Ep. 234 The Trees by Percival Everett -- The Stacks Book Club (Lisa Lucas)

Written By Megan Caballero

Today, publisher Lisa Lucas returns to help us break down the 2021 crime novel The Trees by Percival Everett. In discussing the page-turning thriller, we admire the brilliance of the humor and history on every page, and the mastery Percival Everett himself. We also ask questions around the future, past, and present of the United States in the face of palpable political tensions.There are spoilers on this episode.

Be sure to listen all the way to end of the episode to find out what our October book club pick will be!

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and it is book club day. For this episode we welcome back Lisa Lucas who is a Senior Vice President and publisher at Pantheon books. She and I dig into The Trees by Percival Everett, which is a suspenseful thriller that opens with a string of unsolved killings in Money, Mississippi. This is a fast paced puzzling murder mystery of a novel with so much humor and so much searing critique of American culture. It takes on police brutality, racism, and of course, the horrible legacy of lynching. In today’s conversation, there are spoilers. Make sure to listen through to the end of the show to hear what our October book club pick will be. Quick reminder, everything Lisa and I discussed on today’s episode can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the show, and you want more of it head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack. The stacks is an indie podcast, which means I rely on listeners like you to make the show possible week in and week out. By joining the stacks back you affirm my mission to uplift great books often by folks who are underestimated in the publishing world. You also get to earn perks like our monthly virtual book club bonus episodes. This month’s episode is with crea miles and access to our Discord channel. If you’d like to be a part of this wonderful bookish community head to patreon.com/the stacks and join thank you to our newest members, Elizabeth Mota, Kate Prince, CG Tracy Harris and Cate Mannion. Thank you all so much. And of course, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to the stacks back. And now it’s time for my spoiler filled conversation with Lisa Lucas about The Trees by Percival Everett

All right, everybody. I am very excited today to talk about a novel Believe it or not. It’s the book club day. We’re back with Lisa Lucas. Lisa, welcome back.

Lisa Lucas 2:00
Thank you for having me again.

Traci Thomas 2:02
I’m thrilled that you’re here. I’m thrilled that we’re talking about personal Everett’s the trees. Before I even asked you what you thought of the book my toxic traders I always forget to explain what the book is about before the book club episode. So I’m going to do a quick try to remember to do this every episode. Okay? The trees it is a thriller, a literary Thriller Murder Mystery, satire about some lynchings in money, Mississippi that are maybe connected to history that starts to take over the country. And it’s about the people involved in the people trying to figure out what’s going on. And it’s so fucking good. And the last thing that I’ll say before I asked you what you thought of the book is, we will be spoiling this book. So if you haven’t read it yet, this is your own problem. Now, this is not our problem, you can pause it and come back and listen, or you can just be spoiled and read it later. Okay, Lisa, what do you think generally of the trees?

Lisa Lucas 2:57
So, before even talking about the trees, I want to talk about, first of all, who’s just been one of 30 books over 30 books, a whole career and just nails it to some degree every single time. And I just think that this book was just taking off. And there’s all these nominations for awards, and people are so excited about it. And it makes tons of sense, because we’re in this like, peculiar, yet again, racial moment in this nation. I mean, it’s never stopped being peculiar, really. But it’s especially peculiar at this particular moment. And the politics are so insane. And I think that we’re talking a lot about what history was, and what the consequences of history are. And that can be really, really, really, really overwhelming, right? Like, it’s like we have a lot in front of us. And I think even for people who are politically active and very progressive, you know, that are like, we want more rights. We want more justice, we want labor unions, we want, you know, autonomy physically, emotionally, economically, right? We want the right to be ourselves. But it’s still overwhelming to sort of think about all the injustice being done every day, which is why I think that personal is brand of incredible black satire, which is something that’s adjacent to like, whole history of how we tell the story of how fucked up this country is. It’s such a perfect, perfect book for right now. And I think the thing that makes it so perfect is that it’s a political book, and it has a very clear point of view. But it’s hilarious. And it’s, it’s almost loving, in it sort of, like send up of just American bullshit. Mm hmm. And, and I just, I thought it was like a quick, you know, you can’t put it down. It doesn’t feel like a novel in the sense that you’re just like, it feels like you’ve been sucked in and then shot out on the other side. Yeah. And there’s just sentences. You know, on this sort of top line, right, like the political overarching narrative hits, nailed it. On the sort of like technical side, just the craft of it, the skill of it. The something that feels easy that so technically difficult nails it, you know, and then just that humor, like, real understanding of sort of just like America, it cartoons, everyone. Yeah, but everybody’s actually just a cartoon here. Right like, right it cartoons. Everyone like we are like America is become a cartoon. And I think this book really sums up just how ridiculous totally, totally.

Traci Thomas 5:32
Okay, so for me, I wouldn’t just book a little skeptical as I always do with any book that’s like very buzzy in the moment. And any book that’s a novel because I just generally am like, and I usually think that I’m too stupid to read satire. So like, there was a lot of things going into this book where I was like, oh my god, this is gonna be really hard on me. The first chapter is maybe the most perfect example of like, character development, setting humor history, like that first chapter, I finished it, and I just wrote down holy shit first chapter, like, it’s so perfect. And I knew from that exact moment, I was like, I’m in good hands. I have no clue where we’re going. But like, I feel safe as a reader. And I also feel on edge as a reader, which is the best feeling of like, knowing you’re in the hands of a master, but also being like, this guy’s gonna fuck me up like I just I already know. So I loved it from John line. Yeah. The first line is money. Mississippi looks exactly like it sounds. And if you’ve been paying attention, you know exactly what money Mississippi Yep. And you know exactly where you’re located. And it’s a master class and show don’t tell ya, it’s so it is. And then from there. I mean, I was laughing so hard for real and not just like the little like chuckle like, Oh, that was clever. But like I genuinely was like tickled on the inside and parts and like, and also revolted. Like, it’s just such an evocative novel. And I mean, that in the sense that like, it really evoked emotion out of me, and like feelings, and I squirmed, and I would giggle and I would be like, Wait, what is he trying to say with that are like, Oh my god, I’m in trouble. I’m being implicated. And like, I just the point being, I think it’s worthy of all of the excitement and buzz around it. And I’m in LA, as you know, and a friend of mine is friends with Danti Cena, who is personals wife, and I guess they were out to dinner last week. And she was like, I’m running late, because apparently my husband has become a celebrity overnight. Which is just so funny to think about as a person who’s written 30 Plus books. Oh, now he’s a celebrity.

