Ep. 193 Betting on the Kids with Angelina Jolie and Tokata Iron Eyes

Written By Lauren Tyree

AJ Photo: Rozette Rago

Angelina Jolie, actor-director-humanitarian, and Indigenous activist Tokata Iron Eyes join Traci to discuss Jolie's book Know Your Rights an Claim Them: A Guide for Youth, which she wrote with Geraldine Van Bueren and Amnesty International. The conversation is a candid discussion with two people who are helping to shape the dialogue around activism, especially when it comes to the global rights of children, and the ways activism permeates all facets of life.

The Stacks Book Club selection for December is A Little Devil in America: Notes in Praise of Black Performance by Hanif Abdurraqib. We will discuss the book on December 29th with Andrew Ti.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Angelina Jolie 0:09
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and I am thrilled to tell you about today’s episode. Today we are joined by two incredible guests, Angelina Jolie and Tokata Iron Eyes. Angelina Jolie. Yes, that one, is the well known actor, director and humanitarian and one of the authors of Know Your Rights and Claim Them: A Guide for Youth. A book she co-wrote with Geraldine Van Buren and Amnesty International that is all about the rights of children and how young people can learn what rights they are afforded and make changes in their communities. Tokata Iron Eyes is a Native American activist who rose to prominence for her efforts of organizing against the Dakota Access Pipeline. We talked today about the book and the ways young people have the power to affect real change. The Stacks book club pick for December is A Little Devil in America by Hanif Abdurraqib. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 29. With Andrew Ti. All right, now let’s talk with Tokata Iron Eyes and Angelina Jolie.

All right, you guys, I am so excited. Today I am joined with actor, author, activist Angelina Jolie and youth activist Tokata Iron Eyes. Ladies, welcome to The Stacks.

Angelina Jolie 1:53
Thank you.

Tokata Iron Eyes 1:55
Yeah, thanks for having us.

Angelina Jolie 1:57
I’m really excited because today we’re talking about Know Your Rights and Claim Them: A Guide for Youth that was written by Angelina Jolie, Amnesty International and Geraldine Van Buren. And Tokata, you’re joining us to kind of speak to the actual work that young people are doing and can be doing. So it’s sort of a mashup today of the author side and the activist side, which I’m very excited about. So we’ll start where we always start, which is in about 30 seconds or so can you tell us about the book?

Oh, I’ve never done this. The book, you know, it says authored by but really what it is, is it’s a it’s a toolkit, and it’s a book of gathering other stories of work, like Tokata’s and the young activists and the people around the world and really basing it centered on the rights of a child, which, you know, when when you start to question, what are the rights? How do children actually access these rights? What’s actually getting in the way of these rights? And what can they do and trying to think about children around the world and the different ways they may need to approach this? This this lack of access. So that’s what it is. And that’s how it was, it was formed.

I love to go to I called you a youth activist, but I think that’s dumb and pejorative, so. I don’t know, you’re an activist. I think that that just said it, because it’s written down in front of me, but I feel like it’s sort of silly, right? Does that annoy you a little bit at all?

Tokata Iron Eyes 3:23
I mean, I think both of the parts actually kind of, like, annoy me a bit like youth and activist. Like yeah, no, I’ve never. I mean, there’s just like, there’s the part, right? Where, like, my childhood, and like, my youth, you know, sort of got taken from me, because of the work that I’ve done. Like, I really had to grow up fast, in accordance to the responsibilities that were growing, you know, and then like, yeah, activist like, it never felt like, I guess, like, such an occupation. You know, I guess it’s just, again, like an obligation, something that was inherent, but it’s also the way that everyone introduces me. So I don’t want to make you feel like, you know, that’s just the you thing, because it’s not.

Angelina Jolie 4:12
I could probably be doing better. I can’t be responsible for everyone else. But why don’t you just tell me how you would like to be referred to? What’s your dream?

Tokata Iron Eyes 4:21
Um, I think I mean, honestly, just like my name. I mean, I think that’s pretty basic. And then I think people can like, figure it out from there. Mostly also be like, I’ve not figured it out from there.

Angelina Jolie 4:37
I love that idea that you’re still figuring it out. Because I think that I’m still figuring them out. I mean, I just think that’s so relatable. Okay, we’re gonna jump back kind of start with the book. So the frame of the book, as you mentioned, Angelina, are the rights of children that were agreed upon at the UN Convention for the Rights of children. And one of the things that at I found really interesting. And I did learn a lot reading this book, I’m sort of embarrassed to say I thought maybe I would know more. I learned a lot and writing it. There’s, there’s a lot. I was taking a lot of notes. But can you explain a little bit to people how children’s rights are different than general human rights, because I found that really interesting.

