Ep. 198 We'll Be Okay with Jason Reynolds

Written By Megan Caballero

This week we've got a repeat guest, the unmatched talent that is, Jason Reynolds. We're talking about his new book, Ain't Burned all the Bright, a collaboration with his friend, artist, Jason Griffin. We talk today about creativity in 2020, working with collaborators, and our understandings and experiences around grief. You can hear Jason's first appearances on The Stacks here and here.

The Stacks Book Club selection for December is Passing by Nella Larsen. We will discuss the book on January 26th with Cree Myles.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host, Traci Thomas. And if you’ve been listening to this show, you know I am a huge fan of this week’s guest, Jason Reynolds. I first got to sit down with Jason and fall 2019 to discuss his book Look Both Ways, which you can hear on Episode 89 of the show. We’ve since done numerous Instagram Lives and have remained in touch over the years and Jason isn’t finally back to the stacks to discuss his newest book Ain’t Burned All the Bright which he co created with his dear friend Jason Griffin. In addition to talking about the book we talk about grief, competition, feelings, snacks, and so much more. Our January book club pick is Passing by Nella Larsen. We will be discussing the book on this show on Wednesday, January 26, with Cree Myles. Now let’s get to my conversation with our great good friend, Jason Reynolds.

All right, everybody. I am, as I always say, so excited. But I’m extra excited today because I get to bring back a friend I think, and a friend of the podcast for sure. The wonderful, incredibly talented, lovely Jason Reynolds. Welcome back, Jason.

Jason Reynolds 2:14
Thank you. Hi, Traci. Good to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:17
I’m so excited. So we’re going to talk about your newest book, which is called Ain’t Burned All the Bright. And it is something that you wrote. And then you have illustrated with your dear friend, Jason Griffin. And it’s sort of a really special book. I’m very emotional, I already cried. So I’m going to try not to be too emotional on this episode. But I’m having a shit day. And so I might just bring a little emotion into today’s episode, but 30 seconds or so just can you tell everybody about the book.

Jason Reynolds 2:46
It’s about 2020. And how 2020 was a year that was constantly trying to suffocate us. And in the midst of us searching for oxygen masks and big places, we realized in 2020, that all of our oxygen masks are all around us in the minutiae of our lives. That’s it.

Traci Thomas 3:06
Okay, I loved this book, I immediately messaged you after I finished and was like, I’m very emotional over here. I just it really took me it’s the art is so cool. The words on the pages, everything visually about it is just so special. I’m wondering, I know you guys talk about this at the end of the book. But for people who haven’t read it yet, or haven’t gotten there, can you kind of give us a sense of like, where you got the idea for the book? And I guess the companion question to that is also was this book ever something else ended up becoming something different? Because that’s super interesting.

Jason Reynolds 3:40
Yeah this was something else. So like, Jason and I have been working together for 20 years, you know, we’ve been I mean, that’s how I got in the industry. He was my first book with Harper was with him. And after that we weren’t able to do anything else we’ve tried, we have tons of books that have been hidden tons of all this work that is sort of tucked away in our shelves. We just couldn’t figure out how to land another one and figure it out and make another thing, but we never stopped working just because we make art. Because we like to make art, you know. And so we had gotten a new deal for this book about a box. Okay, and so like this is we were like, Yeah, we’re gonna make a book about this box, right. And like, the end, the whole premise was like, Yo, we should tell a story about how everybody has a box. And in that box are all the things that we don’t want to talk about. And then we push that box into the corners of our mind. And then we stack all kinds of things in that box on top of that box set up to make sure that we never actually have to go and open the box. So we had this whole idea around, like unpacking that box to see what’s actually in the box. But it wasn’t working. We couldn’t figure out how to make it, how to make it go, you know, and then 2020 happen. And it became even harder to make that book work. Because you might you know, how many 2020 was a year where none of us could put it together? You know, even I mean? It was the first time in a very long time where my creative energy just wasn’t up I don’t have it or whatever it is there. So we were talking and we were he and I would have these weekly phone calls just as friends just to check in and like, How’s therapy going? How’s your kids? How’s, you know, like all the things that we talked about? And he was like, Man, I’m keeping this little notebook and I’m chatting, I’m just like, sketching in my little this tiny pocket size moleskin. And that’s kind of my, you know, it’s been like an oxygen mask to me. And this is the moment where I’m, like, triggered and I’m like, oh, like, let me call you back. Right? You know, I got this idea. But like, let me sleep on it. I call you tomorrow, I’ll tell you what I think about it. He’s like, bro, we got another book to write like, we’re writing this box. But we need to figure this out. And I’m like, I know. But like, I got this other thing. So I call back next day. And I’m like, bro, when you look at 2020, you look at the wildfires. You look at George Floyd, tear gas COVID. Everything attacks the respiratory system, every single thing in 2020 physically attacked the respiratory system. So that’s the first thing I was thinking about. The second thing I was thinking about was this idea of the oxygen masks, if we are all out of breath, if we are all sort of under a stranger’s fixation, where does one find oxygen. And then the third thing I was thinking about is that when you are having a panic attack, or when you are feeling like you’re losing your grip, everybody, every parent on Earth, has told their child to take deep breaths, and usually those deep breaths, either gonna fall between two numbers, right? Either they’re gonna say, Take 10, or they’re gonna say Take three. And that’s supposed to get you back to some places equilibrium. So this book is the literary manifestation of three deep breaths. I was it was written as three long sentences. This is not a poem, people people are calling it that. But it’s actually three run on sentences that I removed the punctuation from. Right. So it’s literally presented, when I gave it to him, it was three long sentences, and broken up into three breaths, laying out COVID, laying out the uprising, and also laying out with the oxygen masks really are what they’ve actually been.

Traci Thomas 7:03
I have a lot of follow up questions. My first one is what’s the difference between three long sentences without punctuation and a poem to you?

Jason Reynolds 7:14
So, I will tell you why I did it this way. So like, the reason why I didn’t want to present it as a poem in its traditional sense, right as like bursting stanza, right? Is because it was because when I gave it to Jason, it would put Jason in a tricky situation, because he wouldn’t want to break the language of because the language is already broken. Right. And so I didn’t want to write it as like, in that sort of way. I wanted him to have the freedom to break the language of however he saw fit for the best sort of execution of this of this piece. The other thing, though, is I think there’s something really special given the context of this particular work, something really special about a run on sentence. There’s something really special about the idea that a thing can keep going, you’re right, that they the thing that I think that has flow a thing that doesn’t actually end, right, even though we thought it was all going to end it doesn’t things don’t end, they don’t end. Right. Even when they do they don’t.

Traci Thomas 8:11
Right. You know, we’re gonna get to that. another follow up question. You said that you kind of lost your creative drive or force in 2020. Were you doing something to get it back? Did it come back? Do you feel like it’s back?