Lisa Lucas 7:42
Interesting story, though. And I’m full disclosure. I’m quite good friends with tansy as well. And I don’t know principle terribly well. But I think that is actually a really material point of just his career. And I know we’re talking about the book itself. Sure. This is a person who’s written 30 books, a ratio, you know, I mean, I’m just gonna look through the just think of the books that I’ve loved. arratia personal Everett by Virgil Russell. I am not Sidney Poitier A Yes, I mean, it’s just all of these are extraordinary. And the idea that somebody as talented as possible, wasn’t famous. You know, I went to France one year, and somebody was like, Oh, do you know Percival Everett, he is our favorite American writer. And I was like, Oh, my God. And so personal ever. It is wildly popular in France, but very difficult here, you know? Yeah. And not sort of, in any way, like under loved or whatever. But like, but no, you know, for for someone as truly talented as possible is, it’s telling that this moment in time is where we see the accolades coming. And so yeah, it must be surprising for Dante’s 30. But we knew he was talented, but why wasn’t everybody paying attention? Why aren’t the awards paying attention? And, and I think that it’s really good to see that there’s space in this sort of, like awards industrial complex, or the literary industrial complex. To make room for personal is one of our great writers. Yeah, glad that this book is the one that you know that. Yeah. I mean, I, I haven’t read a ton of his other stuff. But I do think that like something about this book, you know, I’m especially getting to see usually on the show, we record the book club episode when we recorded our first episode, but we’re recording this a few weeks later. So I’m getting to watch as the people who are reading along with us are having reactions to this book, seeing what a broad spectrum of people like the book, and I that always is a big moment for me as I’m like, Well, why do you like this book? Like I know what I like this book as a black woman as a mixed race woman of descendent of Southerners. Like, I know what’s working for me, I’m curious what’s working for you, Canadian white lady, or like, I’m curious what’s working for you? And, and so that’s been interesting too, but I think that there’s

Traci Thomas 10:00
Definitely like you’re getting at something about this book and this moment in time in America, at least, but also the world that it’s the right book at the right time told in the right way. Yeah, like that a really sincere book that dealt with lynching. Maybe wouldn’t work right now. But the satirical part of it, I feel like this what people are like, it’s it’s disarming in a sense, and maybe it’s a companion piece, right? Like we are reading a lot about lynchings there’s a line. We’re one of the characters says, like, you know, I’ve been tracking all the lynchings in the county or lynchings, you know, everywhere, and account police killings, too. Yeah. Right. And so we’re watching actually, on the news, this, you know, the story of the lynchings, we are seeing this lie. This has been you know, everybody knows who Emmett Till everybody knows the story of the open casket. I mean, hopefully everybody knows. But this is a companion piece to me. Right? Like, that’s what fiction does it actually create depth and nuance in our understanding. That’s sort of what we read. And I think, you know, you mentioned what does the Canadian lady care about this white Canadian lady? Right? Well, this is a particularly American book. And I don’t know, if you’re, you know, I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t be interested in the trees. If you weren’t interested in reading about America, particularly from elsewhere. There not an enormous number of sort of honest depictions of the American South, or of race in America and literature. I think we’re increasing. We’re doing really well with more of those books. But you know, but it’s proportional to the impact that race has on the US, we certainly don’t have explorations of the sort of multifaceted racial situation that we live in, you know, to scale. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I have to ask you, so you’re reading the book? What are you thinking in real time on your first read? is happening? Like, do you? Because like, when I read a thriller, type book, I’m like, Okay, this is going to be the ending this of what’s going on? At what point did you feel like you knew where he was going? Or did you ever feel like you figured it out? Or like, what did you think was going on?

Lisa Lucas 11:56
I kind of thought I knew where he was going. But again, you know, this book didn’t feel to me like the point. Of course, you want a satisfying conclusion, whatever. But, you know, I have to say that I didn’t really give a shit. Where he was going, you know, you didn’t care who was behind it. No, I mean, I did. And I didn’t, but the journey was the joy. Yeah, sure. I agree. I well, but I was like, what’s going on? I was like, it was the corner fusion? Yes. Yes. At first, I was like, the corner is secretly going to be a good white person. And then I was like, okay, he’s the grand Kleagle. Okay, that was a wrong guess. And then I was like, Oh, I thought it was maybe the sheriff read Jedi. And he had his own revelation. But I thought maybe he was involved. And then eventually, I was like, oh, maybe we’re never going to find out. Like maybe he’s never going to tell us. And that’s like, the point is that we don’t You don’t ever get a satisfying answer in these situations. And then we found out that it was Mama Z and Gertrude slash Dixie. And that was like, I think maybe the obvious answer all along, but I sort of like was thinking he was gonna do something. Like, I was like, maybe it’s aliens. Like, I was, like, coming up with all these different ideas. But I do think that that was the point for him was like, It’s the fucking people that I told you. It was gonna be like, Yeah, I did it. I think. I think I think I thought that’s what it was going to be from jump. Yeah, again, I was like, who knows? Maybe it’ll be surprised. Maybe not. But again, the journey was just such a delicious, like, ridiculous, insane. romp, that it was kind of like, this is fine. And I just wanted to spend it, you know, the, you know, I guess, if I were to say, you know, my big takeaway from the book is that I just, I didn’t care as much about the thriller, as I cared about the people. I mean, like, I just wanted to be with them in these small little talk scenes where it was like, just something random was happening, or somebody was making a joke, or, you know, just and there were all these little reveals. Yeah, it wasn’t like, you know, you knew we were talking about it’s like, you know, we’re talking about Emma tell ya, from John. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the bytes. Carolyn Bryant, right, though? I don’t know that everybody knows that name. No, I don’t think everyone knows that name. But I think that people do know money. And I think that for somebody who’s paid attention to the history, and also was aware of the news when she actually recanted, recanted and then re recanted.