I probably won’t say it the way in the book, I don’t remember. But what I under what has landed with me is what any rights is for what anybody’s you know, the the base of why rights exist is so a human being can can become the full human being, they should be without restriction and abuse. And so a child is in these very formative years. And so their rights are so much more important. Because their growth and this time is so precious and so important. And their voices are so important. And their protection is so important, because they are becoming they’re growing. And this is that formative time. And they and they have human rights, they are human within the human rights, that’s the child, but the child has these other rights, because they need to be considered in a special category because of the sensitivity of what it is to be growing up. And so it’s not that these rights came out of wouldn’t it be nice to give them some of this? Or wouldn’t it be nice to give them that the rights are in order for a child to grow into a healthy adult? What is the base, and without this base, we know it’s going to be damaging. This is what we know we know mental health, emotional health science, physical protection, all these, we know that these are that this base is there, because this is the best shot of this child becoming a healthy human being a healthy adult. And it makes sense everything you read every right makes perfect sense. You read in any intelligent person says of course, yeah, of course. And so it’s from that, that then we look through the lens of children’s rights, human rights and abuses around the world, instead of kind of picking one at a time, oh, well, this person is being assaulted for this or this, there’s rape and conflict over here, or there’s lack of land rights over here or this, this child should go to school. It’s not it’s not one piece of, you know, injustice at a time. It’s all collected in all of this, the bits is asking everybody to go back to the base treatment, and then look at what is being taken from children, their childhood, or the rights to their body, or their voices, or their freedoms or their land was being taken and seeing it in a more aggressive way as an assault on them. Not just that it would be nice if they had the right to play or write to it’s not nice. It’s an assault on them, that these things are stripped from them and removed from them because we know it’s necessary for their health.

Yeah. One of the things that I found really interesting, I mean, there’s so much on there. But one of the things I find really interesting that in the United States, they actually haven’t signed on to ratify this charter this document from the UN. Anybody have any ideas? Why not? Anybody thoughts? Cuz I have a lot of thoughts. I have a lot of questions, but I’m hoping

Tokata has a lot of thoughts on that one.

Tokata Iron Eyes 8:08
Yeah, well, because people have too much stock built into the labor of young people already within the United States. And so much of it is free and is completely stolen. Like, as an activist, like I worked for free from the time that I was like, 12 until around like 16, you know, just completely unpaid, doing several different things for various different organizations that were, like very much established. And I didn’t ever know that it was actually something I needed to be paid for, until I started talking to other young people who were being paid for it and had been doing it and had realized that it was an industry far sooner on you know, and also like, they’re, I think they were just like, child labor laws that were like, violated in like Texas or some shit like, like, they were like 14 year olds, it was like, making sure that like 13 and like 14 year olds can like work later hours. Can like there. It’s just like, people, people are not ready to actively admit that we’ve not actually made very much progress. I mean, I’m sure that not a lot of people know, at least within the US about the UN, you know, gathering of child rights at all, or or that that is even an assembly that happened or that we’re violating it in any way. Like, you know, it’s not actually I don’t think I’d have ill intent. It’s just simply out of like, a mass miseducation.

Traci Thomas 9:52
Which is why it’s great that this book exists.

Tokata Iron Eyes 9:55
Which is why it’s awesome. Yeah.

Angelina Jolie 9:57
I think what ends up happening is it’s part of what you what she said, which is adults have to be willing. A lot of times when you look at why someone’s rights are not given to them, it’s somebody’s benefiting somehow. And if you really try to track it, so who benefits when children in America don’t have these rights? You can you can force them to do more work. Maybe a parent doesn’t want to give up these rights because they want to put their child at work or profit from them. Maybe they I know, voicing court is a very important one. Right?

Tokata Iron Eyes 10:29
Or like, if we’re talking, you know, about rights to a clean future, or if future at all. And then you start talking about like, as an indigenous person, like, for me what it means to identify like, as a woman, and also like, not to be seen as a child anymore. I mean, I know that they say that like, right, but like, the UN, like us caucus stuff goes into, like, kind of egregiously late, like it’s like, 27 one, I don’t want to say that, but that’s it’s past 1818, like legally, right? Like, I can be tried as an adult now. So there’s like, so there’s at least that, um, yeah, and it’s, it’s sort of crazy, I guess, to imagine, but as an indigenous person, like, my rights are different, you know, like, again, which is why like, this sort of book is so important, because it doesn’t actually, it’s not set up for one individual, right, it’s set up so that people internationally can look at this as a guide to protests and to civil disobedience in a way that is safe in a way that is at least assured. Right, like, by going through it that like choosing a path based on the evidence there will not bring you at least like bodily harm. The rest is up to you. You know what I mean? Like, I’m sure that like, I’ll go to many protests and have have that choice to make myself. But yeah, and I think it’s just like a good introduction. I think protest is something that sounds scary to a lot of young people, because it’s so villainized in the mainstream, I guess all you really hear about is like riots, you don’t think actually immediately like Revolution, when you think protests nowadays, you think about like, burning property and different things. I mean, if you’re like, I guess an average American, I would say like that is the main concern, it seems. And to just give people like access point to this, this work for themselves to realize, right, that it’s not actually that anyone should be making enemies of each other, but that we have dignity and like, we can protect that for ourselves, no matter what age we are.

