Ep. 294 People Just Have Never Seen It with Ali Stroker

Written By Cherie Marquez
Ep. 294 People Just Have Never Seen It with Ali Stroker

Tony Award Winner Ali Stroker discusses her new middle grade novel Cut Loose!, co-written with Stacy Davidowitz. Ali reveals why she avoided having friends with disabilities in her youth, how she translates choreography for her wheelchair, and how her thinking around accommodations has changed over time. We also hear how she thinks about storytelling versus teaching her audience.

The Stacks Book Club selection for November is Severance by Ling Ma. We will discuss the book on November 29th with Mitchell S. Jackson.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today we welcome Ali Stroker to the podcast. Ali is a Tony Award winning actor, disability activist and author who is here to talk about her book Cut Loose!, which she co wrote with Stacey Davidowitz. This middle grade novel is the sequel and companion to their previous book a chance to fly and it follows a middle schooler who uses a wheelchair and is a total theater nerd. I love her. It’s a story about embracing your strengths, standing out and standing up for what you believe in. Today, Ali and I talk about writing a good story versus teaching kids a lesson, the lack of accessibility in the theater, and the power in saying no to certain opportunities. Remember the stacks book club pick for November is severance by Ling Ma. And we will discuss that book on Wednesday, November 29. With Mitchell s Jackson. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And now it is time for my conversation with Ali Stroker.

All right, everybody. I am so excited. Today I am joined by my friend from college who I’ve known since we were babies. Eight, you were 18 I was probably 19. So I’m a great ahead of you. She’s also a Tony Award winner. She’s also an author. She also has the voice of a fucking Angel, a goddess. I am thrilled to welcome to the show Ali Stroker. Ali, welcome to The Stacks. I’m so excited. First of all, I can’t believe that you’re a three-time published author.

Ali Stroker 2:51
I can’t either. I never thought I was gonna write a book.

Traci Thomas 2:54
But okay, so we’ll start here. The book is called Cut Loose! Tell people in about 30 seconds or so what the book’s about.

Ali Stroker 3:03
Okay, so Cut Loose! We are back with our main character, who has just moved from California to New Jersey and she starts Middle School eighth grade at a new school and they are doing the musical Footloose and she auditions and she’s really nervous about getting cast. She is a girl in a wheelchair. And she ends up getting the lead. But she gets like a lot of kind of backlash from the girls from the school. And the show gets nominated for a Timmy Award, which is like the Jimmys.

Traci Thomas 3:38
For people who don’t know what the Jimmys are, tell them because I’d never heard of the Jimmys. And I’m in the theater world a little bit.

Ali Stroker 3:43
Yeah, so sidenote, so the Jimmy’s are like a high school theater competition where your high school teacher submits your musical or your show, and judges come. And then if you are nominated, you get an opportunity to come to New York and like do a number or a solo on a Broadway stage.

Traci Thomas 4:04
And so the Timmies are for middle school, the middle school version of this.

Ali Stroker 4:08
Correct, we made this up. And so her school gets chosen and then her number gets chosen and I’m not going to give away the end. But there’s lots of things that happen. And it was such a pleasure to write the sequel.

Traci Thomas 4:23
Okay. I have so many questions about like the origins of this story and these books. This is the second book. Why did you want to write a book for middle grade kids? Why not write for adults? Why not write for high schoolers? Like why was this audience exciting to you? Because at the time of starting this, you did not have any children. You are not a middle schooler. I don’t know if you know a lot of middle schoolers but I haven’t talked to one in like 25 years. So I’m just curious like, why this grade age group for you.

Ali Stroker 4:54
So two reasons. First of all, my co author Stacy Davidowitz. She He approached me about interviewing me because she wanted to write a character who uses a wheelchair who is into theater. And I sort of pitched What if we wrote a book about that character? And she was like, what? And I was like, she was like, you would want to do that? And I was like, Yeah, I think so. I hadn’t thought it through. But she writes middle grade. So that was the first piece of it. But the second part is that I hated to read in middle school. And I never had one book with one character that I was like, I That’s me, right? Or like, I relate to that. Or like, that’s real, like, I’m having those experiences and those feelings, too. So I and I really struggled in middle school. I like needed these books I needed, I needed characters, I needed representation, and it just didn’t really exist for me.