Traci Thomas 14:18
Whatever, she’s

Lisa Lucas 14:18
whatever, something crazy, whatever

Traci Thomas 14:20
she’s up to now,

Lisa Lucas 14:21
but when that happened, I think a lot of people, you know, were paying attention. So I think there’s enough context for people who are coming to the book, like, I’m actually interested in that history. You know, and I don’t know, the flap copy, you know, really references Emmett Till. So you’re not like looped in there. You know, we’re guiding you that far. You don’t I mean, yeah,

Traci Thomas 14:40
we’re giving you what you need to know. I want to talk about the chapters. What did you think of the short chapters? I’m curious, like, what do you what do you think they do or did or served in the book at the end? A little while, just the fact that all the chapters are like, it’s I mean, there’s 108 chapters on a 300 page book just taking

Lisa Lucas 14:59
space to move into different psyches, you know, and I also really liked the fact that they’re short, because you have these tight little scenes that really just like they are all taught, they’re all punchy. Right? And they’re all telling you something that you need. And so it’s a very, you know, sort of, I think that’s what makes the book Swift. Three, that you’re sort of moving into these, like, it’s almost like a punch line, a punch line, a punch. I mean, personal is a great joke. Yeah, on top of being a really exquisite fiction writer. Yeah. And so it’s like, you know, almost like each chapter is a

Traci Thomas 15:31
joke. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like each chapter is like, a scene or something in a movie, right? Like, it’s like all the jump cuts. It was definitely usually we talked about, like, with this book, make a good like movie or TV show. And from early stages. I was like, this would be such a good movie. It’s giving like a Quentin Tarantino vibe, right? Like the extra gory violence like the jumping around the comical characters. Like it’s just good. It’s like begging to be a movie like it and just like, dialogue very,

Lisa Lucas 16:01
he’s very dialogue is very deadly. But but just to the point of, if you look at the end of every single chapter, there’s like a joke at the end. I mean, it’s like chapter 29, where it’s just like, all manner of, you know, crazy stuff is going on. And the last line is, I’ll be in later first, I’m gonna go talk to an old lady, you know, and it’s just like, there’s just these like, you know, I won’t shoot nobody who don’t need shooting. Yeah. You know, being by Burgess is gonna kill that little nigger, you know? Yeah. I mean, like,

Traci Thomas 16:30
it’s just a single one. Every single one. Okay, aunt Daisy, hold

Lisa Lucas 16:34
still hot. Mama yeller, the girl said, you know, I mean, it’s just like there’s it’s history as a motherfucker hand said. Yeah, it’s just every single one is just this perfect little pearl of a punch line to wrap up, you know, it’s fantastic. But it is an emetic.

Traci Thomas 16:51
Yeah, it’s very sitcom to like, it’s like right before the commercial break, like that.

Lisa Lucas 16:56
Master pay thing. It’s like, Yeah, I think the short chapters are about again, this book is so sophisticated, that it has no business being this easy to read. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And that’s what makes him a Master.

Traci Thomas 17:09
Yeah. And like the sentences that are like, there’s these really rich, delicious sentences, but it’s not 100 word sentence. It’s like five words like he he. I mean, I talk about this a lot on the show, and just in life, and I think about books is like, there’s something to be said, for skilled, seasoned writers. Like, I love a debut as much as anyone else. When there’s like a great debut, and it takes you and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is so exciting. This is a new voice. I can’t wait to see what they do next. And then reading versus reading, like, someone who’s written 30 books, right? It’s like, Oh, my God,

Lisa Lucas 17:47
like, I think we get so excited about the debut, we get so excited. And really, like, you know, every writer hopefully, develops on their career, they learn something, they they master their own voice, right. Yeah. And this is what you’re reading here is 30 books that’s practice that and I think that we have to remember, we all love new things. Oh, yeah. New trends. We always want to discover things. Except that, you know, there’s so much to be gotten from, you know, caring about and supporting and engaging with our masters.

Traci Thomas 18:21
Yeah, yeah. And I, and you feel that, like, I could just feel that I was safe reading this book, in the sense of like, the right, like, I wasn’t going to get to a point and be like, Oh, these sentences have gotten weird, like this book, like, I definitely didn’t have the thing that I have so often, which is like, this book could be 100 pages shorter. Like I was like, No, I need every single page, every single chapter. Did you happen to notice that there are two missing chapters, there’s no chapter 74. And there’s no chapter 104. And I truly have no clue what to make of that. I’m like, I don’t I don’t know what that means. I don’t know if I’m supposed to know what that means. I don’t know if it’s like a nod to some like, address or something. But I was like, and, you know, sort of easter

Lisa Lucas 19:05
egg that I ever get. It’s, I’m just not that kind of reader. Like I remember taking this class in college that was just like, you know, about close reading and fiction. And it was like we started and it was Edgar Allan Poe and blah, blah, blah, happens. And it was the Cask of Amontillado. And then, you know, we all read it, and we’re discussing it. And it was like the teachers, did anybody look up what a motto is, we were 17. And we’re like, No, you know, and then it had any sort of meaningful plot points, you know, it’s just like, and I was just always like, Oh, no, I wasn’t here for that. I didn’t need to get the inside joke about Monte Otto.

Traci Thomas 19:37
I’m with you. I rarely noticed these things. But I just there was a moment in an earlier chapter where I thought I, I thought he had done it, but I’d actually just skipped the chapter, one page and then I was like, I wonder if he’s gonna do it. And so I looked it

Lisa Lucas 19:51
up. I read this twice. And absolutely, just like it just occurred to me. Yeah, I

Traci Thomas 19:55
feel like unless you’re really paying attention, like I just like okay, new chapter. I’m not like thinking I Get out the numbers. But then once I found out I was like, I wonder what this means. And the thing about him that I, you know, I tried to prepare, like, listen to interviews and stuff, but he’s one of those writers who will tell you exactly zero about his work. Like, it’s like, why do you do this? And he’s like, Why do you think I do this? I’m like, Okay, first of all, it’s a lot just give me an answer, or don’t do the interview.

Lisa Lucas 20:19
Formally playful. I mean, when you think about even the telephone book that was out, right before this one, which had three different

Traci Thomas 20:25
endings, right, right. You know, it was like no way to know when you get it.

Lisa Lucas 20:30
So I think that he really does enjoy, you know, just even being a black man writing in this context about lynchings and about American racialized violence. It’s like, I think, you know, how many black people you do, you know, who are able to walk through this world without a sense of humor? Right, even if we are going through everything that we’re going through, right, right. Yeah. And he’s often I think, the chapters missing and the extra endings. And it’s like, he just he’s never lost his sense of play. And that, to me is beautiful.

