Ep. 207 Breaking Through the Black/White Binary with Julissa Arce

Written By Megan Caballero

Today we're joined by Julissa Arce, author, and education and immigration activist. On this episode we have a conversation around Julissa's third book, You Sound Like a White Girl: A Case for Rejecting Assimilation. We talk about the myths around U.S. citizenship, colorism in Latine communities, plus the histories that the Black-white binary excludes.

The Stacks Book Club selection for March is A Mercy by Toni Morrison we will discuss the book on March 30th with Imani Perry.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today, our guest is Julissa Arce, author, speaker and social justice activist who focuses her work around Immigrant Justice and Education equality. We talked today about Julissa’s his newest book, You Sound Like a White Girl the case for rejecting assimilation and the ways that Julissa is thinking about colorism, history and the ideas of a united Latina dad. The Stacks book club pick for March is A Mercy by Toni Morrison and we will be discussing the book on the podcast on March 30. With our guest Imani Perry. Okay, now it’s time for my conversation with Julissa Arce.

All right, everybody, I’m very excited. I’m joined today by Julissa Arce, who’s the author of you sound like a white girl the case for rejecting assimilation. Julissa, welcome to the Stacks.

Julissa Arce 1:45
Thank you so much for having me. I’m a fan of the show. So it’s great to now be on this side.

Traci Thomas 1:50
Oh, my gosh, I’m honored. Anytime someone says that I still get like butterflies. I forget that people listen. So we always sort of start here in about 30 seconds or so can you tell us about the book?

Julissa Arce 2:03
Sure. So the book is a polemic sort of cultural criticism, on the ways in which America asks immigrants and people of color to assimilate. And the second part of the book is about how to reclaim our culture or history, our identity that doesn’t center on whiteness.

Traci Thomas 2:23
Yeah. I’m so curious. I feel like this is maybe an obvious question. But I feel like maybe there’s more there. I’m curious when and how you got the idea to actually write this book.

Julissa Arce 2:35
So it wasn’t like a light bulb went off in my head. And it was like, Oh, this is the book you have to write, you know, I think it was, it really was the course of the last like four or five years, been on the road talking about my other two books, my undergrad, American dream and someone like me, where some of the questions that people would ask me, I would think, well, this is not the right way to ask this question. So like, for example, people would ask me, Well, how come you stayed on document that for such a long time, right, because I was undocumented for 10 years? And in that question, I would just think I didn’t choose to stay undocumented. Right? No. And I think there’s this false idea that there is a right way to come to America. So that was like one of the questions I wanted to answer in the book, right. And there were all of these types of questions that people would ask me that I would think there’s an answer for this. And maybe I should write about these answers. Yeah. So partly, it was that partly it was, I have had a real craving to understand the history of my people in this country, because I never learned that in school. And so I started just reading a lot of history books, a lot of through more academic books. And I was just fascinated with the history that I was learning for the first time in my life. And I was really curious to synthesize that history in the context of the things that are happening in our country today. And so it’s sort of it’s sort of like all of these things were happening. I was reading this history. And I was like, There’s something here that I really have to explore. And then it sort of just all came together. When I sat down to write, I wanted to write about personal stories about the ways in which I dealt with assimilation. And the ways in which even though I did assimilate in many ways that still didn’t give me belonging. And then I thought, Okay, well, these personal stories are, are interesting, and they’re powerful in their own right. But how can I make these personal stories really tell bigger truths? And so that’s when I started incorporating a lot of the history, a lot of the more sort of political and social commentary. And what we got was you sound like a white girl.

Traci Thomas 4:49
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s one of the things that makes this book really special and different is how you incorporated so much history. For people who don’t know aren’t familiar with you and your work you mentioned, you know, your pee But can you just be a little more specific? So people know exactly what history we’re talking about, like, who’s my people? Yeah. Well, I know I read the book. People at home are like, well, who are the people?

Julissa Arce 5:09
yeah. So. So there’s a lot of specifically Mexican American history, and then more broadly, Latino history. But I do focus a lot on Mexican American History One, because you do, Mexicans were part of what is now the United States, before it came, the United States and the wave of immigrants into the United States were first Mexican Americans, and then other other Latin American people followed. And there’s also mentions of Puerto Rican history because Puerto Ricans to have a very long history in the United States, given the colonization of Puerto Rico by the United States. So, you know, that’s my people. But as I mentioned, sort of in the, in the introduction of the book, though, this is a book that’s interest, my experience and, and our history, I definitely think that people who are not part of our community will, will learn a lot from it will find themselves in it. And, you know, we’ll learn some things that they didn’t know before,