Angelina Jolie 12:48
Yeah, I think that that’s one of the things that stuck out to me about the book was, it is I mean, the subtitle says it’s a guide for youth, but it really is a guide. And it’s not just a guide, and the way that it’s like, follow these steps, and you can change the world. But it’s like, look at this young person who’s the same age as you right now. Or maybe they’re doing something that interests you, or something that you’re passionate about. And these are the things that they did that may or may not seem extraordinary, depending on where you’re coming from. But these are the things that young people did. And these are the things that young people are doing all over the world. I love that the book is inclusive of so many children and young people all over the world. Because at least in my experience, as an American, it becomes so American centric and becomes obsessed with the problems and the issues of America. But the problems and the issues are interconnected, they’re global. And you can’t have one without the other. So I really appreciated that as a point of inspiration as well. And just that some of the things that popped into my mind about why the US wouldn’t want to ratify this also had a lot to do with with the police, gun control, prisons, prison abolition and those kinds of industries, health care and those industries, when you talk about who’s benefiting. Okay, I’m curious, Angelina, when did you start working on this project as a book? And has it changed from what you set out to write?

Well, I started, I mean, I’ve been so I’ve been working with UN and traveling into the field of work with the refugee agency for about 20 years. And so, you know, you jump into this, this is why I say it’s not really one issue or another you jump into anytime you start becoming conscious of the world you live in, it’s not you may have one aspect of the injustice that really tugs at your heart that really become passionate about but really, you see very quickly how interconnected it all is. And that and so working with refugees, people are displaced for all different reasons and all peoples are displaced and all religions and all races and all and persecuted for different reasons and struggling with different issues within this placement. And so whether it be generated by in violence or diabetes, or like everybody’s dealing with something, and it’s all in this kind of, we now have 82 84 million people displaced, oh, my God, so many and growing because of the different different realities that that we’re facing. So in looking at that, and seeing always how much the children are the most affected right and have the whether it’s they’re growing up in displacement, whether they’re their parents were fleeing, because they’re being forced to be conscripted into child soldiers, or because they’re going to be forced to be generally mutilated, or because they’re unable to go to school, or in all this, the ways that children are not, they are right in the center of that crossfire of so so much injustice and abuse, and the most vulnerable. So that was always on my mind, and trying to figure out how it’s possible. And it felt like I was going on one conflict to a time addressing the same thing over and over again. Alright, as if it was starting, we kept saying, why are we talking about this as if it’s the first time it’s happened? Or, we’re so shocked, we should stop being shocked, these things need to become when we see this or we know this is wrong. There needs to be, you know, quicker response than two years of discussion about how bad it is, you know, it’s, it’s, it was driving me nuts. And then I experienced some things myself and, and started to learn more about children’s rights in America. And I, getting a un person pulled out the rights of a child and started to look through it until somebody explained to me that doesn’t apply to your kids in the way that you think it does. And you can’t, you can’t teach it to them. Yeah, you’re you’re talking them about it as if it’s something they can touch and hold, and they can’t. And I started to then really question, what does that mean, and of course, law itself for anybody, we can all say, and a country can sign and ratify. And still, the citizens, of course, because look at all the countries signed up to the UN, but look at their behaviors or look at the US and say, Okay, this younger generation is more connected than ever. And they are up against a lot of people who are really trying to strip them of their rights, and really trying to do this campaign of MIS education. So the best thing we can do is work with those who helped pan the rights of a child, which is Geraldine and fight for children, which is amnesty, and say, how do we strengthen the fight these kids are in really, when it we can’t, you know, we want to try to do what we can as adults, but but we’re going to bet on them. And we’re going to give them the tools and we’re going to talk to them directly, because they’re dealing with so much. And what’s amazing to me is some people say, Well, if How can a child certain children read about this, because it has this and this in it, and you think you’re so upset about a kid reading about it, but you’re not upset that the kids went through it?

Tokata Iron Eyes 17:53
Or you’re there, we’re gonna have to start talking to them about it and writing about it and putting it in front of them. Because that, sadly, is their reality. And let’s face it, deal with it. So and then the bigger question was, if you give kids the tools, are they going to get hurt? And that was so caught his points, like, then it was a really interesting study in. Okay, well, let’s now I’m going to sit in, I’m going to sit in the position of a girl in this country. How does she How do I tell her how to find safety, to figure out how far she is from her rights? To know what to question then to see who her allies are, then to see how much danger she’s in. He’s going to start to actively fight for them. And that was a very, very brave, you know, sobering study, because you realize, while over here, we might say go to the streets talk about this. Don’t put up with that you think that is not the advice and the right way to talk to somebody in a certain countries. So we would have to map it out in a way where you would have to find your way through the book to guide you individually.

Traci Thomas 19:04
And Tokata. I didn’t ask you this, but can you speak a little bit about your journey to the work that you’ve been doing? I think that’s super interesting for folks to hear.