Traci Thomas 21:01
Yeah. And I think like, you can tell he’s pushing. Yeah, he’s like, we’re gonna do this because no one else is doing it. And I just want to just want to give a little nudge and see what that might open, which again, is like so enjoyable. But speaking of things that he will not explain the character names in this.

Lisa Lucas 21:18
Like character names so much Helvetica is just my favorite joke with the font. The font

Traci Thomas 21:28
was amazing surnames Helvetica new.

Lisa Lucas 21:31
Well, you didn’t want to be Helvetica new. Oh, right. She didn’t if she had actually kept taking the name of the man that she married that Ranger down to Mississippi, she would have she would have been new. It was a perfect joke. Are you kidding? It was just a perfect joke and then oh my god, all of them. They have such wonderful ridiculous names. I mean, Dr. Reverend Dr. Fondo

Traci Thomas 21:52
fond all Yeah, I love red Jedi. I don’t know why, but for some reason, Sheriff red Jedi, it just really works for me. Some of them are like ridiculous. Like there’s like the her her Berta, which I love. There’s so many I mean, there’s so many like buckwild names in this book. I mean, even like mama, mama yellow you. Can I say it? Hot. Mama yeller?

Lisa Lucas 22:16
How long have you when the cops are in there and they overhear somebody called her hot mama yeller, I died. I mean, it’s just so much and then when they get on the when they’re on the radios and they go to their secret channel?

Traci Thomas 22:25
Oh, yeah. It’s like, Oh, I gotta go clean the freezer. So, I feel like the two detectives like our two lead guys who come in from the MBI they have like super regular regular names. Yeah. Which I love. Yeah. Because I feel like especially so many. You know, in so many things. It’s like the black people are named. Jamiroquai. Boni wisher, Nika and it’s like nomophobia, you get to be red Jedi and Reverend fondo. And we get to be like Ed

Lisa Lucas 22:58
Normie is coming from Jackson to like crazy, crazy money. Right? Sure. Yeah, I mean, it’s like

Traci Thomas 23:05
even people outside of money who are like the white people outside of money have wild names like the their treasury secretary for Trump is like some ridiculous arcane saga like I just love that like small little twist that like you have these two just like norm core dudes with just norm coordinate aims. Just moseying through try to do their job with all this craziness around them and using good so

Lisa Lucas 23:30
laryea Finally, what in the world,

Traci Thomas 23:34
but I feel like okay, so he was one of the things that I was really like, maybe stuck on or like working through was what, what personal ever trying to say about black police officers or police officers or the law in general, right, because like, that’s such a huge conversation within the book. We also have her Berta Herbie. And then we have some Asian police officers in California later on. And I mean, like the first thing, of course, is they are sending in all the police officers of color to deal with this these like crimes, but the victims in the cases are the white people that have been killed, but not the also dead bodies of people of color that are also dead and considerably more dead, I believe is how it’s described there. Even Debtor or older, super, super dead, like there’s so many different ways that they’re described as being like, dead or dead plus, and it’s, I just, there’s like something. There’s something so interesting that like, oh, the victim in this case, is the white body, the white bodies, right? And these other people are potentially the perpetrators, even though they’re pre dead. So I don’t know. I was wondering kind of how you were thinking about the like law enforcement aspect, and

Lisa Lucas 24:50
I think about it the same way, think about everybody. Nobody’s really spared a little ridiculousness. Everybody has made a fool here. And I think that’s, you know, Who knows, it’s not a book that I’ve spent like editorially, you know, three years

Traci Thomas 25:03
with or whatever mean either

Lisa Lucas 25:07
and so it’s hard to say but I do think that the equity in the you know, sort of American send up in this it takes some shots at the cops not in an obvious way not an all cops are bastards way not in sort of 2020 defund the police way but in a sort of like, everybody’s sort of feckless. You know, everybody’s sort of feckless and confused and sort of like, doesn’t know what the hell is going on. To some degree, right.

Traci Thomas 25:38
I read it in a little bit of a defund the police 2020 way. Like the fact that like they didn’t figure it out that it had to, like be explained to them what was going on. And like the fact that it kept happening, and they were losing the bodies and all that stuff. It was like, it doesn’t really matter, that they’re black, like, yeah, they’re still not doing a great job. They’re still fucking up. They’re still the police. I mean, there’s that line where mom is talking to her Berta. And she says, like, Oh, her Berta says like, Oh, I’m sorry. And then she says, Oh, is that official from the US government? And she’s like, Well, I’m a black woman. And she’s like, well, now you see my my issue. And then there’s another part where she said, you know, there might be some civil rights violations involved. And Mama’s he says, who’s civil rights? And she says, I don’t know yet. And then Mama’s he says, I asked, because you have to have order for them to be violated. And I like all of that.

Lisa Lucas 26:30
I do. To your point, I do think that actually, the book has event. Yeah, I don’t think the treatment of the police do MonaVie is your progressive, right, the person who’s playing cop killings, or, you know, so that, so I don’t, I don’t think that there’s not a 2020 deep on the police thread running through it. Yeah, but it’s not to me, it didn’t show up to me in the sort of the cops as much as it was the people around them. Like, they were silly, like, everybody was kind of bad at their job. You know, everybody was confused. And, and to me, that’s sort of like, America is such a disaster. And there’s so much stuff going on that nobody can really figure out what to do, even it’s in, in their stupid perspectives, you know, largely, and then a bunch of people just suffering as a result of it. And you know, and they felt like a part of that matrix. But it didn’t feel like a specific stand up of the cops. It felt like a sendup of America. Like it’s like for me again, this felt like because it widen, to be the whole country. It really feels like this is like, this feels like a super American book. Like it’s just so broad. And so I didn’t read it in that like, sort of, oh, these stupid cops. This is why they shouldn’t be cops. This is why we shouldn’t have cops. I think Mom Aziz, because that perspective is really what the sort of political core of the book.