Jason Reynolds 8:26
Oh, yeah. I mean, I look, I really stumped when 2020. Yeah, right. So like, so like, what I had to do, there were a few things that had to happen. One, I had to write outside of, I had to write approach, you approach a different sort of genre, or form or category, right. And so stumble was a very different thing. And it required less language, more salt, less language. I just didn’t have the energy to produce. I mean, I also wrote a whole novel, in 2020 is a terrible novel, though. So I have to rewrite it, you know, I mean, so like, I wrote a whole novel.

Traci Thomas 9:00
So when you’re normally writing, or you, I guess what I’m getting at is like, do you normally rely on your creative impulses to create? Or do you have practices in place that sort of allow you to create even when you Jason aren’t feeling creative? Right? Like, do you have building blocks in place for you’re like, look, I still have to get this done and has to be good, because it’s gonna be published? Or are you like, you know what, I actually, I can’t write anything, like I can’t do a good thing. And so I’m not going to do a thing because I’m not in the moment.

Jason Reynolds 9:30
And so I have things in place, right? I have all sorts of things I write as, for me, this is a craft of practice, not necessarily a craft of inspiration. That being said, I’m always inspired. So So what 2020 did was for the first time, it sort of put me in a position to put my money where my mouth was, right, I would have to use those things that I’ve always had in place. Because I live a curious life and I love I’m like, I’m high on life all the time. I’m like, Well, life is so incredible. There’s so many things to learn. There’s so many people to meet that you know, I mean 2020 kind of put, you know, put the kibosh on that. And so then it was like, alright, well, you know, work is work. And technically you know what you’re doing. Like, this is a skill set. And so get to it, you know, things don’t have to be done how, by any means, right? If that means that this, this, you know, 85,000 not a word, it’s a 5000 word novel has to become a 25,000. Word graphic novel called stumped boy, right, which, which originally was a very much bigger novel, with a much older kid as a protagonist, than that’s what it has to be. Interesting.

Traci Thomas 10:33
Interesting, huh? Okay, how about editing this book? How does that work? You send over a run on sentence you say, Jason, do your thing, have fun, make art, do whatever feels right, given these words that I put down, he sends you back, whatever he sends you back? How do you all critique each other? And then also, how does an outside editor like your editor at Simon and Schuster, or whatever, how did they come into play with something like this, that sort of back and forth between you two in different mediums.

Jason Reynolds 11:07
Jason, and that don’t critique each other? Unless it’s something that we think is glaring? But I trust my partner, right? And I don’t make art I don’t I’m not a painter. Right? And he’s not a writer, right. So so whatever he gives me, it may it may require some compensation. But if he can argue for whatever image it is, and if I can argue for whatever language I’m using, then we let it we let it rot. There is no you know what I mean? Like it’s like any it’s like any other partnership where it’s like, bro, Miko micromanage you you grown and you’re and you’re a gifted artists, I’m not in that way. And then when it comes to the editors, it’s the same thing. It’s like, look, we can if it’s something that’s just not working from an outside voice, so outside my outside eyes, at this point in my career, I exercise enough humility to know that like, if my editor says something’s not working, I trust that it’s not working. But I trust my editor, because that’s her job. Right? So I live in a space where I just do the thing I do, and let everybody do what they do. And trust that they know what they’re doing, right? I don’t walk with nobody who don’t know how to do their job. Right? It makes it so much easier on all those.

Traci Thomas 12:13
You sound like me when I was planning my wedding because the florist kept asking me like, What do you want? And they kept being like, I don’t know, flowers. This is why I’m paying you plenty of money. I’d like it to feel whimsical. Goodbye. See you later.

Jason Reynolds 12:29
Oh, by the way, Oh, well. We did somewhere I had to do with that. Artists. So good. That was a good one. We’ve done graphic novel and and do it.

Traci Thomas 12:36
Right, right. I love the art and stuff. Boy so much. It was so fun. I’m actually sort of sort of thinking about but I’ll just ask you. Since last time, you talked, you’ve done stamps, which came out into the world, you’d written it, but it came out. And then you’ve had three visual art related texts. Yeah. So I’m wondering, what is it like for you, as a writer to put your words out and have other people make art in relationship to it in conjunction with you, in partnership with you? Because that’s not what I think of when I think of most authors writing books, right?

Jason Reynolds 13:20
I think Miss Hart came in the game. Right? Right. It’s how I started my career. So for me, the collaboration is I love it. And it’s not like I’m coming. There’s not like anybody is putting me with folks, these are all people I’m picking, right? I’m choosing who I believe are going to work well with me. And we’re gonna rock and roll if it you know, like, if somebody had to force me with somebody, it’s a different beast, but the fact that like, I picked my partners, and I think it’s a wonderful thing. And I think ultimately, you know, my whole thing JC is I want to be able to be read from from cradle to grave. And so I got that. So I want to create enough iterations of what we call a book. So that it doesn’t matter where you are in your in your journey. You can pick some up and be like, Oh, this is dope. Right? So if that means we’re gonna do some graphic stuff, we’re gonna do some, some some early reader stuff, some chapter book stuff, we’re gonna do like a picture books coming out later this year. I’ve got Oh, it’s adult thing. I told you. I wasn’t joking on Instagram. But the picture book about death is real.

Traci Thomas 14:17
Yeah, I really can’t wait. I thought it was a joke. And I was excited. But I was like, let me knock at my home.

Jason Reynolds 14:27
You know, middle grade, and ya and everything in between nonfiction, poetry, gift books, I want to figure I mean, look, I think that I think that my biggest skill set at the end of the day would be it would be dexterity, the ability to sort of be malleable and to put your hand and all the different spaces because I really don’t care about what form it is. Language is my jam.

Traci Thomas 14:49
Right? Right. Right. Well, what would you say if you had to categorize is the age for this book.

Jason Reynolds 14:57
Everybody, they categorize it as ya but don’t-

Traci Thomas 15:00
The other day I was reading it, I was like so taken by this book. And I was like, well, there’s a few reasons. One is because it’s a little dark. But also, I was like, This is not for children. I mean, it is for children, but it’s not like, for children. It’s not only for children. I just hate the categorizations.

Jason Reynolds 15:19
Yeah, the category make me crazy, because you gotta sell it somewhere. You got to categorize, right. I know. But this is for this is this is, you know, this has got a broad reach. We’ll say that.

Traci Thomas 15:28
Yeah. Okay. So this is the thing I really want to talk about with you about this book is about the whole grief of 2020. And, you know, for some people, 2020, it was acutely about grief, they lost someone, or they lost their job, or they lost a home, they lost. I don’t know, something very specific, that they’re grieving. And then for a lot of people, it was more sort of abstractly about grief, grief of a past life, grief of opportunities, all these things. I don’t know, I don’t even know my question is Jason, I just sort of want to know how we’re in the midst of this pandemic, like, we sort of thought maybe we weren’t, but now we’re definitely back in the thing. And it just feel like, we haven’t had a chance to grieve in a way that, you know, I don’t think we’re gonna have a chance to grieve like where this thing ends, we’re gonna have time to process this thing. And what we’ve all been through. So like, how do we feel like we can grieve?

Jason Reynolds 16:27
I don’t think me I don’t I don’t know.