Traci Thomas 6:17
I would say that I fall squarely in that category. As you know, I’m not, you know, Latina in any way that I know of, but I saw myself a lot in your story. And I think like just the title of the book, you sound like a white girl, it could be the title of my memoir, as well. And I learned so much like, I think this is gonna sound really crazy, and maybe like a little dumb. And I apologize to everyone listening. But like, it had never dawned on me that there were black Mexicans, Oh, yeah. Like it just it had never, of course, like, did I think that they just magically weren’t brought to Mexico? Like no. And I know, like, you know, I know, there are black under and I know, there are black Brazilians, I know, there are black Colombians. Like, for whatever reason, when I read that, in your book, I had a moment of like, wow, I am an actual moron. And also, why is this history totally excluded from any conversation. So I definitely think people who do not have the same cultural background, as you will learn things will see themselves or will see, you know, see themselves either in relating to you or relating to maybe some of the questions that you were asked and things. So I think it’s like a very inclusive book. But I appreciated that your audience also felt very clear. Like, I didn’t feel like you were writing a book to like teach people like, very strong, in a sense of like, this is about us. And this is, you know, I’m encouraging my people to take back some of our culture and our history and all of that. And I really, really liked that point of view. But kind of speaking about this idea of like, having people who are included, who maybe aren’t Latina, or whatever, you talk about race and America being a binary between black and white. And I’m curious, because you sort of say like, is there a place for us or whatever, and like my, and maybe this is because I am black. And so my lens is like sort of skewed. But I’ve always thought about America in that way. But also, I’ve thought of binaries, as like, you know, on a spectrum. And so I’m wondering, like, how do you prefer to think about it that make feels more inclusive to you? Or is a spectrum? You know, not a, I don’t know, I’m just sort of curious about

Julissa Arce 8:33
Yeah, that’s a yes or no, yeah, there’s that you definitely mentioned a lot, I want to come back to some of the points that you made. But on your question, and this is, you know, this is one of the hardest parts of the book that I wrestled with. And I spent many, many months making sure that I wrote it in a way that was that was coherent, like the thoughts swirling in my mind were came on the page. So I say that because, you know, whatever I can say in this interview, that we have to get to this time that we have together, it’s not going to be nearly as eloquent as what I as what I wrote, I, you know, I encourage people to read the book so they can get this part the way that I wrote it. But to answer your question, this question came up for me, since I was like, in seventh grade, right, and I was learning about all this history. And it goes back to history, because I was learning this history of the United States that was always told from a white point of view. And that included some black stories. Of course, those black stories were never told from the perspective of black people, but at least I sort of saw them. Right, right. Right. And if even if they weren’t completely accurate, but then I was like, Where were we? You know, I was just really curious to find out like, Where were Mexicans during the Civil War, and where were Mexicans during the Civil Rights Movement and where were Mexicans when the United States fall? for its independence from from England, and we’re, you know, committing genocide against indigenous people like I was just like, where were we? And so that’s really where this question of, like, where do we fit in? Because it does feel as someone who is not white, and as someone who is not black, that sometimes conversations about race do live in this binary. Right? And that there is no room for sort of more perspectives, right, even though all of our experiences as people of color play into that binary.

Traci Thomas 10:38
Why do you think that is? Do you have a theory as like why we exclude other voices?

Julissa Arce 10:45
Well, so I really think that this binary is a framework of white supremacy, because what happens is, you know, if you if you can only be, there’s this really funny meme, that it’s like this little Latino kid walking down the road, and then there’s a fork on the road, one side of the road leads to becoming a white supremacist, and the other end, the other road leads to acting black, got it. And I saw this meme, and I was like, Oh, my God, this is like, this is in a very funny meme. Like, the way I’ve sometimes I felt about things, you know, in that, in that I think that this binary drives people to try to be as close in proximity to whiteness, because somehow we might feel that they will offer us protection, that that will give us humanity. Right. And I think that what that does, is that it upholds white supremacy, while at the same time, we then play into the oppression of black people. Right, right. And so that’s why I think it’s so important to sort of not look beyond, and I’m very clear about this in the book, like this is not about looking beyond the black white narrative in America, because that’s a very real narrative. Sure, that needs to continue to be, you know, studied and explored and discussed. So it’s not like it’s not about looking beyond, but it’s about looking through, right, and trying to make spaces. One of the things that I mentioned is that, you know, I, I don’t want to be described as what I’m not, right, I want to be described by what I am.

Traci Thomas 12:29
And so you agree with that. I feel like so often, people are like, Oh, not white, or not black.

Julissa Arce 12:35
And I’m like, huh, yeah, it’s tricky. And it’s funny, because even what you said about not funny, but interesting, even what you mentioned about like, it hadn’t dawned on you that they were like, you know, black Mexicans. And I mentioned in the book that, you know, of all the enslaved Africans that came with that were brought forcefully a very large percentage of that. Something like 90% were taken to the Caribbean and to Latin America. Yeah. So there, there are more black people that live in Latin America than do in the United States.