Traci Thomas 27:43
Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I definitely think that like Mama Z, and even more specifically, for me that Damon is like the moral center of the book, right? Like, there’s the scene with the paper and the writing the names and all that. But like, even as you’re saying, like, as it spreads, and it takes over the whole country, like, I just keep thinking about how it’s happening, and it keeps happening. And like that, that is an indictment on the system. And that like it’s an indictment on America, but so much of America is obsessed with our law enforcement and punishment and like being such a punitive country, that I feel like I almost can’t separate those two things. I think in the reading, it’s like,

Lisa Lucas 28:21
yeah, we do, though, that I think overall, we’re in that yeah, I feel like actually, the cops behavior in and of itself felt more lazy. Just showing you how foolish they all are. Yeah, no matter what, whether it’s the Mississippi cops or the MBI, and everybody’s fighting about who’s this And who’s that and that result intimidated. It just to me, it felt like a real articulation of, you know, a confusion between everyone, right? Like, it’s like, nobody understands me, nobody can collaborate. Like it’s like, and that to me feels like the country we live in. Yeah, like for sure this division between the city slickers and, but nobody actually has really good intentions. So you have the country folks, and you have the City Slickers. And nobody really actually has good intentions at all. And they’re just fighting with each other, you know, being intimidated of each other and not getting things done. You know, and I think it makes them human in a sort of foolish way. Right? Like you just like, we think these people are gods, right? They have a gun. And we’ve been told that laws are laws and you’re here, right? Or laws, and what it does is make a fool out

Traci Thomas 29:24
of all of them. Right, but that, to me, is an indictment of them. Like that. Diamond that I’m reading of them,

Lisa Lucas 29:31
I just read it as sort of like he’s showing the humanity of everyone. Sure. And Mama Z is the only person who really feels intentionally here to like tell you or Damon to tell right? That there’s a real problem. Right? Right. So I think you’re saying the same thing similar things yes. Like I think overall my take is the same as yours. But yeah, I think so. actual plot points of the cops feel like they are more specifically there to just remind you of the human fallacy,

Traci Thomas 29:57
right? It’s the show not tell part. They’re not

Lisa Lucas 30:01
right like they’re not all evil like the racists are racists. And the fact was, they’re not all one thing like if you wanted to say like, you’d make them do bad thing, if you really wanted to hammer in the point that they shouldn’t exist.

Traci Thomas 30:12
Well, right and I think them not being like overly horrible is sort of the point, right? Like, you don’t have to be a corrupt cop to be part of a fucked up system. That’s useless. racist and all these

Lisa Lucas 30:23
things get different point, right? Yeah, it doesn’t. Yeah, like marching down the street. 2020. It’s like, I’m not showing you the humanity of a feckless cop. That’s like, probably not a bad person, but like, shouldn’t be doing his job and she the system. That’s a soft point. If you’re trying to police.

Traci Thomas 30:37
Yeah, totally. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break, and we’re gonna be right back. Okay, we talked, we touched on this earlier about, like, the history in the book and how, you know, personal Everett knows all his history. One of the things I did talking about close readings look into was all the different cities were that are mentioned in the book outside of money, or all the sight of a lynching or a real life history. So there’s like the Rockies Rockies, Rock Springs, Wyoming, mighty Mississippi, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Chicago, there’s one in Elaine Arkansas, which I really love the names there were Carl Winslow, I don’t know if that’s the guy’s real name or not. But there’s a Carl and a laurel Winslow in that scene, which is family matters, shout out. But, but I just loved that, like, the locations of the places and like I think for me, a lot of the like anti Asian lynchings and things that are brought up in the book are things that we don’t talk about as much in history. And there’s this idea that like the recent spat of anti Asian immigrant, anti Asian and anti immigrant hatred is new. And that it’s like a product of COVID that people because of China flu that Donald Trump was saying, That’s why people are hurting Asian elders. And while I’m sure that that has led to an uptick of that now, you know, Los Angeles was the site of one of the largest lynchings I think in like eight, the 1870s, right here in Los Angeles on a street called like Negro Lane are something which is really just, it’s just icing on the cake. They killed, like 30 Chinese immigrants at that massacre. And so that is the reference point like to being in LA in the book, but I liked that he included those lynchings as well. Because it would have been easier and less accurate to just do the murders of black people. I mean, I don’t know if that’s easy, but like it would have been the obvious choice, I think is a better way of saying it. And like seeing all the names on the list on the cover as well as in the book and like seeing the names of, of Chinese people as well. I was very, you know, not excited. It’s not a good word. But I was like, oh, yeah, he’s really nailing it with the history.

Lisa Lucas 32:48
Yeah, no. And I think that that’s one of the things that this kind of work really does so well, which is, you know, it’s nobody’s like, Yes, I need to like deep dive in history, you know, or not everyone is that way. And, and he makes it really fun. And fun is the wrong word. But he makes it really, you know, interesting, it’s compelling to actually learn about it, and it gently remind you that history is now right, that it’s like that all of this stuff that happens affects who we are right now, which is that what, you know, if I were to say that this is anything, you know, you were making a point about cops earlier. But I think that what, this doesn’t even more than being an indictment of police officers, or law enforcement or, you know, lynchings in the country, you think that it really stands back and says, you know, that all of these questions about critical race theory and about 1619, about how we teach history and about what is relevant and what matters, that this actually is our history. And this actually does have a relationship to our police officers and to communities that you don’t think of and people that you think and you don’t know the history, as long as you keep saying this, people need to know, they will know, you know, and whether or not you’re sort of running around mass murdering people or not. People will know that all of these things have happened, you cannot do it and pretend like it didn’t happen and move on and expect to have a healthy, thriving happy society. And I think that that, for me is the takeaway, which is like our resistance to acknowledging our history will destroy us. Yeah, and I won’t just destroy wave books. It will destroy

Traci Thomas 34:23
all of us. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

Lisa Lucas 34:27
that feels like the real indictment here, which is like, yeah, American society is not looking. It’s not willing to understand its history so that we can move forward and actually stop

Traci Thomas 34:37
1,000% I think that like more than anything, this book is an indictment on on I guess white supremacy and the ways that that it’s fear of being unmasked or or however you want to phrase it is. is damaging and self it will sell it will implode and it will take down everyone with it.

Lisa Lucas 34:58
But it also the anger the end doesn’t look away from the anger that we have. Right? It’s not a book that says like we are, you know, nonviolent protesters and that like all of us are sort of following along with the teachings of Martin Luther King Jr. You know, it’s like it’s a book about black rage.