Traci Thomas 16:32
I know, I know. But I need you to do better.

Jason Reynolds 16:34
And tell you, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you this, though. I lost my father at the end of 2020. And he had been dying for a while, right? And what I’ve learned that for me, and everyone’s grief story is different, especially when it comes to the loss of a parent. I think it’s such a specific thing. And everybody does it differently. But I was raised a certain way. And I have all kinds. You know, I was raised by like super progressive hippie mom and all that, you know, we talked about this, it was so like, for me, it wasn’t it wasn’t. It wasn’t a, you know, I didn’t feel like I was getting, like, it wasn’t like, I didn’t feel like somebody had guided me, it didn’t feel that way. It actually felt the opposite. Right? For me, it felt like someone had stretched me and I was now 10 feet tall. It felt like I felt gratitude. And don’t get me wrong. It’s an immense, it’s an extraordinary pain, and never ending like it’s like a hole with no bottom right? It’s intense, but it isn’t. But it’s disingenuous and a bit reductive to say that that is the only emotion when I feel so many other things, gratitude, a little bit of laughter, let me his death day is anniversary was at 28. So he just passed, and I got to go through some things and listen to His voice, I got some audio clips from God, you know, and just really kind of living in that space. Right. So and because of our relationship, and because of the way that we were able to reckon with each other as, as human beings, as men as father and son, as people who had broken a thing and had fixed the thing. All I can think about in this moment in the pandemic is figuring out somehow how to create some sense of relationship with the fact of the matter. So that when it is over my a bit, right, because because the only reason that I was able to grieve my father in a healthy way is that I wasn’t accepted who he was, and he accepted who I was. And then we were able to have honest conversation about our lives together and put it all back together. Right? So that so that in his in his demise, there’s no reason for me to bang my head against the wall, I can take a deep breath, and I can move forward. Because I left it all on the table. I think I think with with a pandemic, I’m not waiting for the pandemic to end for me to start processing. I want to process it while I’m living in it so that I can understand that for the time being, this is my normal for the time being. And when it is over, I will recalibrate to it to whatever the next the next normal is. But this is my normal right now. And instead of me running from that, I rather accept it so that when it’s over, I can grieve it appropriately. And move forward. Yeah, you know, that’s kind of looking at it. I don’t know if that’s gonna work, but that’s the way I want to think about my old man. That’s the way it worked for us. It was like, I’m gonna die. You’re gonna be okay. So that’s right. It was very frank conversation. I love you. I’m proud of you. Let’s address the things ask your questions. Be mad about about this and the third yatta yatta yatta I think with COVID It’s like look, I’m upset. I’m upset with it. I’m upset with I’m upset that it exists. It is hurting people. It’s killing people. It’s stopping my life. Right? But that’s the relationship that me and COVID have and I want to accept it but I’m not. I’m not gonna pretend like COVID and hit is here is happening. This is my this is my normal right now. But it’s not normal. It is normal right now. It is snowing right now. Right?

Traci Thomas 20:04
Yeah. So interesting. My dad passed away, it’ll be 10 years next month, which is sort of a whole different milestone, right. And I, and I feel like it’s a long time. It’s a long time. But I feel like when I think about, like grief and time, and like how it changes and how it moves, and how processing things, you know, in the moment, like, you’re saying, you’re, you’re normal, this is the new normal, this is the normal for right now, this is where we’re at. And then I think about where I was, when that was the normal versus where I am now. I just, I really wonder about what will happen when things change, then, you know, like, once we can process whatever it is we’ve been through.

Jason Reynolds 20:57
I don’t know, do you think that? You know, there’s a part of me that that is very sort of hopeful. Another part of me is, believes in sort of the human default, right, this, you know, I think about 911. Right, and 11 was such a tragic moment in American history. And we were so kind to each other for about a month. And then even back to just being who we are. Right. Right, which are, unfortunately, people who are doing what they have to do to survive for themselves. Right, and, and willing to step over you in order to do so. Right. It’s a painful thing to think about, but it is, it is it is a part of who we are right, it is a it is a part of our nature, unfortunately. And so I think that will become out of it. I think there are going to be those of us who feel just so happy to touch one another. I can’t wait. Just for a moment. But just for a moment.

Traci Thomas 22:00
Yeah, I don’t know. It’s just been such a crazy time. And like this book, when I was reading it, I was overwhelmed. By the I’m so emotional. I like really, you know, sorry, everyone. I’m sure no one wants to hear someone cry, but I’m not gonna cry, and I keep it together. But anyways, I was so overcome with sort of the, the ways in which it made me think about coping and like how we’ve been coping and what that looks like. And also, you know, that came up in stumped boy a lot, too. It’s a different kind of, it’s a different it’s a little more direct conversation around coping, and some boy I wonder, like, I just, I’m just so I’m so curious about how we’re all coping, you know, like, I think what I really am asking you is like, can you predict the future and tell me that we’re all going to be okay, and I know that you can’t.

Jason Reynolds 22:59
But I do think we will be I think we’ll be okay.

Traci Thomas 23:02
Yeah, I just, I just think like, it’s gonna be really interesting to look back in 1020 years from whenever all of this sort of settles, I don’t think COVID is ever going anywhere. I think that it’s pretty clear. But like, from when it settles, and it doesn’t feel, you know, like, horribly devastating. I just wonder, like, the books that are gonna be written about, like, Americans coped like this. And like, this is like, I just, I’m so curious to know how I just, I’m ready for it to be over, obviously, but I’m also even more so ready, rather than ready for it to be over. I really want to know what it’s going to say about us, you know, how we coped.

Jason Reynolds 23:38
But I also think, but also, I think, and I think this book is tribal, the book is also trying to get at is because it is coping, but it’s also trying to get at, like the way we cope. And our built in coping mechanisms, that that has become sort of these interesting. You know, almost like tuning forks, when they these normal things around us, right? Like for instance, right, my father and you know, to all people listening, this won’t be it Sorry, guys. It’s like everyone’s like, this is a sad as podcast, but you know, like, what it is.

Traci Thomas 24:08
You saw watch him a call it lets them don’t let that Sometimes we have to just deal with, you know, we don’t we’re not trying to be Cate Blanchett and Tyler Perry. Okay. That’s what it is.

Jason Reynolds 24:18
Yeah, I think I think that one of the greatest gifts when it came to coping during COVID was me having to care for my dying father. Oh, it was the strangest. Like, it was like it was an interesting sort of like, centering point, right? No matter what I’m hearing on the news, this has happened. All the things that are happening, I got some way to beat and where I have to be the person that I have to be with loves me. Right? It has something to it has something very important to say to me. It has something very important to give to me, so that I can deal with whatever this might be. And that was it was like leveling and sobering and an extreme Have a gift that every day of 2020 I had to care for a dying man. I had to be there and be present, right and be present to to hear him say, This is what I need from you. Here’s what I need you to tell your little brother. Here’s what I’m expecting of, you know, I’m not in any pain, no amount of free. Right? So like, I look at my father, a man who’s dying. And he’s like, No, I’m not afraid to die, sir. And then meet say to him, pot, but you got to hope for the best. And his response being? Don’t you get it? I’ve had the best for 50 years. Right? Then I can step out into the world with a different perspective. And I can say to myself, Man, COVID sucks. But if my old man is unafraid, of whatever of a thing that we do not know, is going to happen on the other side, right? Whatever that might be, or might not be that I too can be unafraid of whatever I don’t know is gonna happen at this site. And it was just really, really amazing. I don’t know, I feel so grateful for it now.