Traci Thomas 13:08
And I knew that about like Colombia, like, I think of Colombia as being almost a Black Country. And same with Brazil, but for some reason,

Julissa Arce 13:16
oh, in Mexico. Yeah. Well, that’s also Mexico’s fault. Because we have hidden that history. It was just in the last few years that that on the census in the Mexican census, right, that black Mexicans could assert their black identity on the Census. You know, I mentioned in the book that the second president of Mexico was black and indigenous. But if you see portraits of him, you would never guess you would never know that he was black, because the portraits that were painted off when we’re literally whitewashed. Right. And so it’s also our fault that that people don’t know that. And, and we need to rectify that.

Traci Thomas 14:05
Yeah, I think so this kind of I was going to get to this later. But I feel like we’re firmly in the place to talk a little bit about colorism in the Latina community and, and sort of about because I think one of the things that I have, I think I have known, and I think, you know, maybe it’s different in different communities, but like, as a black person, and I mix, I have a white mother and a black father. So I have thought about color a lot. You know, it’s like one of those things. That’s part of my experience. But I have friends who are, you know, from different places in Latin and Central America, who have struggled a lot with that conversation about race versus like nationality? And I know it’s really complicated because race is a social construct. And so it gets weird and it gets confusing, but like, oftentimes, I remind people like you can you can be white and be Cuban. You can be white and be Brazilian like, and, and I always use exam Like, look, no one’s calling Ted Cruz a person of color, you know, like, right? He’s He’s Cuban, or Marco Rubio or whatever. We all can see that and be like, That’s a white man whose family is from Cuba. And so I’m wondering sort of like, in the book, you talk about, like people who are who are white still claiming that person of color identity. And you use the example of Selena, who is, you know, fair skinned, but, you know, I would argue, is not white in the same ways that Marco Rubio is, but maybe that’s also because I know his politics in a way that makes me disgusted. Yeah. But so I’m wondering sort of like how you’re, you know, and I know you’re still reckoning with this, which is very much in the book, how you reckon with the idea of like white, Latin American people, you Caribbean people, etc, claiming or not claiming the term people of color?

Julissa Arce 15:56
Yeah, I don’t go into this much in the book about you know, people claiming Well, I mean, I do I do in some way so selenium, we’re talking here about to let that keep me Yeah, you know, BT BT BombBomb. Selenium or not? Yeah. Oh, not rare beauty. not rare. Oh, not Selena Gomez. Yeah, sorry. And I actually say, you know, there are people who are making the argument that Selena Campania is, quote, unquote, white passing. And that just like, I don’t agree with me fall off my chair. Because I’m like it no planet in the universe, is Selena Campania white, like she was never confused with a white woman. You know, ever. I do think that there are many Latinos who are white, you know, who have blonde hair and very light skin and colored eyes, who, when they immigrate to the United States, those that do feel like when they crossed the border, that gives them a different identity. And in some ways, I understand, you know, if you speak with an accent, you might be discriminated. You know, if somebody looks at your last name, and they’ve never met you, they might pass you up for an interview when they don’t know what you look like, right. And I don’t think that people who are white Latinos are any less Latino, right? They’re still Latinos, they still hold the culture, they still hold the values, that traditions, but my point is that they are not denied their humanity based on the color of their skin, right. And so I think that these two things are happening. One is, and I challenge and encourage white Latinos to fully grasp their whiteness, and in the ways in which they benefit from from white privilege, because I have found many Latinos to stop short of fully confronting that in themselves. And at the same time, I think that the conversation sometimes goes to places like tried to call Selena Campania white woman, right, which is nice. Like, to me, it’s incomprehensible. I’m with him, somebody would say that.

Traci Thomas 18:14
I’ve never heard I’d never even heard that until I saw it in your book, to be honest. Yeah.

Julissa Arce 18:19
I mean, it’s it, you know, so I think part is like, and I’ve met so many, like brown Latinos who maybe are a little bit lighter skin, but they’re not white. Right, you know, but I feel like people have guilted them into being like, you can’t call yourself a person of color, because you’re like, you know, slightly lighter skin like, I mean, you know, me, for example, right? I am an indigenous person, I have never been confused for someone white, right. But kind of going back to that black and white binary. It’s like, there’s people who want to force me to be like, you’re white? And I’m like, No, I am not white. Right. And I think that there is something beautiful about asserting, because I think for a long time, many people in the Latino community want it to be white, sure, and want it to be seen as white. And now there are many of us who are saying and asserting our own identity, as Latinos. So it’s very complicated. And there isn’t one right answer to any of this. But I think that the more conversations that we have about it, the more we might figure it out, you know, and identity is something very personal, like how people choose to identify themselves. I mean, I even talk about the words that we use to describe the Latino as my call so much controversy.