Traci Thomas 35:15
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Lucas 35:16
And, and revenge and revenge. Right. Exactly. Which is, which is where we’re headed. You don’t I mean, it’s like we’re headed to some kind of, it’s like, you cannot wait, the situation that we live in is completely unsupportable over a long time. And over 400 years,

Traci Thomas 35:32
yes. For as long as it’s been around, right. I feel like it’s making me think of, I don’t know if how I know you’re, no, you’re up on things. But I don’t know how apparent you are on Bill Maher. But this week, Bill Maher had crazy crazy things to say about slavery, and he talked about how you know, I’ll link to it in the show notes because I can’t do the whole bit but he did a whole thing about how slavery is for was everywhere and black people so black people into slavery, and everyone has been enslaved and slot slave comes from Slav which is for Slavic and his whole this whole like, thing about basically black people get over it. Everyone’s been a slave, you’re not special. And it reminded me, Bill Maher’s. I hate him so much. He’s such a horrible person in a piece of shit, which I have covered often on this podcast because I despise him. But I felt like that that line of thinking is like so obviously in conversation with what personal ever it’s doing in this book, which is like, yeah, sure, go off. You’re so a historical You’re such an idiot. Like, say whatever you want. But guess what? A dead bodies coming on your doorstep to my guy, like can’t get away from

Lisa Lucas 36:39
pop up? Yeah, do it because we where can we go?

Traci Thomas 36:43
Right? There’s a record of this stuff. Like there is a Mama Z of American history, right? Like she is the she’s the personification of an Ida B. Wells Barnett. She’s the personification of journalists of, of mothers of sons of daughters. Numbers, what happened that remember

Lisa Lucas 37:00
that called a racist slur, the first time I’m located one go out with you, because you were too black, the first time that you didn’t get a job, or that something funky happened to you. It’s like we all have. So there’s a big record of all the lynchings that have ever happened. And there’s a big record of all the crimes that have ever been done. And there’s little teeny individual records in every single black and brown and bipoc household in this nation that’s filled with grievances, and that his grievances are not addressed. You have an overwhelming majority of this nation as of what 2014 Something that will have enormous grievances towards the minority in this country, and it’s just not sustainable.

Traci Thomas 37:41
No, no. And I mean, like, I don’t know if you had this feeling at all. But like, when I was reading the book, I kept thinking of Toni Morrison, I kept thinking of the seven days from Song of Solomon, Mama Z, being in conversation with that. I just was like, who else is doing revenge civil rights murders, like, only Toni Morrison. And, I mean, I love that that sort of like, I don’t even know it was on purpose. But I love the hat tip. It felt like I had tips. Yeah. And I was like, Oh,

Lisa Lucas 38:07
I see. If it is, if it feels like what it might be,

Traci Thomas 38:11
probably is one. Yeah. But he also has a reference to the bottom which is, which is location Sula. You know, and I just, I was thinking about like this work being in conversation with our with our previous writers. I know you talked about that the beginning obviously like a book like black no more is a black, you know, is a satire about blackness in America. And like, I think that I think that like Mama Z personal ever is like calling out to the writers who have done this work before him who have written the novels before him that address these topics, or address similar topics in a similar way, like something like a more contemporary like Paul Beatty’s the sellout. You know, it’s like the same kind of sad Tyree thing, different topic, but the same kind of civil rights, satire. I don’t know if civil rights is the right word. But like, I really appreciate that because it feels it feels in line with what his characters are doing, like what he’s doing as an author feels in line with what Mama Z is doing is like calling out to the voices of the past. And I just, I really, I really liked that.

Lisa Lucas 39:15
You don’t spend as many pages of these, you know, a book like this with names of people, you know, unless you really want to make a point. I mean, there’s seriousness here it is funny, and it is this ridiculous sort of rumpy kind of thriller, you know, but it is, you know, personable, serious as a heart attack. You know, yeah. And I think, oh, yeah, it shows through to,

Traci Thomas 39:35
and that speaks to what you’re talking about before. Like, you can’t be black in America and not be funny. Like, and have a sense of humor and tell a joke and like, you can but Lord is hard. Yeah, then, but then you’re like, I don’t know. I don’t know anybody. Humor. You know what I mean? It’s like, I’ve never met a black person who doesn’t crack a joke about something. Yeah. And well, it’s, ya know, it’s so true. I want to talk about the list of names. And, and Damon because I think, for me, I had a teacher who used to always refer to scenes and acting school is like, who’s the moral center of the play or whatever. And to me, he just leaves off the page as like this moral center of the book. And there’s the line, where mom Aziz, like, you know, you wrote this whole academic text without emotion. And then he says, I did it in the hopes that it would evoke the right kind of outrage. And I feel like that little section right there feels like the heart of this book like that. That is maybe personal talking to himself a

Lisa Lucas 40:30
little that was cool. That’s the personal character. In fact, there is a principal character, there’s like an academic sort of like, you know, right. Right.

Traci Thomas 40:39
Right. And like, hoping and, and I don’t know, I don’t know. I’d love to know what you think of like, do you feel that books can evoke the right kind of outrage? Yeah,

Lisa Lucas 40:50
absolutely. I think the books are source material, right. You know, without Lovecraft and without love crafts, terrible behavior, and a book written about it, but then adapted that then makes everyone in America know about the Tulsa massacre. When you do you know, or watchmen write books that turn into an adapted, I think that we have these incredible, I don’t know that everyone in America will read a book and they change their mind. But I think books tend to sort of speak to an audience of people who know how to repeat the information. And so I think very much they can, I don’t think that it is in the same way that everyone watching Game of Thrones creates an atmosphere infused with Game of Thrones, right? Don’t think it’s the same kind of travel for words on Game

Traci Thomas 41:34
of Thrones doesn’t evoke no doesn’t about anything,

Lisa Lucas 41:36
but it does just saturate the culture shortly, and hard for a book to saturate the culture in the way that a Game of Thrones can. But I think that a lot of the books that have like, look at 1619, right, which was not, which was now a book first was a special section of the New York Times, but these are words. Right, and they changed everything. Right, conversationally in America. I mean, it was huge. I mean, like this is the thing that will have changed right politics and you’re talking about it they built their campaigns, their nasty little white supremacist campaigns around it so it’s like you know, or the idea of anti racism you know, I mean it just like without even was book we’re not have anti racism is not a word that we all use. Now, has everybody read have been anti racist? No. But Tran mitt in a way that I think is really important. So I do think I do think that it can create enormous amount of outrage. I mean, it’s like look at prison abolition. Not everybody is reading the golden Gulag. Right, right. But Ruthie Wilson Gilmore is the reason. And everybody hasn’t read why our prisons obsolete, right, Angela Davis. But these books are the reason they’re the original thinking. And so yes, those books changed our landscape, because without them, our conversations couldn’t have been as robust and informed and learned. And so again, was golden ghoul out of the best seller. No. Does your does everyone’s mom have a position on defunding the police or ending the carceral? State? You know, yeah. And that you can track right back down to Ruthie.