Traci Thomas 5:50
Do you remember the first time and how old you are when you felt like you did see representation of someone like you in whatever way?

Ali Stroker 5:57
I remember, in elementary school, I was asked by this really beautiful woman who lived in I think, California to do like an exercise video with her and she was in a wheelchair. And I was like, oh, maybe like, I would be like that when I’m older. But like, seriously, Tracy, like, I never really felt like I met someone like me until I was like 21. And I moved to LA. And I met Chelsea Hill. And Chelsea is, like, runs the robots, which is like a wheelchair dance team. And they’re based in LA. And Chelsea and I became best friends. And that was the first time I was like, there I am. That’s what it was with a friend.

Traci Thomas 6:43
It wasn’t in pop culture, like in a book or a movie or TV show or on Broadway, obviously. I feel I mean, this is not where I want it to start at all. But we’re here. So I think we should talk about it. I think one of the things like, and I can speak to this, as someone who’s known you for a long time is like, You’re the first person I ever knew closely in a wheelchair. And I think because you are you regardless of if you’re in wheelchair or not, I just like was like, oh, Ali is so grounded, and like, has such a great personality. She’s such a go getter, and she’s so talented. And it didn’t really dawn on me until much later in life, that like, it would have been a challenge to not have seen yourself or like feel like I mean, you’re at NYU. And New York is a challenging city to get around in a wheelchair. And NYU is a challenging place to get our period, like emotionally and physically. So, you know, what, what does it mean for you now to be this person for other people, because I know that you’ve become, you know, I know you’re an activist, and I know that you’ve become sort of like, the girl on Broadway in a wheelchair, right, like, so what’s that? Is that great? Is that horrible?

Ali Stroker 8:01
You know, it’s not something that like I set out to do, right, of course. So when I got to NYU, I was not identifying as having a disability. I was like, I’m in a wheelchair. And there were a lot of parts of my identity that I was not that I had not wrapped my arms around yet. So I think that’s part of maybe why you felt that from me. Yeah. Because I didn’t really go there.

Traci Thomas 8:24
And that’s true for probably most kids in college is like, there’s like, I don’t think that I really identified like, strongly as being black and college. Right. Right. You know, so probably part of it’s like you want to fit in, and especially in a place like NYU, exactly. competitive.

Ali Stroker 8:40
But anyway, so yeah, you know, a year but exactly what you’re saying in that, like, when we were in college in like 2004 56789. You know, it was it was before the Hamiltons. And before, like diversity became hot. And like, cool. And so for me, I was just like crossing my fingers that I get cast that I could, like, fit in in so many ways. And I just wanted to be included, and I never talked about it in college, but I had a really hard time when I first got to NYU, because cap didn’t want me to do the dance program. Because I was in a chair.

Traci Thomas 9:25
Tap is the musical theater program at NYU, which is where Ali was.

Ali Stroker 9:33
So they didn’t want me to do the dance program. And I was like, No, I really, really want to do this. Like, let’s go slow. I like advocated for myself. But there was a lot of real eye opening moments when I first moved to New York that I was like, Oh, I’m not in my little bubble of Ridgewood, New Jersey anymore. And I think some realities started to hit but I was so clear that I wanted to do theater and that like I was He’s gonna be on Broadway one day, I didn’t know like, how, yeah, but it was never like, if it was like, I’m gonna do this, but I just don’t know how I don’t know, like, how it’s gonna work yet. And then like, I don’t know, back to your sort of main point about bringing this up is that like, I being this like kind of person that was like, that has done things for the first time, like a first it is felt really exciting, but also, I think a little bit scary because I’m like, How is this just happening now? Right? Like it just it, it kind of brought me back to like, what has been happening? And how does the world feel about somebody with a disability and like it just like, it’s, it’s sort of like shocked me in certain ways. Because I think that, again, so much of my identity of being disabled when I was younger, and in college was just like, pushed to the side. And now really wrapping my arms around it and like really loving my community and learning about the history of what’s happened to people with disabilities. In our country. It’s just been so it’s made me grow so much as a person.