Traci Thomas 26:00
Well, it’s nice. I mean, it feels like as far as how these things go, as far as how these things go. Yeah, I mean, shit. Does just really feeling very sad today. No, no, I’m so glad I never we never get I mean, I love talking about books. But sometimes, like, I don’t feel like I always get to talk about the things that the books make me feel. But I feel like because I know you and because you’ve been on the show before we’ve talked so much about you. And like your process, I feel like we started have this opportunity to talk about the feelings part of it. And I feel like this book is big feelings. You know, like, this book is essentially just feelings, right? Like, the imagery. The the sparse language, like one of the things I took notes about was I wanted to ask you about how restraint played into your process with making this book, because you send over these three run on sentences. And then like, Do you have any impulse to like, Oh, this is really cool. Let’s have more like, or, or were you comfortable with the limited language and like, as someone who also writes really, really long things like, how do you restrain yourself? Do you have to do trust that it’s the right amount of words and things? Or do you have to like, practice that?

Jason Reynolds 27:18
Nah, I think, for me, I’m always, you know, the only language the only words I care about are the right ones.

Traci Thomas 27:28
And you always find them or sometimes, like, Isn’t it hard or No, it’s not hard for you, because this is your thing?

Jason Reynolds 27:34
No, it’s hard. It’s hard. It just takes time and attention and patience. Right? And it’s I mean, it’s not everything’s hard. Surgery is difficult.

Traci Thomas 27:44
Well, right. I don’t mean that to say that things aren’t hard for you, but like, I know, for me, like dancing ballet is really, really hard. Yes, but I’m a dancer. So like, ballet is hard. But ballet is not hard for me. Like it’s hard for you. So I guess my question is more like, is it easy for you to figure out when you’ve hit the right spot? Because this is what you do? And you understand it? Or do you still struggle with restraint? Even though you are capital J capital? RJ Reynolds?

Jason Reynolds 28:16
I think I think that much like ballet. Okay, let’s not use the word we can use ballet, I think they like much like ballet. There is the science of ballet. Right? And then there is the spirit of dance. Right? And if you can master both of those things, you are the goat. Right? You’re Mr. Copeland, you’re Misty Copeland, right? So I there is the technical ability of right days, there’s the science of writing. And then there’s the spirit of writing. Right? There are a lot of people who are technicians, and the work feels flat. There are a lot of people who are all good. And the work lacks technique. Right? And I have worked very, very hard to try to be as close to the the nexus point as possible. So that I say that to say yes, I understand how this works. Yes, I’ve been doing this for a very long time. But also, the greatest thing I’ve ever had. My greatest asset is my intuition. I know when I know when it’s done, because I know when it’s done. That’s it. And I can’t explain that, right? I just know when it’s that. I don’t know when the last word is the last word, then right? And it’s like, that’s what I and that’s all I want to say. It’s like, it’s like I write the sentence and I’m like, Here you go. Jay, this is all I really want to say it’s all I got me it’s all I want to say. And I know this is all I need to say.

Traci Thomas 29:32
Do you ever I guess we when you know that it’s not the end? Like let’s say you have a draft and you know, like you said your your novel, you’re like it’s not that it’s not done, right? How much does it like stress you out until you get to that like harmony chord at the end where you’re like, Oh, I’ve done it. It’s done.

Jason Reynolds 29:49
Like, it’s stressful. It’s stressful because I’m hard on myself, you know? Sure. And even like writing that novel, I wrote it turned it in my editor is like nah. Me like this one. have, you know and I and you there’s embarrassment for me at least it’s like, I don’t think I’m making mistakes that I made 20 years ago. And the reason why is because for with with being a writer, every single project is a new thing. Every single story is a new story every it’s going to be a new journey, a new experience. They’re going to be new potholes and pitfalls, and some of that some of that stuff is gonna make me feel like an amateur again. Right? So I’m constantly beginning I’m constantly learning how to do this. And so like, it’s all good. Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it embarrassing? Yes. Are my insecurities sort of like flared up? Yes. And also, I gotta get myself together and be like, bro, you know what you’re doing? Like, like, you know what it is? You know who you are. You know what you do? Are you this person? Nope. Are you that person? Nope. But you you, and you know how to you know how to do that. Right. So just do that.

Traci Thomas 30:50
Do you feel fueled by the sort of embarrassment? Oh, yeah. Heard of it?

Jason Reynolds 30:55
Yeah, I got it. I got a nasty chip on my shoulder. Yeah, yeah. Similar in a lot of ways not say much like you very competitive. Yeah. As to who will be proving it to you, though? Well, I just want to be the best I know. But who, amongst who? You would think of it? Like, who?

Traci Thomas 31:15
Who’s among the people that I saw? Okay. You haven’t heard this conversation yet. But everyone who’s listening to this conversation will have heard me talk to Cree miles last week. Yeah. And we talked about this thing that I do when I run, I don’t run that much anymore. But I do this thing when I run called hunting. And all it is, is if I’m out running in public, I find a person that I can see in front of me, and I chase them until I can pass them. And then I hunt the next person. So it’s about being the best. But it’s not about the competition. So much as it’s about me wanting to feel the feeling of like, I know I did the thing. And so I use outside people to fuel my competitive vibes. But it’s not, it’s not really about passing the lady in the yellow shorts. It’s just that the lady in the yellow shorts is the next person I can see. And I’m not good about long term goals. Like if you ask me my five year plan, I don’t have it, I can tell you what I want to accomplish in the next what the next thing I want to accomplish is, but I’m not one of those people that’s like, I can lay out a whole thing. I’m hunting constantly. It’s whatever the next like reachable thing is. So I am competing with people that I think are in my stratosphere now. But it’s not about them. It’s just a milestone to sort of hit to like pass. That’s how my competitive nature where I can dig it.

Jason Reynolds 32:30
I mean, for me, it’s more like, in my mind, there it is not true. I know it’s not true for everybody watching, listening, if any of my colleagues are listening to gonna be late Jay like, but in my mind, in my mind, Tracy, everybody’s still sleeping on me. Is wild is a wire and all my mentors and OTs be like, but that’s just-

Traci Thomas 32:47
I feel like that too. Yeah. I mean, I’m not Jason Reynolds. So like, but I think I think that that’s like our nature. Maybe

Jason Reynolds 32:58
I’m just like, like, they don’t get it yet. I’m like they have my homeboys be like No, no, everybody gets it. Nah, no, they don’t get it.