Tokata Iron Eyes 19:14
Sure. So I like I said it, you know, it wasn’t very much like ever work to me or much of an occupation. I’m Hunkpapa and Oglala Lakota. I’m from the Standing Rock Reservation in North and South Dakota. I like had sort of grown up there, you know, in and out all my life and we were living there when I was about 12 years old, and the Dakota Access Pipeline was proposed. And so me and a bunch of my peers who were all like, you know, seventh graders decide decided to make a film and then a petition coinciding with this, this like social media campaign to To stop the Dakota Access Pipeline, and just the video is talking about, you know what the river meant to us, and it got seen by a good amount of people. And they actually, a lot of the young people did a physical run from Standing Rock to Washington, DC to hand deliver this petition. And so there was like a lot of media that picked up. And as a result, you know, like the movement, and it’s like, I guess, highest, like 15,000 people on the ground physically opposing this pipeline for a stretch of about like, six, eight months, I’d say, Yeah, and it was intense, like the population of the reservation as a whole is only 7000. So it was like a mass growth of population. And I started doing more media work, and it was like videos, and then speaking at rallies, and then speaking at events, and, you know, eventually more things like this. And as I learned, and, you know, continue to grow as a person, it can vary, right that, like, Dakota Access is only one pipeline project. And my parents had always been doing the work. They were a part of a Land BuyBack initiative to buy a sacred site called Pitch law in the Black Hills. And I think now a lot of my work, and in the same way, is like reflected of that generational fight. You know, like, my grandfather always said that he wanted to live in the Black Hills as a sovereign nation. My father wants the same thing. And my parents, you know, are actively doing that work to try to make that a reality for us. And I carry that same thing. So again, it’s not, you know, work, but it’s definitely I mean, it’s, it’s a fight, it’s for survival, and our dignity.

Traci Thomas 21:49
Can I ask you how I’m having a hard time with the language because I want to respect what you’re saying about it not being work. And yeah, identifying as an activist. So forgive me if my language fails me here.

Tokata Iron Eyes 22:01
No it’s all failing us. As I remember, I got into many arguments about this. I was like, English is a shit language. And then somebody was trying to argue me about Shakespeare, and I was like, don’t talk to me about Shakespeare, it was genocide.

Angelina Jolie 22:18
I want to know how being involved in these spaces and these communal activist groups, with your friends with your family for generations, I want to know how has that maybe changed your dreams for yourself? And what you could imagine and maybe what possibilities hasn’t opened up or things that you didn’t think was a possibility when you were eight or six?

Tokata Iron Eyes 22:40
Yeah, I mean, none of this, I don’t think was probably a possibility. When I was eight years old, I was going to probably like a predominantly white institution in a small town in North Dakota. And I remember really being insecure about everything that it meant to be who I am. And, yeah, really feeling the pressure, just like Ollie always only being the only like, native cat in your class. You know, like, for example, my mother, there was this teacher who was obsessed with Lewis and Clark. And she wrote a play that she would have this fourth grade grade class perform annually. And firstly, get this, she didn’t cast me as a cochlea. Firstly, I’d have a grudge and the only Native student in the class if she didn’t have me. Anyway, moving on, I got cast as a grandmother. And all of these, like white little little kids are like, dressed up in their Indian costumes for this play. And my mother made me show up in my regalia. It was, ya know, it chant. I mean, everything about like, I guess, is the act of protest has changed me in every way. And it makes me so I mean, happy because somebody told me once that like, God was happy. And then, and then I was just like, okay, like, I guess we get to decide that, right? Because, like, the only way that something can stay in such a state of continuation is if it’s happy doing it. So we have to be able to find the joy in whatever we’re doing, which is why I’m adamant on not calling it work. Because if it’s work, like, I need a fucking break, you know, like, really, but there’s no break to be had in this. It’s, it’s ongoing, and it’s when I sleep and it’s when I take care of myself and it’s when I’m crying and it’s when I’m decrepid looking and not okay. But it’s actually just solely in the survival of it. And in the fact that my resistance is is my existence, you know, that’s like the coin for Is that all? Indigenous activists? No. But like, yeah, it’s an excellent truth. And so just having that being a constant in my life, it is my base. And it was my recognition of my children’s rights. You know, before I had any sort of vocabulary for it, it was the recognition, right that like, I had a voice inherently, the word for children. And Lakota is well, kind of Russia, which means sacred being, it’s always been there.

Traci Thomas 25:29
Yeah, I love this. Okay, I have this other question. And I don’t know that either of you’re gonna have the answer. But I think it’s good maybe to think about equal rights is this sort of confusing phrase that I think about a lot, because I think it’s tricky. Because people experience disadvantages differently and on different scales. And we want to quantify things, which we really can’t, some people are more hungry than other people, some people have less clean water, or whatever. All of these things are sort of being talked about as if they’re the same, like hunger, but they’re not. They’re not equal. They’re not equal disadvantages. It’s all sort of on this sliding scale. So I’m wondering how do we know when children’s rights is being fulfilled? When we talk about this stuff? How do we know that we’re doing it right or wrong? Or that we’ve succeeded? who’s holding people accountable? Who’s enforcing the rights of children to being upheld? As you mentioned earlier, Angelina, a lot of countries are signed on and they’re doing horrible, horrible things to children. So is that individuals are holding contract countries accountable? Is the UN holding people accountable? Do they have a body that can enforce it? And how do we know if it’s being enforced?