Traci Thomas 11:24
Yeah, that’s really powerful. Do you so one of the questions I have about the book is sort of like, you know, our lead character, she’s in a wheelchair, but sort of like what you’re saying, you know, it’s like, that’s one part of the story. It’s one part of her identity. And obviously, it’s, it’s a big part of her identity, a big part of our story, but also like her being a musical theater nerd is equally a big part of her story and a big part of her identity. And I’m wondering how were you and Stacey your co author thinking about balancing like teaching your audience because you are dealing with like a younger audience birth versus storytelling, and like making that feel whole.

Ali Stroker 11:57
I think the way that we wanted to balance storytelling and teaching was that I wanted nats journey and her arc to be real. So anything that like had to do like specific specific stuff with like her wheelchair, I wrote. And I really wanted it to be authentic and real, because that’s what I was missing, right. And then as far as like, storytelling, like that, I think is Stacy’s expertise, because she writes middle grade, so she knows sort of how to create the arcs and create, like, when things need to happen, and what happens with relationship and characters. And that has been so cool for me too. Because like I do, I’m an actor. And so I don’t normally write books. And so I’ve learned so much about how you need to shape a specifically middle grade book, in order for it to work for young readers. So, you know, I think it was a little bit of both. But I felt super strongly about making all these little little moments like moments where she has to take the lift in the cafeteria-

Traci Thomas 13:08
I have a note of that; I literally was like, because I remember taking cabs with you in college. Like yeah, remember. And so that scene in particular was like such a moment for me reading the book.

Ali Stroker 13:21
Yeah, so those were like real, those, like were real things that happened. And some of them were a little bit more, like, emphasized for storytelling. But I also really wanted nats ableism to come out with Elliot. There’s a character in the book, who’s also in a wheelchair. And this was the case for me when I was in middle school, there was another kid in our grade who used a wheelchair, he had CP. And I remember being so scared that like, if we were together than like, I would look more disabled. And that’s like my ableism like 100%. And I didn’t understand that at the time. And I finally been able to articulate this. I think the reason why I didn’t have friends with disabilities for so long was that it was like looking in the mirror when I was with them. And there were so many parts of me that I was afraid of, and I was afraid of the world seeing and it was just like in my face if I had a friend who had a disability or was in a wheelchair. And so those little moments like that stuff is real. And I really wanted to include it and like our publishers pushed back on it. They were like, I don’t know if we should do this, like, you know, that particular like that relationship and I was like we have to do it. Because I know so many people who are disabled who have ableist views and have things that they’re super afraid of about the disabled community.

Traci Thomas 14:54
Yeah. When you got older and you started to like embrace the disabled community. How did that feel? For you to, like, start having friends who had disabilities, was it? Was it scary for you? Or did it feel right instantly? or something in between?

Ali Stroker 15:10
It was super scary. But I think what was so easy about it happening was that it was the people, right, like the people that I was friends with like, and then when I realized that we could talk about our disabilities together, it was like this huge weight was lifted off my back. And I was like, Oh, my God, I don’t have to carry this alone. Like, other people have these experiences, too. But I always felt super alone, when I was growing up that like, nobody else must feel this. And nobody else has to do these kinds of things. And so I think it was like, super freeing, but it was scary. Because there was a part of me that like, really hurt protected myself for so long. So to let down that guard, sort of like, it was sort of like going out on a date, right? Because like you’re about to be seen. And they’re seeing you in a way that you’ve been really afraid of being seen to.