Traci Thomas 19:45
yeah, yeah. Well, I think it’s, I mean, again, like race in America, and everywhere is a construct and I think especially in America, like we think so much of like you said, the white black binary, but also, you know, in America To Be Black is to have, you know, one drop of blackness in you. Yeah. And so I. And so it’s interesting when I, when I’m reading about or talking to people who aren’t black, and they are from other groups, whether it’s Asian groups, Latino groups, whatever. And they have the ability to sort of decide some of this stuff in a way that like for black people, it’s different. It’s so different, like, yeah, because, you know, of course, there’s like colorism, and it’s like, oh, she’s really light, you know, she’s not really black or whatever. But like, historically, in this country to be a black person is to, you know, have one, I think it’s 161 32nd, I think, if you have one, so I think that’s like, great, great, great grandparent, or maybe for grades. I’m terrible at this. But it’s hard back. And like, you see pictures of people who are, you know, 1/32, black, and it’s like, that’s a white person today, as a straight up white person, but like, they were enslaved. And so it’s just an interesting thing, as we talk about, like, like you’re saying, identifying yourself and getting to choose your identity and how that works, and what choices you make, you know, for, for whatever reasons,

Julissa Arce 21:06
and I do talk about, you know, I do I do talk about that in the book that we in the Latino community who are not black Latinos, who are not, you know, indigenous, in the sense of like, growing up in an indigenous community. Right. Okay, that we also have to confront the privileges that we have, and I certainly am very aware that my experience is completely different, you know, than other people, so, and I try to be careful not to, like, I can only speak from my own experience, right, you know, like, I can’t, like try to write about anybody else’s experience, even like other Latinos. And I say that, you know, this is my experience. My perspective, yeah. Not that of an entire community.

Traci Thomas 21:56
Yeah, I think you do a really good job of sort of centering your experience in the ways that you talk about, you know, what you’ve gone through and what you’ve found to believe, as well as, like mixing in the history, like we talked about, I think it’s very clearly like you, your voice, your opinions, but also you’ve contextualized it, which I really appreciate as a reader, you sort of touched on this. And I really want to ask a little bit, I know that the language about what what you call yourselves, whether it’s Latina, a Latin X, Latino, Hispanic, will you talk a little bit about sort of, I didn’t even realize there was a huge conversation about it until I started listening to code switch. And they do like a whole thing on like Latina dad, but I’m just I’m wondering if you would kind of share with the audience what what the issue is, what the question is, and why it is so difficult to come up with a name?

Julissa Arce 22:46
Well, I think part of the reason it’s so difficult to come up with a name is because we do all have we, you know, we first of all, we come from like, very different distinct national identities, right? Like, quinoa is Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Colombian and Dominican and Salvador and Honduras. And when we live in those places, when I lived in Mexico, I was Mexican, I didn’t think of myself as like Latina or Hispanic, you know, and I think all of these words are our efforts to assert our own identity that is distinct and separate from other identities. And we just, you know, depending on the word, for example, there’s a big controversy around the word Latinx. Right, because people think that the x is sort of somehow disrespectful to like Spanish and that we’re trying to like, anglicized our Spanish language, the Spanish language, right? You know, but but then they are like non binary people who Latin x is the word that they like, and that they use there is Latina. And so I think each of the words, tells us a truth about who we are and how we came to be. Each word also falls short of fully encapsulate, encapsulating everybody’s identity and experience. And I think the most important thing is to choose whatever word fits you and to respect the words that other people choose to describe themselves. Yeah, I describe myself as Latina, because I am a cisgendered woman and so Latina fits me, right. But I have friends who like to be called that next. So I talked to them in the context of being Latin x, right? So there isn’t one single word I don’t think we’re gonna I don’t see us like coming together to be like, Okay, this is the word for everybody.

Traci Thomas 24:53
But some people find Hispanic to be offensive.

Julissa Arce 24:57
Well, the thing is the thing about Hispanic So, Hispanic was supposed to be a word that uh, for people who speak Spanish. So, in that sense, Spanish people, people from Spain, who are European who are many cases white, they are Hispanic, right? No, but I think that word Hispanic to me feels this sort of like respectable word that this this word that people use because it’s more respectable,

Traci Thomas 25:28
like African American because

Julissa Arce 25:31
because it centers the whiteness in our community right and center sort of this like mythical Spanish ancestor, somewhere down the line, right? And so I don’t like using it anymore for a long time I did use Hispanics, especially when I lived in Texas. When I lived in Texas, I was Hispanic. And until I started to realize like, oh, shit, this using this word to me felt like I was doing with migrant what my what many people in my family have done, which is to say, oh, you know, your grandpa was Spanish and he hadn’t blue eyes. And it’s like, no, he did it.