Angelina Jolie 26:58
It’s a really good point. I think accountability is the key. Right? You mentioned it a few times. I think that’s exactly right. And I think what we’ve seen, unfortunately, where we see a rise of human rights abuses, or human rights, sliding back is the lack of accountability. Globally, when we when we know some people are being harmed, or there’s been an injustice, and there’s just there’s not been any kind of accountability or rebalancing, or, you know, the no correction even. So this is where we not only, it’s not just the moral problem, it’s just it’s setting further back, you know, the bend towards justice is just sliding back. Because because people are not willing to really push the hold, to hold those who commit the abuses accountable. So that would make that would make the most significant difference, right? And whether there’s a body, it’s it’s all very different. And that’s why when we talk about this, sometimes it’s it’s within a community or a tribe, sometimes it’s within you know, this state, sometimes it’s an International Criminal Court, sometimes it’s in some time, and it all depends on what is happening and what what can be done, you know, the bars pretty damn low, and a lot of places where there’s just simply nothing in a lot of places. So, but I think so the important thing is not to think there’s this one perfect answer of when this happens, you do this, and then this is gonna make this perfect, right? But the important thing is to know what is deserved what’s deserved, just, that’s what I mean about like, knowing your basic human rights, knowing what is deserved knowing when somebody crosses something, it is a crime, or it is an abuse, and there’s not, we don’t have to keep questioning whether it is or whether there should be accountability, there shouldn’t be. Now you’re on the path to figuring out what that’s going to be and if you’re gonna get it on any level, but at least you are 100% Sure it’s wrong. And we stop having discussions of whether something is or isn’t crossing a line.

Traci Thomas 28:57
Okay, I have a quick question about the title, know your rights and claim them a guide for youth. I’m wondering how that came to be.

Angelina Jolie 29:07
Know Your Rights was it’s a, I have a touch of Know Your Rights, because I liked the clash song when I was young. So we waited something that, you know, did feel a bit of a punk move, you know, what is that it’s just fighting that authority, but really, it’s saying it that’s why it’s the toolbook It’s saying, you know, know them be educated in them. But claim them was what we you know, there because there’s a very big difference of just being aware of something and so it is actively saying to young people fight.

Tokata Iron Eyes 29:36
Yeah, I also think it says like, right, the most important people that we need to hold accountable is actually ourselves. Like, it’s like if we can imagine right that like these, I mean, if we’re putting it frankly, right, like the system is is never going to be something that most of us can rely on. For for a future You’re for our safety for anything. And so then to acknowledge that and say, Listen, we need to do something about about this, we cannot be complicit in this injustice, we cannot be complicit simply because that might be the easiest path taken. Right. But to say that it is already gone too far. And we are the ones who who actually hold the power in our numbers, and also in our influence, like young people are the most influential people that there is, actually, we were talking about this yesterday, just sort of like talking about what it means to be queer. I think that this generation is one of the I mean, the gayest on record, I’d say. And just to like, recognize what it means that people are claiming their identities more and more often, that people are willing to put themselves at that risk, just to recognize already their proximity from that that person who could which is most privilege, which is most recognized, and given access to, not all of us, you know, fit fit the mold, and rarely any of us do. So holding each other there and telling, not telling us but making sure that we can create spaces of safety for ourselves without those institutions without those boundaries without those definitions at all to define ourselves like to be that for one another.

Angelina Jolie 31:42
Yeah, I think the claiming part of it is just so empowering. To me when I say the title, a claim, that’s what pops out. That’s the word, you know, know your rights. Yes, of course. But you need to claim them, that there’s something that’s actionable, something that can be done that you can do, and it’s like this invitation or something, I don’t know, I love it. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break, and then we’ll be right back. Okay, we’re back. Now we’re going to talk about books and reading and writing. This is the fun part for me. So we’re gonna kind of do it a little different, because toccata you didn’t technically write this book, even though your story is written in the book. So we’re gonna do a little back and forth. Angelina, I’ll start with you. I ask every author who comes on the show this question, how do you right? Where are you? Are there snacks and beverages? And involved? Do you have a candle that you like a ritual? Are you in your home? Do you go to an office? Can you just set the scene for us about how you write?

How do I write? Okay? Well, I’ve written the most scattered possible way, because I’ve, you know, I have six kids, So I’ve, I write anywhere and everywhere. And I have random notebooks and things I keep, nobody can see this. But I have like, you know, it’s just things everywhere. And I write in. So yeah, a lot of stream of consciousness whenever it comes whenever I get five minutes?

Traci Thomas 33:14
And do you ever have a time where you’re able to say, you know, I’m writing now I’m going to close the door, or as it always just fits and starts?

Angelina Jolie 33:22
I do and I try? And I’ll try and and if I have to write someplace, I will I’ll get motivated by it. So I’ll read something. For something like this. I would really read the story. A lot of this was collecting, reading the stories of injustice, reading the stories about somebody who’s fighting for their rights reading this, so then it it just gets you thinking dropped like kind of drop in, right? You got to drop in. Sometimes you’re racing, you have five minutes, and you just put a bunch of thoughts in but if you can, you really try to. So I drop in by most of the things I write are about sometimes other people are other histories. So I tried to really just sit with that and their stories and their voices and try to kind of join them. And then and then, like I’m talking to them.

Traci Thomas 34:03
And then the last part which I asked but I didn’t ask forcefully enough, obviously, but it’s the most important thing that I asked everybody. Do you have any writing snacks or beverages?