Traci Thomas 43:10
Right. I think it’s i It’s so interesting, because I’m thinking about like the phrase like the right kind of outrage. And it’s interesting, because like the first two books, you mentioned, anti racism and 1619. They really like provoked a platform for people that I would say are on the right or conservative just as much as they did, or people who are on the progressive side. And it’s interesting, because with like that line, the right kind of outrage really depends on who you think is right.

Lisa Lucas 43:40
Well, the thing is the right kind of outrage if you inspire outrage in Yeah, oppressed people of America. Right, it will anger the people who are oppressing. Yeah. And so you never can have just the right kind of rage and no reaction. It’s never gonna happen, right? It’s not

Traci Thomas 43:56
it’s just such an interesting word. Because

Lisa Lucas 43:59
the minute we get, you know, woke, or whatever, you know, or get outrage. There’s an immediate and swift and ferocious response to make sure that that doesn’t keep happening. And that’s been forever.

Traci Thomas 44:10
Yeah, that’s forever and like, we’re recording this right now. It’s banned book week. And I feel like you can track all of the banned book stuff, right? The fuck back to summer 2020 And Barack Obama’s presidency and like that, that all of these groups didn’t even really start coming up till 2000. But I will

Lisa Lucas 44:29
say that I think that the LGBTQ stuff that’s getting banned really heavily, has always been banned. And

Traci Thomas 44:37
the organization’s behind it. Pop up until 2013. That’s not not the parents being like, I’m uncomfortable with gay weddings are all still doing

Lisa Lucas 44:45
I mean, Giovanni’s Room in most schools in America in high school,

Traci Thomas 44:50
right? Right. But now what it is is organized and it’s like these are the books we’re attacking the like, these are the 20 books. We’re going after heavy heavy as these organisms Asians and we’re forming these groups. And we’re showing up at these meetings in this way and using the same script and all of that. And like that’s the that’s the right kind of outrage that has been evoked from, you know, whatever. The thing is,

Lisa Lucas 45:12
I’d argue, though, like in the 50s, and 60s, what kind of banding was happening, what kind of banding was happening when a visible man came out? Maya Angelou put out her book, kind of why the caged bird thing? I don’t know, the history. And I have to say that this is new.

Traci Thomas 45:26
Oh, no, I don’t say no, no, I’m not saying that the

Lisa Lucas 45:29
organization because it’s like, it’s just not the clan anymore. Right? You’re looking at this like, shitty clan meeting or this book, like where they just like they’re like, we have another election in a mere seven election. Yeah, just like the electric they die. And it’s the dumbest thing that ever happened. Yeah. But it’s, it’s a new order of organization that’s taking Yeah,

Traci Thomas 45:45
that’s what I mean, new or, I mean, new organizations as in these organizations that are doing it right now are new. Yeah, the organization’s themselves are do not get the organizing around doing horrible things is new, but like that these groups popped up in 2013 2018 2020. Like a new round. Yes, a new group, a new

Lisa Lucas 46:04
organization, like the culture was when I grew up, you know, an NWA without, and yeah, only thing in the news, was it a Tipper Gore, and putting restrictions on things and everybody being so the music, so I mean, so not, I’m not being argumentative, but it’s like, but just where I sat, make unity one as an 11 year old watching what was happening, or 15 year old, they were organized, and they were about hip hop. And that’s what the cultural word then you know what I mean? It was about it was about hip hop. And it was about and

Traci Thomas 46:33
its response to this, like drug culture in this prison culture that people were starting to push back against, and

Lisa Lucas 46:40
the popularity the growing popularity of pop culture, which was starting to export to weight communities, and you had an enormous lash back. Yeah. So I just I think that that whenever there’s like, there’s always some group ready to just oppress us.

Traci Thomas 46:52
Yeah, whoever and, and to do it in an organized way. I think that they want us to believe that it’s like a mom, or it’s just Tipper Gore. No, like, It’s always, it’s always organization. And I feel

Lisa Lucas 47:06
it could be whatever moms or whatever, or moms Liberty now, which is a there was something in the 90s I’m sure there was a lot going on in the 60s with the hippies, where everybody was so scared that their kids were gonna get infected by like, free love and did and it just, it never end. But I think we’re at a point where no one is interested in doing this any longer. I mean, it’s like, it feels like the nation is like on the cusp of civil war. Do you know what I mean? An emotional level war.

Traci Thomas 47:33
Do you ever why this is the thing I always think about though, is like, the like current currency bias, like the recency bias of like, what it feels like now living in it, versus what it would have felt like living like I just always have, maybe it’s my anxiety, but I’ve just always felt like we’re on the edge of something like it’s all and then it’s like, somehow gets worse and pushes somehow farther. And like, maybe because you can’t tell when a thing is done. Or, or you’re in the midst or the beginning or the end. But like, I always feel, I’ve felt like for the last 10 or 15 years, like something terrible is coming, like this way comes. I’m like it’s been coming. But I just feel like I’m like, if I was living in 1860, or like, 1859, would I have known the civil war was coming like, or what I’ve just been like, yeah, things get bad. Like, I want you to tell me the future is what I’m asking.

Lisa Lucas 48:23
Right? Like, I would kill her crystal ball at this point. Seriously?