Traci Thomas 26:12
That white supremacy popping back up? Yeah, exactly.

Julissa Arce 26:15
And, you know, I think that there are some Spanish people, people from Spain that want to be Latino, or be Latina. And, you know, I have many Spanish friends who I love dearly. But I do not think that they are Latinos, because Latinos are people who have roots in Latin America, right. And if you’re from Spain, the only route you have to Latin America is that your ancestors colonized us and committed genocide and ruined us.

Traci Thomas 26:55
Congratulations. Yeah. Conquistador.

Julissa Arce 27:00
Exactly. So like, if you want to be Latino, and those are the roots you want to claim, you know, but you see it even like what happened with Javier Bardem? Yeah, yeah, you know, where he’s like, I don’t know, that would take us down in a different direction.

Traci Thomas 27:17
So maybe made me think about Alec Baldwin’s wife, Hillary, Hillary helot. And now she’s alladia Ilaria. She used to be my yoga teacher, and she was Hillary, I just want to go on the record people. I know her from a long time ago in New York, but her whole thing of like, Oh, I’m a Spaniard. But like part of it was that there was some sort of like, fetish that it’s it’s this nation of like, being a person of color almost.

Julissa Arce 27:44
Yeah. And I think it’s like, even if you were trying to be Spanish, like you still would not be a person.

Traci Thomas 27:49
You still write your Spanish or Spanish, like you’re European them. But what’s so interesting is like I was I don’t know if you’re familiar with Imani Perry, but she wrote this books out to America. And she talks about all these places. And she talks about Florida. And one of the things that she says, which again, had never dawned on me, she’s like, we have a racialized the Spanish language, which means that people from Spain, white, European people who are from Spain, somehow get to be racialized as well and have like the exoticism of being a PERT like being something that they’re not, she’s like, they’re just white people. They’re just like the French. They’re just from Spain, like, and it’s just interesting thing that we, in America have turned some of the most famous colonizers into, like this ethnic group. It’s like, yeah, they’re white. They did the same shit. England did.

Julissa Arce 28:39
Yeah. In New York, when I lived in New York, it was new to me coming from Texas, that people will you would use Spanish to describe Latinos. You know, we’re like, oh, that person Spanish. And it’s like, no, they speak Spanish. Right? But they’re not Spanish, right? You know, Spanish people are people from Spain, Spain. Those are Spanish people. But it was interesting to see how, how often that word is used in in New York. Yeah, I in Texas, I didn’t really see it used. In Texas. Our version of that was Hispanic.

Traci Thomas 29:17
Right. Okay, I want to talk about one kind of more big topic from the book, then we’ll take a break. So part of your story is that you immigrated to America. You talked about how your visa went up, you were here undocumented for about 10 years. And I think like, I’m always fascinated by the ways in which people who are born in America do not understand immigration, and what it means to be undocumented and why someone would be like you talked about earlier. And I’d love you know, you need to people need to read the book because you go into such detail. We will not be able to even like scrape the surface, but I’m going to talk about what you call the lie of citizenship when you You’re Brown in America? Will you sort of explain that to people who maybe are listening who are American born or who immigrated through white ancestors or whatever? Because I think it’s really fucking different.

Julissa Arce 30:14
Yeah. Well, so one big headline here is that immigration, naturalization citizenship laws have been driven by race, more than any other factor always. From the very beginning. In 1790, when Congress came up with the first laws of the United States, it said that only white free white men could naturalize could become citizens, you know, so from day one, it was raised that was driving who was worthy of American citizenship, right, that was followed by the Chinese Exclusion Act that was followed by, you know, later, not just including Chinese people, but like all Asians in general, followed by deportations of Mexican Americans, many of whom were US citizens, during times of economic downturn. So it’s always been driven by race, and it continues to this day, to be driven by race. So having said all that, you know, I didn’t stay undocumented, because I wanted to write, because being undocumented is really, really hard. Everything you do is dictated by your immigration status, everything you can and cannot do the things you do anyway. And then are accused of breaking the law. There is no path for citizenship for people. I mean, I became a US citizen, because my husband’s a US citizen. And so I was able to naturalize through him. And also, because I came here with a visa, had I crossed the border, even if I was married to a US citizen, I might not be able to fix my immigration status. So this line that people often refer to, you know, like, get in the back of the line, do it the right way. Right. The line is a myth, it doesn’t exist. We need new immigration laws to create that line. So people can get in a line and go through the process of naturalization. So, so yeah, I mean, there is no, there is no path to citizenship for many people. And depending on where you come from, you’re treated very differently. I mean, I think what’s happening in Ukraine, yeah, with the invasion of Vladimir Putin and the creation of, of Ukrainian refugees. You can just see it how, how differently Ukrainian refugees are being treated and how they’re being welcomed, and how they’re being spoken about in the media. Right. And it’s a perfect example of, depending on what you look like, you will either be treated as a refugee, or as an invader, right. And the way that we’re treating, right, and the way that we’re treating Ukrainian refugees, should be an example of how we treat all right.