Angelina Jolie 34:15
I drink tea constantly.

Traci Thomas 34:17
What kind?

Angelina Jolie 34:18
It changes through the day. I start with green I go into mint. But I have crazy tea drawers and my kids are buying me gifts about tea because I just am accustomed to good kids. And usually anything my mom is I don’t think this is this is a writer thing is has been ever since I was little I’m a Grazer and I’ll eat whatever I can eat without looking at it. So whether it’s an apple a sandwich or a popcorn, anything that doesn’t require full focus.

Traci Thomas 34:48
I love this. What about you Tokata? Any snacks or beverages that are always with you?

Tokata Iron Eyes 34:55
It used to be like cheese. It’s I know but Kellogg’s like actually really terrible I found oh no no and it like broke me a little because they were my fav but like you know, I guess healthier options. Fresh fruit is always go to I’m a big leg cracker and cheese fan.

Traci Thomas 35:18
Yes. Speaking my language.

Tokata Iron Eyes 35:21
There’s this character from the Spiderwick Chronicles who like is like only satiated with crackers and honey. And I like I have an affinity affinity to that. Yeah, snacks are super important. Like, I’m super glad that you brought that question.

Traci Thomas 35:44
Hey, you guys are welcome back on this show anytime. Because sometimes when I asked the snack question, I get a lot of eye rolls. I got a lot of people like, oh, I don’t eat, I just drink water. And then I have to get in fights with them, because you must be eating something. That’s good. That’s my favorite one. I got to ask Barack Obama one question, and that’s what I asked. And he also is TMT. Thank you very much. They didn’t let me ask any hard hitting questions. I said, I had to ask him something fun. So I went with signature snacks and beverages and he and he drinks green tea. Okay, you sort of mentioned this earlier, but I’d love for you to go in a little deeper. How do you preserve and or tap into your creativity? Maybe it’s some thing that’s like self care, or maybe it’s some sort of discipline or rituals.

Tokata Iron Eyes 36:36
Um, I mean, creativity. I’m like, I’ve started to make music. So I do that now. It’s very nice.

Traci Thomas 36:49
Are you writing? What are you doing?

Tokata Iron Eyes 36:51
I’m writing and I’m singing. And I’m like, kind of, I don’t play the piano. But like, but I sit at it. And I make noise at it until it sounds good. You know, and it seems to like be working efficiently enough for me to be happy with it. Yeah, so I’ll usually even just like go and sit at the piano for a couple of hours. And like acquaint myself with the instrument. Yeah, I hate the idea that there has to be rules to music. And I’ve always found that it’s best if I just figure it out myself. So that’s, that’s what I’ll be doing. I do a lot of like painting, like I have this mural in my room that’s like, painted on a picnic sheet. And I didn’t have any paint brushes and like, it’s like kids washable paint is like, final sheet. It’s very strange and wonderful.

Traci Thomas 37:50
All right. Yeah. All right. What about you, Angelina?

Angelina Jolie 37:55
Ah, my creativity. I mean, I guess I’m an I’m an artist. So I write screenplays sometimes or all? Acting is not my favorite thing. But I do that because I’ve been doing that a while. But yeah, I like to write writing is actually my creative writing.

Traci Thomas 38:14
That’s your fave?

Angelina Jolie 38:15
I think so.

Traci Thomas 38:16
For now, at this moment.

Angelina Jolie 38:18
For creative people. We just, it could be anything. It could be kids home, literally everything, like some random thing we’re doing in our house. I think I I’m definitely not a more traditional financial based person I like you know, I don’t have a head for numbers. I’m definitely one of more like, out of the box. Creative, you know, types of people.

Traci Thomas 38:40
Yeah. Okay. I’m very curious about this, since we know you from film and directing and acting. What’s it like writing a book? How does that differ for you from being on screen like in your process being collaborative? Because you did write this book with other people, which is similar to film, you’re doing the work with other people. But what’s it like? What’s the difference? What’s the process? Like? Were there any things that you just fell in love with, with writing the book versus from or were there things where you’re like, we could be doing this better.

Angelina Jolie 39:11
Takata might be doing this in some way. But I, I wrote a book years ago, which was my first it was just my journals were published my first trips into the field when I started to do refugee work. And so I kept all these journals, in part because I get too emotional talking to people and I get really shy about how to talk to him or what to ask. So I kept my head kind of in a book because it was a way of being respectful but also keeping myself contained and not crying. But those journals were published and that so that was the first time and then organizing that. And because I think it’s for any book is that crossing over to sharing something when you’re a writer, you’re sharing something, should you write your speeches, are you and so I think that’s why I feel it’s so, so much more precious to me because as an actor, sometimes you saying somebody else’s words or being in somebody else’s character, somebody else’s customer. So you’re not as responsible. It’s not as personal. But when you write, and you share, you feel like you’re really it’s, you’re true to yourself. So that process this process was very different because as I said, this was a lot of really putting pieces together, it was more, it was more my special envoy hat, it was more like, where you’re sitting around, you’re saying, Okay, how do you solve this for a child? Or are we covering is to your point? are we covering all the children? are we covering different issues? are we ignoring this issue? What do we do about trans? What do we do about so what are we? How are we addressing this, and then a lot of it was doing the work, doing the research and making sure that the right voices of the right children were being elevated with the right guides and the right because for this, it was a real responsibility to not to not put forward something that could get a child hurt, or put forward something that was, you know, Miss just misguided. And, and so, so this was fun in a different way. But it didn’t feel like I went back to school. I felt like I was schooled by Geraldine about like rights. And so that part, that part was, was very, very different. And that responsibility is very different. So when people started to read it, especially young people, I was very nervous.