Traci Thomas 33:06
Right. But I feel like if you felt like everyone’s got it, and was like fully up on Jason, you would win, you lose your motivation.

Jason Reynolds 33:17
Maybe, man,

Traci Thomas 33:18
I feel like I would.

Jason Reynolds 33:19
It’s like most of you know how Jordan Jordan this was like making enemies in his mind. That’s hunting.

Traci Thomas 33:25
That’s what it is. For me. It’s like, I don’t actually care about you. But I need an emphasis. Like, I need that Roxane Gay Nemesis moment. I need it. And I’ll mess it up. I’ll decide someone like sends me a DM that I think is annoying. And I’m like, Oh, this my new nemesis.

Jason Reynolds 33:39
Yeah. You know, once I was talking to TSA, our good buddy, GSA, you know, one time I was doing this talk with him or something. And we were talking about this. And he said, he probably doesn’t remember this. But he said, Yo, I just want to make sure like, I ain’t gonna be I don’t gotta be, you know, the best, right? But I want to make sure that I’m in that conversation, when everybody say my name when it comes up. And they started name and they say, Jasmine, you know, they say, you know, this person and that person and he wants he wants his name to be in that conversation.

Yeah, you know me.

I want my name to be and for me, I feel like I’m fighting an uphill battle. There’s because, uh, you know, we’ve talked about this, it’s because I’m fighting the battle of children’s literature and then climbing that mountain. So it’s like, oh, well, does it does he count? Right, as well, but I think count.

Traci Thomas 34:27
I think what’s so dumb about that, for me is that that is the whole what we were talking about earlier. Like, you have to find a way to sell books, right? And so like, you’re being pigeon holed in this place, even though you’re pros are some of the best, but it’s like, oh, it’s a separate category. It’s not a separate category, but it is a separate category because of the way but like, you know, not to sound too crazy, but like capitalism makes it a separate category.

Jason Reynolds 34:53
Right, like marketing money. Right? Exactly. But like

Traci Thomas 34:57
that’s why you’re not in the conversation in the same way is because people are taught to think of you as something different. It’s not because like if you laid out the text and no one said this or that, like, you’re going to be hard pressed to find your writing. But yeah, no, I know.

Jason Reynolds 35:13
You read through, it just makes me angry.

Traci Thomas 35:16
I know. I know what you’re saying. Traci, I’m on a warpath with you. I just got a pitch for it. I’m hunting in the name of Jason Reynolds. Okay, I have to ask about hands. I know you didn’t draw. But I need to know about hands. Because there’s so many hands in this book. And I want to know if you guys talked about hands at all. And if there was any hand conversation.

Jason Reynolds 35:41
I have no idea. No idea. Nah, me. You know, Jason is like, I know he loves to draw them. Okay. He always has. He was, I mean, I got like, I have a piece of his work at my mom’s house. That’s just a hand. I have a piece downstairs in my house. That’s a hand. Right? Like he’s just loves to draw hands. But I don’t know if they have any significance.

Traci Thomas 36:02
And then also the title, because when I read the title in the book, I had to go back, and like read the whole section again, because I was like, feeling things. I’m feeling things. I don’t want to tell people because it was such like a lovely moment. But how did you sort of land on that as a title?

Jason Reynolds 36:20
You know what? So that is one of those. This is such an interesting story. It’s one of those stories where like, we finished a book. And it was untitled. And we worked with the editor, we kind of went through it. And it was one of those things where like, you could go through that book, and you could pick any line, there’s so many things that could have been plucked out, you know, but our editor actually was like, what do we think of? And she was sort of pulling out that section and was pulling out a section and burn and you know, it’s actually not a direct quote.

Traci Thomas 36:51
It’s not a direct quote. That’s why I went back and read it because I was like, oh, did I miss a thing?

Jason Reynolds 36:56
it’s not a direct quote. But uh, but it’s kind of perfect.

Traci Thomas 36:59
I love it. Because what is so great about it is when you hear the title, you’re sort of like, Huh, I wonder what this could mean. And then when you read it in the book, I mean, I just, again getting emotional. Okay, we’re gonna sort of transition I unfortunately do not get to ask you my favorite question about what word you can spell right? Because and here’s the true story. You are the first person I ever asked that question to in 2019. And originally I asked it on like the two part episodes because that’s what you did. But then I moved it over to the sort of like short stacks episode but now since you’ve already done it, we know that you’re aware that you can’t tell us a restaurant like you were the first you Angelina Jolie Quinn Tarantino see upper echelon of can’t spell. You’re in that conversation.

Jason Reynolds 37:47
We all struggle. It’s the stupidest spelling.

Traci Thomas 37:49
I think Gil too, right? Gil Busby said that. Yeah, it’s like a very elite club of people who can’t spell restaurant. And fortunately for me, I am that’s like the one word I can spell which I always laugh that I’m like, smarter than Jason smarter than him. But we have not actually officially in public on the record talked about snacks. I know a little bit about your snack life. It disgusts me.

Jason Reynolds 38:17
But let’s talk about alright, and this time I’ll tell the whole truth.

Traci Thomas 38:22
Okay.

Jason Reynolds 38:23
I love snacks. I have a terrible sweet tooth. And that’s the reason why I try not to keep snacks in my house. Because I do try to live a healthy life. Right? So that’s the thing. I try to stay healthy that I got a net as a matter of fact, downstairs in my house, there are 70- Seven Zero boxes of Girl Scout cookies.

Traci Thomas 38:49
Why do you have so many?

Jason Reynolds 38:51
Because my managers daughter is a new girl scout. Okay, trying to get competitive and and she’s trying to win. And I was like, Oh, you went in this thing? A No way. So I was like, just give me like 70 bucks. But I do this every year with whatever little girl come up to me and they’re like, Oh, Mr. Jason. I’m selling girl scout cookies. I’m like, give me all the Girl Scout cookies you have.

Traci Thomas 39:13
Do you do that for just the first girl that finds you? Or do you do it for every child that comes up to you?

Jason Reynolds 39:19
As many as possible? I just – 50 at a time. Samoas, I like them. I like thin mints.

Traci Thomas 39:39
The blue the blue box? Right? Yeah, the blue box. The blue box? Yeah, I like the red box, the Tagalongs or whatever. And yeah, I like the feeling of either one physical. Yeah, but you know what? This is gonna sound crazy to everyone who knows me. I’m actually not obsessed with Girl Scout cookies. I don’t really rock with them that hard. I like them. But like, I’m not buying I would probably tell a girl scout. I’ll just give you like $3 and I want like two boxes and just you know, double sell.

Jason Reynolds 40:11
Traci is like cracking them joints is something no one is able to. You got to eat a whole box at a time.

Traci Thomas 40:17
See I can. I can eat one like I- It’s not unlike let’s not pretend that I don’t have a serious problem. It’s just that’s not the one for me. Um, for me, like I, if it’s a goldfish, it’s one of those huge boxes and it’s a weak-

Jason Reynolds 40:32
So you’re a savory snack-

Traci Thomas 40:33
No, I like sweets, too. I have you never heard of my pescatarian it’s goldfish in Swedish fish together. So delicious snack. I love a gummy. I love a donut. I like a cookie. I just don’t love a Girl Scout cookie.