Traci Thomas 33:08
Yeah, I mean, I think someone some meme was like showing a picture of Ukrainian refugees. And then what we saw with the Haitian refugees and the people on horses, and obviously, you know, for years and years and years and years predating Donald Trump, you know, I just want to say that because as much as I hate him, he’s not the only one. Right? The ways that people from Latin America have been treated at the border for years and years. I think we might touch more on the book. But I do want to make sure we take some time to talk about your process, which I always love and find to be a really fun thing. So you’re so busy. You are one of those people that has like a million hyphens in your name, like it’s like Julius RSA who activist, right, Our other speaker, boom, boom, boom, how did you find time to write this book?

Julissa Arce 34:03
Well, so I do do a lot of things. But to me, all of these things are sort of related. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re just branches of the same tree. And it obviously helps a lot to get an advance to give you the space and time to write a book. Right now. I don’t know how else you could do it, how else somebody could do it, because I can’t imagine sort of having a full time job and then coming home at six or 7pm at night to sit down and write write that’s and some people do that. And it’s like, it’s so it’s so amazing that they can do that. And it also it shouldn’t be that way. So I took months off from pretty much like everything else I was doing to do the research to sit down and write. Also, I started I started writing like actually sat down on my computer to write March 2020 Oh, wow. So writing lockdown, right? In some ways it was like, Well, you can’t do anything else, you know, you can’t be you are not going to be on the road doing speaking engagements right now because everything’s canceled like, right. So it sort of gave me the ability to really, really focus. But yeah, I think it’s just, you know, and then the way that the book process works, I worked on a proposal, so I had to take time off for the app. But then there were months when it was, you know, my agent was just sort of like, pitching write book, right. And during that time, I was doing something else. And when I finally got my contract, and I started writing, like writing a first draft, and then I would send it off to my editor. And then during that time that I was waiting to get feedback and things, I would work on other projects, right. And then I get it back, I have to work on edits. So I take apart from the other projects. So it’s, I almost find it like it’s like cooking a meal. Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, when you put something in the oven, and then you can start working on things like on your salad or chopping things or whatever. Yeah, for whatever thing you’re doing. And you know, once everything’s done, maybe I’ll start working on dessert. No, so it’s sort of like, yeah, it’s sort of just like, cooking a meal and just finding the right time to when things are in the oven. Yeah, time to do other things.

Traci Thomas 36:23
I love that analogy. Okay, how do you like to write? How many hours a day how often music or no? Are you having snacks and beverages? Where are you? Do you have rituals? Kind of paint the picture?

Julissa Arce 36:37
I have about 10 different drinks a day.

Traci Thomas 36:42
Oh my god. Talk about coffee.

Julissa Arce 36:45
Tea Lacroix.

Traci Thomas 36:48
What’s your flavor of water?

Julissa Arce 36:49
Oh my gosh, I love the watermelon Lacroix. Okay. And then there’s also one that’s called Waterloo. It’s like a Texas brand, I think but they sell it at Costco. And that has really good, like orange flavor and like BlackBerry flavor or whatever, like Yeah, so I just love having like a plethora of drinks to choose from. I in the last year have really more written like in my home office. Because now I actually have a home office. Thank you. So I get tired right here. My first two books, I wrote a lot of it at coffee shops. And I really love coffee shop writing. I wrote a lot of it on the plane. Okay, like I love writing on a plane because I just put my headphones on, listen to some music and like really focus on just writing because there’s like, what else are you going to do to get distracted, I’m not going to get up and decide that I need to do the dishes right? The second that I need to clean my entire house before I write the next sentence, which happens when I’m home. I really enjoy writing with music in the background. Even though it just kind of becomes like sometimes my Spotify or my Apple music or whatever will just like cut off and I don’t even notice right now I’m focused.

Traci Thomas 38:08
What kind of music? All kinds of music

Julissa Arce 38:11
I mean, my Yeah, I mean, I listen to music and Spanish I listened to I actually listened to a lot of scores. Like movie scores. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s because it’s just, it’s awesome. Yeah. Highly recommended, like prolific writer. It’s like the battle scene and like the Game of Thrones score, at best, so good. Also the succession score. Oh, yeah. So Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then in terms of like, number of hours and things I don’t you know, there there are times when I write for eight hours. And then there are times when I write for half an hour. And that’s all I got for the day.