Traci Thomas 41:19
Did you get a kind of response from young people? Have you heard from that?

Angelina Jolie 41:22
Well yeah, it’s meant it’s meant a lot. And again, not that they liked it, and just seems useful. Seems to use right. And so that felt really good. My kids seem to think my, my girls, my girls have it. They’re, they’re not, you know.

Traci Thomas 41:38
If they read it, but they give you notes.

Angelina Jolie 41:39
And you realize they’re, that you’re their mom, so they go it’s not it’s good. Like they’re shocked. They said that sound like oh my god.

Traci Thomas 41:50
Look at you, Mom, you finally did something. I love it. Okay. Tokata, I have a question for you. Are there any people that are younger than you that are activists that are doing the sort of community engagement that are inspiring you right now where you’re like, people need to know about this person who’s creating a new version of the future that I’m into, that’s imagining something different, that you feel like we should be supporting or shouting out maybe?

Tokata Iron Eyes 42:17
Somebody younger than me.

Traci Thomas 42:19
I mean, cuz technically, you’re an adult now.

Angelina Jolie 42:22
No, you’re 16.

Tokata Iron Eyes 42:24
I’m 18!

Traci Thomas 42:26
You’ve crossed the threshold. You’re fully old. You’re fully washed. Welcome to the club. Once you hit 18 to 99, you’re just an old.

Tokata Iron Eyes 42:41
Yeah, people have become very, like, I guess, vulnerable with me and not vulnerable, but like, open with me about the fact that like, it’s not getting any clearer. Like, nobody really has the answers actually. So like, short out just this for some more time. I think it’ll be great. Yeah, but no, I am. I’m no longer a child. I think my brother honestly is like, really cool. He like, has he like, made it tick tock and I didn’t know about it for forever. But apparently, he’s like, really gotten some like using stuff on there. Like, like, Yeah, and like, I was like, It’s really crazy. I think there was one where he posted this picture of this wanted poster for this native person named kills in water, who like, you know, committed some some crimes. And he like made a video of this and saying that like he aspires to be like this and, and in what like, went viral. And he’s, he’s super cool. He just modeled some shoes for Adidas. Called shoe Jonah, which means barefoot in Dakota. Yeah, he’s like, doing some really cool things. And I feel like we’re moving into the world you know, is like family and it feels super awesome and cool.

Traci Thomas 44:14
I love my brothers so much. And hearing you talk about your brothers. It’s making me emotional. Brother, we love to see it. Z. Okay. For people who love this book, what are some other books you might recommend to them? Maybe books that are in conversation with or kind of dealing with the same themes. It doesn’t have to be like the exact same kind of book, but just something that for folks who are vibing with this book that they might want to pick up next as they continue on their journey. Oh, goodness.

Angelina Jolie 44:46
Yeah. Well, much and it’s kind of like it’s your own journey to find what specifically because of course, everybody in this book I am quite fond of Vanessa cat de who’s who’s who’s in the book is written a book recently, but really there So many I mean, I think that’s the main, there isn’t that one voice? And I think that’s part of what we’re trying to say with this. There isn’t one voice, there isn’t one specific issue one specific, right, it’s about us. It’s about everybody joining together. And, you know, and really finding people would say to me sometimes when they when I was first doing my un work, and they’d say, Well, how do you get involved? Or how do you get in it, the first thing you do is you really, really try to feel what’s what area you’re passionate about. Right? And you just try to find those voices that speak to you and you try to find your own voice and you try to just listen and you try to just and there really isn’t. And definitely don’t get stuck on one book. One person one issue, just really try to keep keep open. Yeah, I think one person I would say is John Trudeau. He’s somebody he’s passed away since then. But but his words are really important. And I would like people to many people are rediscovering him now, but I think I think people looking him up and listening to him.

Traci Thomas 46:00
Ok I’ll look him up, because I don’t know him. So Joe, is cool. Tokata Do you have anybody else or any other books you want to add?

Tokata Iron Eyes 46:08
Um, I don’t know. I mean, like, like Angelina said, I think that it’s definitely different for everyone. I think that like the two books for me that like, come to mind that like, I would say that I would read in tandem with this, like, as an individual. I’m reading right now, Andrei Lourdes bio mythography called soft xometry. Super good. I’m having a really good time with it right now. Super special. Also, I read blackout speaks in high school. And my dad also read it when he was 16. And like, it feels very much in the same way, like claiming our cosmology as academic material, claiming, you know, this knowledge as academic material and, and also in the same way, like the Audrey Lord was like, sort of the blurring of lines that is occurring in all of it. And also then, like, the definition that’s coming from knowing your rights and claiming them no matter you know, what the situation.