Jason Reynolds 40:46
I love all those things. But I can’t eat them.

Traci Thomas 40:50
I ate beets today.

Jason Reynolds 40:51
See? You get it. I have an addictive personality. And yeah, this is all bad for me. So I can’t, I just can’t I tried to keep them away from me.

Traci Thomas 41:02
Wow, we’re having restraint. But we’re tired of your broccoli. And you’re and Clint Smith clementines and all these healthy people.

Jason Reynolds 41:15
Mary got the apples. Mary loves apples.

Traci Thomas 41:19
But Mary also loves other snacks. And she talks freely about that. However, I did have to get in her face yesterday about about the apples as like the rating. The rating system is very skewed. six and up. I’m like look married, then just do it on a five star rating. Why are you doing at a time?

Jason Reynolds 41:35
First of all, how about the fact that Mary’s entire Instagram has become apples? The whole apples? Everything is just about apples now.

Traci Thomas 41:42
Yeah, I mean, I love it. I’m here for it. I love a passion with food. Even if it’s a broccoli or an apple.

Jason Reynolds 41:49
Listen, if anybody can make apples cool, it’s Mary.

Traci Thomas 41:52
That’s true. She is the coolest. Okay. We sort of did that question out of order. But can you just tell us about how you write? Like, how many hours a day is that every day? Is there music? What kind of music we talked about snacks, beverages, rituals, candles, anything like that?

Jason Reynolds 42:15
Yeah, I it’s changed, it’s changed. 2020 did that too. It used to be that I would wake up every day 637 I’d be an exercise and then I’d start riding around eight o’clock. 830. And I would pretty much work in my office until about one or two o’clock just kind of rocking and rolling. I don’t do music unless it’s instrumental. I’ll do do pad can write with podcasts that like the sort of, you can. Yeah, you know why? There’s a reason why though, there’s a reason why I can write with podcasts because I was used to, you know, the earlier parts of my life and career, you know, we are you buy into the whole idea of the coffee shop. Oh, I see. And coffee shop presents sound voices, not music, not I mean, some music but mostly voices. And there’s something and tracing. Honestly, I think that there’s something to hearing the voice that is not your own to help drown out all the voices that are yours. So then you can focus on the one you actually need. Right? Because when I sit at the page, I hear all it’s everything is happening in my head. And like having that one white noise that is a voice almost like distills and taps down all of this sort of erroneous voices in my head so I can hear them when I need to do the work. So I do a podcast sometimes.

Traci Thomas 43:31
But not this one. You sit and listen.

Jason Reynolds 43:34
No, I say listen. yeah.

Traci Thomas 43:38
would be deeply offended if you were like I listen every week. And I found out you were listening while you’re trying to drown out.

Jason Reynolds 43:45
But also, but also, but also there had been times where I’ve had this podcast. And it’s great because there are moments where like, I’ll be working and then I will hear you ask some questions on my hunt. And then I’ll stop out like take a break, it’ll force me to sort of take pauses and depending upon who you have on your show, it also kind of drives the work because you have a lot of really interesting people that I really respect. So it just kinda depends, you know, I mean, it depends. But as long as you’re listening, usually it’s like just American life. It’s like, you know, I read glasses voice is perfect for like this kind of thing. You know what I mean? And then I But now, I pretty much do notebook and pad, a pad and pen. Usually, I work in a different space in my home. Now I don’t work in my office that’s overcome with books and like it’s just club claustrophobic and then now and so now I’m upstairs in my home, which is a lot more space. It feels like a we work almost up here and it’s great. I also have an office outside of the house that I go to. I just got one of those. It’s so important.

Traci Thomas 44:45
It’s supposed to be today but stupid. COVID ruin my day.

Jason Reynolds 44:48
So good. I go to my office and I still work about three or four hours a day. But it’s just it’s just a different process. It’s a little weird. Do you work on the weekends? Not anymore, but I used to work seven days a week.

Traci Thomas 45:01
That’s one of my 2022 resolutions. No more working on the weekend. That takes some time to yourself. Yeah, I need it. Okay. Talking about Jason Reynolds, capital J, capital R. That’s what I say when I mean, like, you know, important, Jason, our friend Jason, I want to know, if there’s anything that you have not yet done, professionally, keep it professional, that you hope to do soon.

Jason Reynolds 45:30
Yeah, but it feels weird to like, talk about it.

Traci Thomas 45:34
Okay, well, this is good. A lot of your system.

Jason Reynolds 45:37
I mean, I think I think that there are things that I would love to better people that I would love to talk to. And, you know, I, you know, I think, one I want to finish this novel.

Traci Thomas 45:52
For people who don’t know, this is your adult novel,

Jason Reynolds 45:55
This adult novel, quote, unquote, is my adult novel, I have to finish it, I’m feeling really good about, I started over. So I literally have one sentence of this novel written, oh, my gosh, as of two days ago, I started, started over, I’d written you know, 300 pages. And now we’re back at page number one, which is good, which is good, but I have a good sort of like, I’m in a good space. I know, I know what I’m doing. I know where I’m going. I know what I wanted to sound like, I know how I wanted to feel more importantly, right. I’m gonna finish the novel. I want to so that’s primarily first and foremost, I want to I’m working on long way down the script for the movie X that turned into yesterday. So I hope that that gets cleared. And we’re done with that. And we can kind of Greenlight that I’ve got stumped boy TV show to work on Oh, it’s a write it, I gotta work on that. So like, these are the things that I’m that I want to do professionally. And then but there also are some things that I like, the most. And I know, all the writers are like, Oh, we don’t really care about this acknowledgement or that acknowledgement. You know what I mean? But that’s just I do, right. You know, what I would love to be considered for at one point in my life, and I know, it’s like a really weird thing. I would love for somebody to say, Yo, we’re gonna give Jason not even the award, just like we’re gonna give him a nod and acknowledgement from the Pulitzer foundation for his children’s work. But that’s not a thing. Yeah. Right. The New Yorker, The New Yorker was on the list. And I got that happened, right. And I’m so grateful for that profile. Like, that was cool. You know, I mean, that was dope. Because even that was a shot in the dark foot for The New Yorker to write about that worked much. My kids were is such an anomaly. So good. And so like, that was a huge deal, because they don’t do that. Right. And I’m thinking like, Well, who else don’t do that? Right. So that we could figure out how to make that happen. Right? Why should like, why can’t I get it? Not? You know, me. And Jason first wrote the very first book that we did together, which was never published, we published it ourselves. And we were teenagers called self, right? Big, big coffee table book.

Traci Thomas 48:09
That was like, $100. Yeah.

Jason Reynolds 48:13
And, you know, do you know that we sent that book to the person Foundation? Because we just didn’t know any better. Like, hey, we were like, Hey, we’re submitting this, right. And they, you know, they reached out to us. And we’re like, Hey, can you guys send this for more copies? And that alone was enough. We were like, oh, maybe they’re considering it. And they probably weren’t. They probably were like, This is a dope book to just keep is interesting.