Traci Thomas 38:57
Are you a write every day person?

Julissa Arce 38:59
Or when I’m writing a book? Yes. Okay. Right now?

Traci Thomas 39:04
No. Waiting right about to come out. Get into it.

Julissa Arce 39:07
Right now I’m writing emails to everybody being like, support my book. Buy my book. Yeah. send out a tweet about my book.

Traci Thomas 39:15
Yes. Yes. So in your book, you talk about your past life working in something financial, you know, I don’t understand that stuff. How did you know you wanted to be a writer or to make the switch to leaving that and doing something more on the creative side.

Julissa Arce 39:33
When I was a little girl, I used to write stories and I used to write poetry and I used to perform. Like I would write little plays, and then make all my cousin’s perform my plays if I’d like family functions. So when I was since I was little, I’ve always really liked writing. I’ve always really liked telling stories. And I then as I was growing up, writing In my journal was, like I used to write in my journal every day. And that’s where I could be the most honest because I could I could take away all the layers of pretending. Because it was just for me, nobody was ever going to read that. And I could be honest about everything. And most importantly, I could be honest about myself in this journals, so writing was always an outlet for me. And reading was always an outlet for me. One of the biggest things that drove me to Wall Street was the money. Sure I like where can I make the most money because I wanted to, like be able to take care of my family and my parents were back in Mexico, there was all this, like personal reasons why I just needed to have a lot of money. And I was good at finance. Like, I was always good at math. And so I was good at it. I enjoy the time I was there. But there was always something that would, you know, just something that would feel I’m supposed to be doing something else. I’m supposed to be doing something else like this, isn’t it for me. And then I had, I had a really incredible opportunity to write my first book, because of this. Bloomberg Businessweek article that was written about my life that got a lot of traction. And then the woman, Lisa Leslie, who’s my agent, now, she had reached out and said, like, do you want to write a book? And I’m like, Yes, I do. And I went back, and I looked at some journals. And in my journal, I had said, One day, I’m going to write a book. And all this shit that I went through is going to be for something and I had outlined the chapters that I was going to write. Wow. And in those chapters, I was like, Man, these churches were really good descriptions. I’m gonna use that. Yeah. And then once I started writing that book, I it just became clear to me that this is what I’m supposed to do. You know, I’m supposed to write I’m supposed to tell stories. Right? Right. This second? I can’t imagine how I’m ever gonna write another. You well, you I am exhausted. And I and this book took a lot out of me. But I know one day soon,

Traci Thomas 42:05
I’ll be ready again. Be ready again. Yeah, you gotta take the time to decompress a little bit. And then you’ll know, this is my one of my favorite questions. And you sort of talked about this in the book, which I appreciate it. But what’s a word? You can never spell correctly? On the first try?

Julissa Arce 42:23
I got a temporary.

Traci Thomas 42:25
that’s a really hard. Yeah. Yeah. Is it an E or an I write? I think, I think it’s an I’m a terrible I temporary.

Julissa Arce 42:34
cannot spell? Oh, d’oeuvres.

Traci Thomas 42:37
Oh, yeah,

Julissa Arce 42:38
I don’t spell Oh, crap.

Traci Thomas 42:42
I don’t speak French. I spell in French. I can barely spell in English. And yeah.

Julissa Arce 42:48
Good. Yeah, those two words.

Traci Thomas 42:50
Those are good ones, you actually make such a great point in the book about Spanish because like you talked about in the second half of the book about a lot about reclaiming. And that sort of like the thesis of the second half, and you talk about, you know, people who say to you, either, why don’t you speak Spanish or not to you, but to people who are, you know, descendants of people who speak Spanish immigrants. And then you also talk about how people are like, Oh, I’m learning Spanish, because it’s such a good thing to have on my resume and whatever. And then you have this point where you’re like, No one asks children or descendants of Polish immigrants, why they don’t speak Polish, or like what and I just, I thought that was just such an interesting point, which goes back to I think, the racialization of Spanish. And the white supremacy, of course, I mean, doesn’t it always go back to white supremacy feel like,

Julissa Arce 43:42
Yes, it’s white supremacy in the patriarchy. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 43:46
It’s literally like every answer on every question. It’s like, why do we do this in America? Well, is it have to do with the patriarchy or white supremacy? Or bonus points for both? Yeah. But I did love that. I did love thinking about Yeah, I have never heard anyone say to, like child of Italian immigrants. Why don’t you speak Italian or whatever? Yeah. What parts of the book came easily for you and what parts were more difficult to write?

