay, before we go, the last thing that I, that I just want to talk about briefly, which we just kind of transitioned to anyways, is the title. And I would say the cover, but there's so many different editions. And I don't think that the cover actually matters at this point. But I'm curious if you had thoughts about sort of the title of the book.

Dawnie Walton 1:00:51

Well, I think that it was another mystery that I knew that Toni Morrison was going to get to eventually, and she gets to it rather late with the children in the town singing the song, but I was fine with that, like, because I knew that I was gonna get to that point. And I knew, but I feel like there's something really epic about about it, to call it to have a book and say it's song, a song. Song of Solomon, I think it's beautiful. I wish that I knew more again, biblically about all the implications of that.

Traci Thomas 1:01:36

But yeah, yeah, I like the title to it just made me remember the one thing that I did want to mention, I loved the twist of making dead one, Jacob, telling pilot coming to pilot and telling her to sing. And her thinking that he's saying to saying, and she and he is saying the name of his wife, sing, sing, sing, sing. And I just I loved that. Because that too, feels like such a nod to black oral history, right? Where it's like, you have a grandparent or great grandparent or something, and there's a story about them. And then you do a little bit of research and you realize that like that's legitimately not what happened at all, but like the oral history, that the legend of the family is so much better and, and meaningful and like gave meaning to so many people's lives like pilot sings his her whole life, because of this thing that she's misinterpreted, and has passed on. And she's told Hagar and she's told Reba and she's told the milkman and she's told everybody about how her father came to her and told her to sing, to sing to sing. And like, I just, it's beautiful. It is like that these little misinterpretations of like, oral history, family history can be the things that define you essentially, yeah, she starts out the book singing.

Dawnie Walton 1:02:59

And they become so special, and in a spun off way from me, you know, and part of the legacy.

Traci Thomas 1:03:07

Yeah. And that that twist also comes so late in the book, and it's so gratifying. And that it's like, at one moment, you're like, Ah, it's like a take your breath away moment, sort of.

Dawnie Walton 1:03:20

I loved it, too.

Traci Thomas 1:03:21

Is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you wanted to before we get out of here?

Dawnie Walton 1:03:26

Oh, my gosh. Well, I loved finally, you know, when Toni Morrison passed away, of course, like, we were all very devastated all of us who read her and love her and take so much wisdom from her. And it was a moment where, you know, lots of people were posting quotes of hers. And I have to say, it was a stunning moment. When I saw the one quote, You know what I'm talking about? Yes. from Qatar from your favorite. Yeah, you want to fly, you got to give up the shit that weighs you down. And it was beautiful to see that in context.

Traci Thomas 1:04:01

Yeah, there's a few quotes from this one. I can't remember all of them. But there were a few where I was like, Oh, I know that. Right. That was really fun. I have to say, in the spirit of me, I wouldn't be me if I didn't do this. I hate to do it. Now after talking about this great quote. There was one part of the book that I just could not buy. Let's hear it. I just could not get to a place that made sense that the gold was the thing that would make guitar hate milkman. It just felt so forced and like Vyas and like, not a Toni Morrison choice. Like Like it was like oh, you're really upset about like, some gold that you didn't even know about and like, isn't even yours that you guys fucked up the robbery on and it's enough to make you follow it like I just I like it was the one piece of the book where I was like, I don't know, any writer could do this like just didn't feel like Toni Morrison to me.

Dawnie Walton 1:05:03

Well, I think it speaks to that piece that you wanted more information around. Yeah, about how the sort of separation between them really came to be because, like, we're, you know, we he wants the money to fund this operation. Right. And I think it has something to do with like him thinking that you know, milkman, milkman is not down for this cause and he is actually like, fucking up our chance to do to get this retribution. And but it's not really on the page. Like it requires you to kind of like to kind of dream into that and what he might be thinking. But yeah, yeah, I also because they were so close. Right. And they did disagree about a lot of things. And it was usually like, it was usually okay. Yeah. And so for this to be the thing, I get that.

Traci Thomas 1:05:56

Yeah, I think maybe I just wanted I just wanted that one scene so bad. Or like, I wanted guitar to just fuckin tell him just to say to him like, you're nothing and like you stole you know, I don't know, I just, it was the only part of the book where I was like, I'm not obsessed. But, but I mean, everything else I loved. I hate to go out on this note, but you know, I've done it. I've done it. Anyways. Donnie, this was so awesome. Thank you so much for talking Song of Solomon and being so great to discuss this book that has a million things to discuss in it.

Dawnie Walton 1:06:33

Oh, thank you so much for inviting me to talk about this book. It was again, a blessing to read this book. Thank you.

Traci Thomas 1:06:41

Yay. And everyone else we will see you in The Stacks. Thank you all for listening. And thank you so much to Dawnie Walton for being my guest today. The Stacks book club pick for December is my favorite book of the year A Little Devil in America: notes in praise of black performance by Hanif Abdurraqib. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 29. And you can tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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