Traci Thomas 48:36
They were like to do you guys read the instructions, you have to send five copies.

Jason Reynolds 48:44
There’s something that if I’m being honest, like that’s like a pie in the sky type of deal. I’d love to be acknowledged he would have put the foundation but then go out to the kid, man.

Traci Thomas 48:53
Well, I want you to win the award. Now.

Jason Reynolds 48:55
I mean, I just Yeah, I mean, I want that too. But I just sure it just feels like such a shot in the dark when it comes to the work that I’ve done. Just because I don’t know if that work is seen as capital L to those people. Sure. That’s all

Traci Thomas 49:07
Yeah, I get it.

Jason Reynolds 49:08
I wouldn’t man I’m good professionally. I mean, I’ve done my thing.

Traci Thomas 49:12
Now not done. I’m not done. The way that you said that sounded so like, done my thing. I’m gonna retire like irrelevant and in the kids business until my kids are old enough to feel like mommy knows someone cool because you are my first shot. Okay. So there too, so I feel like it was like, I was gonna say five or six. I’m hoping they’re gonna be reading at an advanced level. You know, stock boy feels like they can get there soon, like in like, five, five or six. So you got to stay doing things. But also you have that kids book that you said this kid’s book about death, and that can be for them sooner.

Jason Reynolds 49:56
It’s coming out soon. That’ll be they’ll be ready to rock for that. Yeah. I think you know, I’m not going anywhere. I don’t plan on going him and I love kids. But even if the adult thing happens, like I just like writing for kids, it’s all good. But if for some reason, it’s like, well, I don’t have anything else to say, I’m okay with my contribution. That’s all I’m saying. I’m at peace. I’m at peace with my contribution to this particular to this game at this for this generation.

Traci Thomas 50:21
Well, since you’ve done more than enough, I feel more than enough of them my job. Yeah. Okay. For people who love this book, in front of the right. What books might you recommend to them suddenly be in conversation with?

Jason Reynolds 50:36
Oh, ain’t any conversation with this joint?

Traci Thomas 50:39
Conversation? Use that creative process?

Jason Reynolds 50:42
Oh, all right. Let me see. Let me think what books are coming, we get some frank O’Hara, that’s some old school. Okay. Old school stuff that they will use. They were doing words and image back in the day. It’s interesting. Get some? What’s that June Jordan joint. It’s a June Jordan book where she does it. Because the hard part about this book is that I could say like, oh, you could read this. And it’ll be about a similar topic or similar thing. But I think what makes the book the book is the collaboration. Yeah. Right, like the lifting of the language, with the text and with the art and it’s not even. And it’s not even really illustrative. It’s not like the hardest is fading the language. It’s not like, it’s more like, it’s more like the art and the language together are sort of expanding, or expanding the landscape to have a more nuanced conversation about what it is that we live through. Right. Both things are telling that telling the same story, but they’re both telling a story, right?

Traci Thomas 51:35
Language are in conversation with each other. Exactly, exactly.

Jason Reynolds 51:39
So I don’t really know what I will put it with. Okay, I just don’t know. Other than Frank O’Hara other than was Langston Hughes his joint suite flat people a lot life sweet fly paper life other than June Jordans joint with it with the text and maybe honey I love Eloise Greenfield.

Traci Thomas 51:57
I bought that for my kids because of you. That is me. So I like to read it really like I’m performing like I like to like really funny I love

Jason Reynolds 52:11
Maybe honey I love is up there. Yeah, man. I don’t know. I hate to be that way. But I’m like, I just don’t know how many of you have this kind of thing.

Traci Thomas 52:22
That when you just say for example, that’s a very good one to read a weird book

Jason Reynolds 52:25
if you want to read something experimental. Yeah. So it’s for kids. I would say young tellers. Nothing. Yeah, it’s a book she so yon teller when the the prince of war back in the day. It’s a book about existentialism as a book about existentialism, it’s called nothing and is talking about experimental work for children like love was exciting to me. Oh, and maybe Platero eo by Juan Ramon. I mean, it’s old school is old school stuff I’m giving you like-

Traci Thomas 52:58
Oh I love it. We love we love a backless, we love an old school. What do you hope that people will keep in mind as they read this book?

Jason Reynolds 53:05
That we’re okay. We’re okay. You know, I like it sometimes to swimming. Are you a swimmer? Tracy, you strike me as a swimmer?

Traci Thomas 53:18
No, I mean, I can swim in high school. My boyfriend was a swimmer. So I learned how to swim. But I really struggled with that kickflip just really struggled with it. And I don’t like to be the person who’s doing the wall turn. And so now I can. I can, I don’t.

Jason Reynolds 53:39
I get it. Okay, so I know. You’re laughing. Because you’re like, it’s the kick. But here’s the thing about the reason I bring it up is because swimming in relationship to this book is because swimming is something that human beings are naturally meant to do. One because we’re born when we live in sort of fluid until you know, and so we’re born. We can be born into the water. As we all know, if you throw an infant into the water, it will it will float it will it will literally swim its way back to the to the water. And the reason why is because first and foremost, our bodies are outfitted with airbags, right? Which are the lungs, right? We literally have biological airbags in our bodies that are trying to save our lives, not just through breathing, but through flotation. Number two, number two, that what makes him difficult for most people is that the feeling of being out of breath, it causes people to immediately look for wherever they think the air is, right. So when you’re swimming, and you’ve got your chin tucked. The moment you feel like you’re out of breath, you lift your head to the light because you want to try to gasp for air. And the moment you do that because of biology the body sinks immediately which means that in order for you to maintain safety, All one has to do is keep their heads and keep your chin tucked, and your body will stay floating. And then you can get to the wall and get to the lip and lift yourself out of the water. Right? What this book is meant to say to us is that one, we will make it because we are built to survive it. And number two, in order to do so, we have to be careful about gab about like gasping and grasping for, we have to just kind of like keep your chin tuck, pay attention to the things around you keep you keep your head, right, keep your head, take your deep breaths. Don’t panic, right? And you will stay afloat. Right? Try not to try not to pay

Traci Thomas 55:46
No, I know. But don’t panic. It’s like it’s like when someone tells you to calm down. Like, I’m not panicky!

Jason Reynolds 55:53
But you know, but you know, but you know, you know, but the truth is, is that but we are panicking.

Traci Thomas 55:57
So of course, I’m always panicking.

Jason Reynolds 56:01
And it’s a natural thing to panic, but it rarely ever helps us. That’s right. And that’s the hard part. Right?