Traci Thomas 16:10
Yeah, I can relate to some of what you’re saying. Like, like I mentioned before, like, I don’t feel like I really embraced being black so much until I got older. And then it’s like you get into these communities. And part of it is like this fear, because you’ve been so like judgmental of yourself and of your community. But then there’s this other part that feels so comfortable, because you’re like, I don’t have to explain this, like, Yeah, you get it, you felt that you’ve seen it, like these little things that I thought I was the only person who noticed this, like you’ve noticed this too. And I think that like, you know, I think that’s why so many people from marginalized backgrounds talk about community, like, it’s so powerful, but unless you’re raised income in community, you don’t necessarily know what that means or feels like.

Ali Stroker 17:05
Yeah, and I was. So my brother has a disability, but we were raised kind of were like, we were very rarely around disabled people. And it was before social media, right? So there wasn’t like, oh, like, I want to look up older girls that are in wheelchairs and like, see how they wear their jeans or like how they wear their heels? Like, little little things that I felt so alone and navigating, which meant a lot to me then Right? No, right.

Traci Thomas 17:36
Right. Right, of course. Okay, I wanted to ask a little bit. You mentioned this before about how you and Stacey work together. You mentioned that she’s sort of like storytelling guru, you are giving it like those really personal like specific touches. How much of her like, how did y’all put the story together? How much of it is like your brainchild? How much of it is hers? How did you actually work together? Did you get together in a room? Did you have a Google Doc? Like, can you walk us sort of through I’m always so fascinated by co authors because it’s kind of rare in books. And also, every time I’ve ever had a co author or co authors on together, their process is totally different than the other set of co authors. So I’m really curious about that.

Ali Stroker 18:19
So Stacy’s the kind of person that when I’m with her, like, my ideas start to like yes, yeah, no, yes. And so like my creativity starts to go because she’s such a theater kid. She did so much theater growing up, and it feels like somebody that I grew up doing theater with on it. And so the first time that we worked together, we met in person, this was for the chance to fly our first book first we met together, and we created an outline. And it was amazing, because we were so yes, sanding everything. Like she just says yes to me. And then it makes me like, I have great idea.

Traci Thomas 19:00
Where’s my Nobel Prize? Exactly?

Ali Stroker 19:03
Yeah, you need that. I feel like especially when you’re doing something new, which reading a book was new for me. Yeah. And then she’s so experienced in the writing process. She knew how to take all these ideas and like, create them into chapters. And I think one of the things that we talked about first, in the outline were the characters. And we had so much fun with it. And it felt a little bit like being an acting class and making up your own characters. Like, that’s what it felt like to me. Yeah. And so the first time that we wrote together, we created this outline, and then she took a chapter and I would take a chapter and then I’d send everything, you know, I’d read her stuff, obviously, but I wasn’t like a part of like, editing stuff together. She was doing all that because she knew how to create that and the dialogue. And we have like chats in our book because like the group of kids how to chat and she’s really good with all like the theater. Easter eggs.

Traci Thomas 20:04
Yeah. Oh my God, there’s so many. There’s so many like that

Ali Stroker 20:08
That is Stacy, 100%. So, which I just love. And so the second time once the chance to fly was out, we wrote an outline in one conversation. Like I remember where I was I was out on the path up in Ardsley where we were living, it was like 2020. Like, we were in the pandemic. And we had released the book, and we were like, there. It sounds like the publishers want to do a sequel. And like we wrote that outline for cut loose in like an hour. Wow, I was just like, going and Stacy was just like typing in and she was like, Yeah, I’m, what is this? And what if this and this. And then things changed as we wrote the book. But that original outline, is how I think creativity and an idea and some kind of new spark. Should feel Yeah, it was just like, so easy. Tracy, like, we were just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I was so excited. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, okay, like, I want to take on, like, certain pieces of this. But like, I know, myself, and like, my brain right now is not like, going to be doing like full chapters. And so I would take certain portions that she would send to me, she was like, work on this work on this. And that’s sort of how we did cut loose. And she was really, really helpful with the edits because I just had the baby. And so I was like a bit of a mess.