Traci Thomas 48:27
Okay. One of the things we have to talk about, we always talk about this is the title and the cover. What do you think of the title? What do you think of the cover? Talk to me, you know,

Lisa Lucas 48:38
I like it. I think it’s a beautiful cover. I think gray wolf has always done gorgeous stuff. In the trees is a great title. I don’t have a whole lot to say about it, other than it felt like something I wanted to have on my shelf. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:51
I was really taken by a few, a few parts of it. I mean, I think the trees is like such a vague kind of name. And like the word trees comes up in the book a bunch a bunch of different times in different ways. But like, when you look at the cover than the columns of the names, like they could be tree trunks they like it reminds me of like the lynching monument in in Alabama, that Bryan Stevenson, you know, was spearheaded, and like, also, like, it looks like the Vietnam War Memorial. Like there’s so it’s like, so evocative of like an official,

Lisa Lucas 49:25
I love when people pay attention to this stuff. Because you know, at work I’m always working on, you know, largely, there’s some concepts that like, that may gesture to somebody, but you can’t always like, literally be like, you are looking at an auction, or, you know, an architectural rendering of a memorial that’s in the word trees, which is about lynching and low hanging fruit. It’s like, so I think maybe I’m just jaded when I’m sort of like, I like the cover quite a lot. You know, like, I like the title quite a lot. You know, like, yeah, because, yeah, the package, I’m often reading it before the package is done.

Traci Thomas 49:56
Right, right. Right, right. Yeah. So you’re not you don’t get to

Lisa Lucas 49:59
read Add a little less to covers and let them blow me away. There’s aesthetic, like just happens. That’s

Traci Thomas 50:05
how I feel. If I love a cover I like and this one, I think this book really because I didn’t when I saw it online for the first time I didn’t I couldn’t see the name. So when I actually got my copy, I was like, oh, there’s names there. Like that’s a thing. And also, like, I guess we should talk about the rise. I don’t know if you remember, but like, the book starts. After the title, there’s the page and it just says rise. And then the book ends with Mama Z, saying like, rise over and over. And like asking the police if they’re going to stop Damon from writing the name? Because she’s like, are you going to stop them? And then it’s like, Rise Rise, and there’s like a storm and rise right. I feel like it’s giving report you so vibe he’s giving? It’s giving blood and soil? No book. Yeah, it’s like, there’s a lot of blood. And it’s gonna rise right? On acting crazy. Yeah. What do you think happens in the end? Do you think that our our black police officers arrest Mama Z and Damon and Gretchen?

Lisa Lucas 51:08
Never know when things like end and that way? I never know. And I almost don’t want to do any mean? It’s like, yeah,

Traci Thomas 51:15
I always don’t fantasize about like, this is what’s gonna happen.

Lisa Lucas 51:19
I don’t. I don’t

Traci Thomas 51:21
interesting. I

Lisa Lucas 51:22
know that sounds crazy. But it’s like, I feel like I’ve spoken to so many authors after I’ve read a book and been like, Did this happen? And they’re like,

or you weren’t supposed to know. Like, right. So I just sort of like, I think I just like to be in a tight little moment. Right.

Traci Thomas 51:37
Okay. That’s fair. I always like to be like, This is what I think happened. Yeah. I think they don’t arrest them. And then I think that then they become like, complicit in the whole thing.

Lisa Lucas 51:47
Really? Okay. I don’t know. I mean, I guess that’s the thing, too. I never really know. I mean, and that made me just me. Yeah, like our lack of educated reader. I don’t know. But it’s like, but yeah, that would be I liked that ended. I like

Traci Thomas 51:59
to cause a little chaos.

Lisa Lucas 52:03
That’s the sort of in the, you know, sort of imaginary, you know, wilderness that carrying on. The story continues forever. I wouldn’t mind. Yeah. I mean, she’s definitely not presented as somebody who’s like, locked up and live this terrible life paying for all her sins.

Traci Thomas 52:20
I think she wanted to be caught. Yeah, so she’s, uh, but it doesn’t seem like you know,

Lisa Lucas 52:23
the whole thing didn’t play out like, Oh, well. Damn. She’s, yeah.

Traci Thomas 52:27
No, no, no, she I mean, she’s taking a cyanide pill or something like she’s I don’t, even if they do arrest her. She’s not going to jail. Let me put it that way. I do not feel at any point in this book that Mama Z ends up incarcerated. She is doing a spell. She is killing herself. She is killing someone else. Mama’s he is dying at home in her bed on her own terms. For sure. I think no doubt. Sure. And I think that first of all, would let her Yes. 1,000%. And I do like that it just stops and there isn’t an answer. But the way that my brain is, is I’m like, I have to know I have to create I have to create a resolution on some sorts or like five resolutions. Like there’s so many books I read. I’m like, exercise. Well, before we get out of here. Is there anything else in the book that like sticks out to you that you wanted to touch on?

Lisa Lucas 53:10
I mean, I think for me, it’s the humor. Like, for me, it’s just like, I mean, there are just so many sweatshirts, like just the humor of it is the thing. Always but first of all, that I love it the most, you know, no matter how political no matter how fantastic. It’s just the fact that it makes you laugh. And it’s just like some relief in this politicized, difficult world to be thinking about things matter. But also laughing is a real gift and treat.

Traci Thomas 53:39
Yeah, yeah, it was interesting. A lot of people didn’t know that this book was satire funny, and I got so many messages that are like, I’m laughing really hard. I feel bad. And I’m like, It’s a funny but yeah, you’re supposed to laugh. So if you were one of those people who was feeling bad about yourself for laughing No, there’s a point the jokes are there. Like don’t hold back lynching can be funny for all like that’s a personal thing is it’s so fucked. We might as well laugh.

Lisa Lucas 54:04
Exactly. Exactly.

Traci Thomas 54:07
Well Lisa, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about this book with us.

Lisa Lucas 54:12
Thank you for having me. It’s been such a total treat and I just like you know, this one is a good one. This is a great

Traci Thomas 54:17
so good. And we should say before we go your first acquisition is out when this is airing yesterday. So more world’s book sweets off plenty rhythm so go get it show. Lisa and Laura. Some love. We talked about buying books last time so go buy some books requested at your library do your thing. Lisa, thank you so much, and everyone else we will see you in the stacks. Thank you all so much for listening and thank you to Lisa Lucas for being our guest. I’d also like to thank Josie cows for making this interview possible. And now are what you all been waiting for our October book club announcement. We’re going to be reading Ferris by Meredith to loosen up Fairest is a memoir about a precocious boy with albinism from a rural Philippine village who would grow up to become a woman in America. The book is an examination of race, immigration and trans identity. Make sure to listen next week to find out who our guests will be for that October 26 the discussion. If you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you’re listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram at thestackspod_ on Twitter and check out our website thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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