Traci Thomas 56:07
Like, like, Yeah, I mean, not to talk about stempler or whatever. But like, anxiety is just panic,

Jason Reynolds 56:17
anxiety and anxiety is the feeling of panic, it doesn’t make it doesn’t mean that you’re panicking. It’s the feeling of panic, right? So like when I have anxiety, so it’s like when I have anxiety, I can feel panic in my body, but I don’t make panic decisions. Oh, I see what you’re saying. I’m saying like, I can feel the panic in danger. Because then it becomes dangerous. Right? Right. Like, I feel panic, I feel afraid. Because I know that danger is here. I know that something is happening, or I know that this might be going on or someone might be harmed or I might be harmed. But the moment that I act out of panic now I put myself in the crosshairs in a very different way. Right. Sometimes it takes a moment to take a beat. survey the land, right is my baby, okay? Is my right like when you when my father was dying, and my father was dying, you know, we were going to the hospital, right? My stepmother would be in and she’d be all messed up and a doctor would come in and my older brother would be all messed up a little bit messed up. Everybody’s having a hard time. Doctor come in the room. You guys have any questions? This is a year and a half before his death. But he’s like going any other hospital? Do you guys have any questions? You know, my, you know, my question is, Hey, Doc, brain, heart, lungs, KIDNEY LIVER. Like, it’s like, are these things functioning? Yeah, these things are functioning Oh, then he’s alive? Are they are these things healthy? These things are healthy. Okay, well, then he’ll actually be alive for a little while. As long as these things are functioning.

Traci Thomas 57:40
How are those your questions when you are a person that has anxiety?

Jason Reynolds 57:44
Because I understand my position in the family? I see. Right? Despite the fact that my insides are going ballistic. When I look around the room at my family, I have to take my role in the family to do the thing to make sure that we’re good,

Traci Thomas 57:58
Because everyone else’s questions are the panic questions.

Jason Reynolds 58:01
You see what I’m saying.

Traci Thomas 58:04
I got it. I was like, What is he saying? Because I have this experience. I’ve nervous flier, hate turbulence. But one time I was on a flight, very choppy. And the woman next to me was so stressed out that I got so calm, because

Jason Reynolds 58:19
I’m a bad flyer to same thing. I’m a nervous fly. So you know what had to happen? One day, same, same thing, right? I’ve had panic attacks on airplanes, right? Where they’ve almost had to ground the plane. Once at one time. They did get on the plane, not because of me, but because of a term because of mechanical issues. They ground the plane, I go to the bar when I go to the bar with the pilot. And I say, Hey, brother, explain to me what turbulence is. And he broke it down. He said, Look, man, you want a boat? You hidden waves on the boat, the boats fine, right?

Traci Thomas 58:50
But someone explained, let’s say to bumpy road, old track, that’s not helpful.

Jason Reynolds 58:56
It wasn’t helpful, but you know what was helpful. He said, If you want it to go away, or you want to feel better about it, get a window seat and look out the window. He said, Every time you hear it, you feel a bump. Look out the window. And what you’ll see when you look out the window, is the plane still in the air? Like the plane, nothing’s happening. And once you can confirm nothing is happening, then I can calm down. Right? And so so over the years, I’ve had to work on like, how do I how can I get this under control so that I don’t make rash decisions? And I can I can manage my life. This book is about that. It’s about like, yo, it’s not saying that we shouldn’t be concerned. It’s saying that like, there are still things to be grateful for. There are still places for us to find refuge and those places are in the minutiae, and in the mundanity of our everyday lives and in our children and in our families and in this in our dirty closet. And this are the dinner that you burned in right like that is the beauty of our lives and this particular this particular present moment. And that’s it and that’s more than enough to get us through.

Traci Thomas 59:58
Right, right Oh, yeah. Okay, I have just one more question. Sorry. So I should have just ended it there. But I, you know, love a ritual love a routine can break from it. Anxiety. Gotta have benchmarks. If you could have one person that are alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Jason Reynolds 1:00:18
My father? Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:00:20
I felt like we were coming to that but didn’t want to put words in your mouth?

Jason Reynolds 1:00:23
No, I think he would appreciate it. I feel like it’s probably this is probably a lot of the things that he told me. You know, he, you know, there were things that he said like that thing about, like, I’ve had the best, the best or he said, that is Wow, he was like, he was like, you know, what’s the worst that can happen? Is that I’m going into surgery, if I don’t make it out. Good on me. And if I do make it out, good on me. Right? Right. Like, what’s the worst that what’s the what’s the actual worst thing that can happen to me, you know, these, these sort of really sobering sort of perspective shifts that he just understood. He told me, he, when he was dying, he went see the nurse came in the room, and he told the nurse, Hey, I just want to give you a heads up, you’re gonna have to teach me how to do this never died before. I only know how to live. I only know how to live. You don’t have to help me out with the dying part. And she said, Don’t worry, your body will do the work for you. And he said, That’s good to know. That’s good to know. Right? Like, he’s just like, and I think these are the things that he would have read this and been like, you get it. It’s the small things. You get it. So shout out to the old man.

Traci Thomas 1:01:29
So that’s your dad. Shadows, my dad. Great, I’m crying. So you did it. Congratulations. You got us here. gratulations. Everybody, the book is out. Now wherever you get your books, it’s called eight burned all the bright. It’s by Jason Reynolds and Jason Griffin. The Jason’s go get it. Enjoy it. Read it to yourself. Read it to your kids read it with your kids read it out loud. i Oh, I have one more question. It I’ve this is really a personal question. And I’m gonna it’s kind of a follow up depending on the answer. Is there a physical version of the book where your words are actually, like, cut out and pasted on his art? Does that exist?

Jason Reynolds 1:02:19
They it is it? Yes. individual pages? Yes. So he sort of way he did it. He cut out every single word. And then he taped them to every single page so that if I had to make edits, he could just you could just move them around, move the words around, but yes.

Traci Thomas 1:02:37
then the follow up question is may I have it? Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Jason Reynolds 1:02:44
No, but what I would say no, but but but but what I will tell you is in May, we are planning a big event around this book. And part of that event is all the pages the actual pages will be there and I think some are going to be raffled.

Traci Thomas 1:03:00
Oh, cool. Well, where’s that gonna be in DC? Or is it gonna be virtual?

Jason Reynolds 1:03:04
Both. New York and DC. Okay, well, yeah, do one in New York and one in DC. I know you’re in California.

Traci Thomas 1:03:08
Send some pages to LA. Jason, you’re the best. I always love talking to you. Thank you for coming back. Thank you for talking about things we don’t always get to talk about. You’re just a joy.

Jason Reynolds 1:03:20
It’s always a pleasure. I’m proud of you. We’re all still rooting for you. As usual. You’ve had some big wigs on it. Not as big as Kiese Laymon but big.

Traci Thomas 1:03:32
He’s fine. Honestly, it’s like it’s an honor but it’s not at all what makes me freak out. Thank you, everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all so much for listening and thank you to Jason for being our guest also a huge huge thank you to Lisa Moore Aleta for making this all happen and for being so flexible with scheduling issues due to COVID Remember the stocks book club pick for January is Passing by Nella Larsen. We will be discussing the book on the podcast on Wednesday, January 26. With Cree Myles. If you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you’re listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram at thestackspod_ on Twitter and check out our website thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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