Traci Thomas 47:19
Those are great. I love those. Okay, I have two more questions. This one is a short one, but it is the second most important question behind the snacks. One. What is a word? You can never spell correctly on the first try? I struggle with restaurant. Oh, my God, Angelina, there is a debate on the show about this word. Because there are people who cannot spell restaurant and then everyone else. And you are in line with some of our great minds. who simply cannot spell restaurant. It’s like the most polarizing can’t spell word on this podcast. toccata. Do you have one? Or are you a super speller?

Tokata Iron Eyes 47:58
No, I’m not a super speller. I think it’s just all of them, you know?

Traci Thomas 48:03
Welcome to my club.

Tokata Iron Eyes 48:09
I don’t know. I feel like there’s room for error in probably all of them for me. I have bad penmanship and some people think that it’s because I’m trying to be secretive.

Traci Thomas 48:22
But it’s because you can’t spell.

Tokata Iron Eyes 48:25
Makes makes me cover my mistakes.

Traci Thomas 48:29
Oh, my God, I love this. Yes. Tokata. You and I are in our own team called we spell everything wrong. And we’re getting fined about that. Yeah, I spell episode wrong a lot, which is a word that I spell constantly because I have a podcast.

Angelina Jolie 48:42
You write a word for a long time it just looks weird. Doesn’t it?

Traci Thomas 48:49
Yeah, for me, it’s that I’ve started typing it wrong. But for whatever reason, whenever I type it, I type it epi SDOE I know that that’s wrong. But my fingers have, like, gone on. Totally screwing it up for no reason. Okay, this is my last question for each of you. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Angelina Jolie 49:18
I mean, my head my mind is always just on that one kid somewhere in the middle of nowhere but doesn’t have whose family even and lives in a house where the whole house is not educated and rights are not supporting the rights right where they just really have nobody. No touchstone to the reality of how much they’re feeling or they’re being oppressed by is unfair. And then to just get their hands on it somehow. And, and start the journey of realizing what they’re worth.

Tokata Iron Eyes 49:55
In that case, then I hope that the teacher of that kid I’ve given many copies.

Angelina Jolie 50:05
Part of what I’d like to do with book actually is I keep thinking every keep saying, Well, it’s good to, like get people to, to read the book or talk about it on these things. But I keep thinking, I just want to give boxes to every youth activist everywhere. Yeah. To my side, do that underground distribution to each other. Yeah. Even they were saying was, some countries aren’t going to publish it, you know, because, of course, some countries won’t want to write my, my, I’m gonna bet on the kids translating it themselves, and somehow getting the copies of my book is the underground, betting on the kids.

Traci Thomas 50:40
I like, that’s gonna be the title of this episode betting on the kids. It’s true. We’re all old. I mean, Tokata, you’re young.

Angelina Jolie 50:51
I still think it would be under-25s.

Traci Thomas 50:56
And we’re old and just, we’re just betting on the kids.

Angelina Jolie 50:59
Right into that mom role of like, we’re listening, we’re supporting, but we’re not gonna pretend that we’re right, we’re knowing.

Traci Thomas 51:06
I think I should say this, I have so many listeners who are teachers, educators, and this is the book to get in the hands to the young people. If you are a teacher, who does care about the rights of young people, which I hope you do, and you can be that person i That’s an actionable thing that you can do, as just pass the book off to the right kids to the kids who think are interested or the ones who think aren’t interested, because, honestly, those are probably the ones that are really interested the ones who are acting like they don’t care, right?

Tokata Iron Eyes 51:38
The ones that are too cool for school just need to know why their feelings are justified. And then then they’ll level with you.

Traci Thomas 51:50
I mean, I can tell it’s you.

Tokata Iron Eyes 51:52
I only ever did school once my teachers like admitted to me that like, I was never going to like it and for good reason. Like and to admit to themselves like they they that they didn’t actually like school that much very much either.

Angelina Jolie 52:08
American history-

Tokata Iron Eyes 52:11
Oh my god.

Angelina Jolie 52:12
We could get into it, do a whole episode on just that.

Traci Thomas 52:21
I would love to do that. What you did was wrong. Ms. Padsman, we’re coming for you next. We’re gonna do a whole episode, we’re gonna do a book club episode on why this play is the worst ever written. Thank you. This was incredible. Thank you both so much for being here. Again, the book is called Know Your Rights and Claim Them: A Guide for Youth. You can get it wherever you get your books. If you cannot get it where you get your books. We’re gonna find a way to get it to you. Underground. We’re gonna bet on the youth. We’re gonna get you the book. So Tokata, Angelina, thank you both so much for being here.

Angelina Jolie 53:01
Thank you!

Traci Thomas 53:03
And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, that does it for us today. Thank you all for listening. And thank you so much to Tokata and Angelina for being my guests. I’d also like to thank Joseph Papa and Gabriella Arias for making this interview possible and coordinating the many moving parts. Remember the stacks book club pick for December is A little devil in America by Hanif Abdurraqib and we will discuss the book on Wednesday December 29 with Andrew Ti. If you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you’re listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram at thestackspod_ on Twitter and check out our website thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Lauren Tyree
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