Julissa Arce 44:17
Hmm, I feel like this whole entire book was difficult to write. The whole book was difficult to write because it was a departure from what I have written in the past, which is memoir. Right, right. And the voice that I used to write my memoirs was very different than the voice that I used to write. You sound like a white girl. But there were sections that flowed more easily, even if they were difficult to write. I think that the sections that I really struggled with, I mentioned earlier were the sections where I was talking about reclaiming our identity. Like what is my race? Those parts were were difficult to write, because I was still trying to make sense of them. Even as I was writing right now, like some of the other parts of the book, I sort of already had conclusions in my mind that I wanted to. I wanted to take readers on this journey to this conclusion that I already knew what it was, you know, I already knew where we’re going. Were with those sections. Even as I was writing new things were coming up for me know, even as I was doing research, new things would come up for me. And so I had to write and rewrite and then write again. And then finally, my editor was like, Okay, we have to like, turn this. You’re done.

Traci Thomas 45:43
You need to take take a break. Yeah, it’s so funny.

Julissa Arce 45:47
So yeah, those those, those were hard because I didn’t have a conclusion in my mind already. Right. And I was trying to find it as I was writing.

Traci Thomas 45:57
Yeah. For people who love you sound like a white girl. What are some books you might recommend to them that are maybe in conversation with what you do?

Julissa Arce 46:06
Yeah. So here’s some of the books that I read, to for research on the book, there was manifest destinies by Lauder Gomez, there was finding Latinx by Paola Ramos, then there was, you know, books like how the Irish became white. There was a book called working towards whiteness, there was why I’m no longer talking to white people about race. There is a novel that just came out, called a ballad of love and glory. And it’s a historical fiction novel set during the Mexican American War. And I think it really explores this part of American history that we gloss over, though it is an incredibly important piece of history because it was the first time that the United States ever invaded another country and like occupied the capital of Mexico. It I mean, it’s it’s incredible. And and it’s kind of really cool to learn some of that history through this like historical novel. That’s like a war story. But it’s also like a love story. And there’s like, really sexy scenes in it. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s an amazing novel. Let’s see. I mean, I read I mean, I read so many more books, but I think those are a good place to start.

Traci Thomas 47:26
I feel like one of the books that you reference is the Paul or tees.

Julissa Arce 47:29
Oh, yes. Thank you very much. Yeah. sums up a bunch. Yes. A lot. Next, an African American History of the United States by polar T’s. Yes. Like, completely blew my mind to learn up all this history that I didn’t know. But more importantly, it wasn’t just the history, but the solidarity between groups that is never talked about. And therefore we think we’ve always been in conflict. When that’s not the that’s not true. Like we’ve come to make, like different groups of people have come together in such beautiful and respectful ways in the past that we could really learn a lot from.

Traci Thomas 48:11
Yeah, yeah. What do you hope people will keep in mind as they read your book.

Julissa Arce 48:17
That I’m not perfect.

Traci Thomas 48:20
I love Okay, here’s my last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Julissa Arce 48:29
My dad? Yeah. I I really wish he could read it. I mean, I wish he could read. I wish I just wish she could be here, you know. But I especially wish she could read this book. Because a lot of the conversations, you know, my dad, like, he didn’t have like, a whole big education. Like, it’s not like he was reading books about history or whatever. But he was always like, a very smart, very curious person. And so I had a lot of conversations with him that he, you know, he would try to make jokes and make them funny, but, but I but I remember, it’s not it’s not in you sound like a white girl. So it’s in my memoir, but I came to visit my parents in the US one time and my dad took me to the Capitol in Austin. And, you know, I was like, man, we had a had a young man who listen Atelier savvy less, like, I’m gonna stop calling, you know, I’m gonna stop being me. If one day I don’t take back Texas for Mexico. Like I was like nine years old.

Traci Thomas 49:31
That’s revolutionary, I love it.

Julissa Arce 49:34
And my dad was just like, you know, like, he was just like, so encouraged and he was like, yeah, like, one day you will do that. And I think he’d be really proud of this book.

Traci Thomas 49:44
I love that. All right, everyone, you’re listening. The book has been out for a total of 24 hours as you’re listening. Go get this book. You sound like a white girl. You can get it anywhere you get your books. There are links to everything we talked about today in the show notes including a link Get this book from bookshop.org to support local bookstores and of course, Julissa just said, Thank you so much for being here.

Julissa Arce 50:07
Thank you. This is such a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Traci Thomas 50:10
Thank you and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, everybody that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you to Julissa for being my guest. Remember the stacks book club pick for March is a mercy by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, March 30. With Imani Perry. If you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you’re listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram at thestackspod_ on Twitter and check out our website thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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Ep. 208 A Mercy by Toni Morrison -- The Stacks Book Club (Imani Perry)
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Ep. 206 Who Are You Loving When You Write with Destiny O. Birdsong