Traci Thomas 21:51
Did you notice a difference in yourself from writing with the first book versus the second book in relationship to being pregnant? Like, could you sense the difference for you?

Ali Stroker 22:02
100% Because all of a sudden, I was like, it’s this isn’t just for like any kid, this could be like for my kid. So like, I really wanted it to be good. I really wanted it to be specific. And also like, something about becoming a parent has really opened my eyes to the way that we like, are creating, like how we write the world for younger people. And like, I think that I used to really love when like things were edgy when I was growing up. Yeah. And I sort of have taken like the other side of it that like I want there to be like the magic and the soft moments in this world because I think it’s changed so much. And that I think with that young people deserve to have that while they’re young, because then they’re going to understand the realities of our world. And it’s not all rainbows and butterflies.

Traci Thomas 22:58
So funny that you say that Ali, because I also am like, very into like dark things. Like I like to read about guns and racism and wars. But when I was reading cut loose, I was just thinking like, this is so wholesome in a way that just feels really nice. And obviously, I am not the target audience like I’m an adult. And like I said, I like guns and war. But I am a theater kid at heart. And there was something about this book that like really spoke to that part of me because I do think that there’s something about the theater that is like inherently wholesome. Not necessarily in actuality, but like the nostalgia of the theater, and like the desire of being a young person in the theater, like what like the earnestness of like, we have to make a great show, you know, like the that’s like the thing, even though there’s also like, fatphobia in the theater and ableism in the theater. I’m like racism and all these awful things. But when I think about like, being young and doing shows, I feel like you guys really captured that feeling, at least at least for me, which you know-

Ali Stroker 24:07
Thank you. That was our goal. I was like, I really want these books to have that tone of when you first fell in love.

Traci Thomas 24:15
Yes. Oh my god. Yes.

Ali Stroker 24:17
And like all the like backstage drama and like, all of the even just like the specificity of the like, first like opening night gifts. Yeah, that that makes for somebody like this. Like, these are these little things that I feel like shaped. The reason why I pursued this for my life’s career. Like Like, I just felt so good when I was doing theater and the process of it and of course there were like things that came up that were like super rough said yeah, of course but you know, but like, I also found my friend It’s doing theater. And before that, I was so freaked out about having a group of friends. I was like, I’m never going to have a group of friends. I’m only going to have like one friend who hang out with me, like, and that’s how I literally felt about myself. Tracy like, I was like, who would hang out with me, I just had such low self esteem about like, somebody wouldn’t want to hang out with me because I’m in a wheelchair. Of course, I never said those things out loud. But that’s how I felt inside. And so like, the theatre world and the theatre community and the theater kids that I grew up with, like, changed my entire self worth, which is like kind of heavy to say, but it was like, my life was changed by it.

Traci Thomas 25:52
I want to talk about choreography. Because yeah, that’s a huge part of the book. And in my past life, I was a choreographer, I choreographed you in a show, which after reading the book, I was like, I probably was a monster. And so sorry. About being like, this feels like something I would say.

Ali Stroker 26:11
That was not No-

Traci Thomas 26:12
No, I don’t I don’t I don’t think that it’s me. But I was just like, oh, yeah, sure. At 20. I probably didn’t understand. Anyways, point being one of the big things that NAT has to do throughout the book is she calls it like translating the crayon. Yes, yeah. And so you know, she’s the lead in Footloose, which for those of you who don’t know, heavy dance show, big dance show, and there’s this specific number. It’s what does it we need, I need a Hero, Hero that’s on. And there’s these other girls in the show who are dancers, and they are in this number with her. And they are just like, their dream is to become Rockettes. And they’re real little bitches. Okay, that’s what they are, you know, those. That’s who the fight they are, and we hate. But I had never really heard of or thought of, like, the idea of translating choreography, that when I think back on when we work together, that’s exactly what you would do. And and so I’m wondering like, is that a, is that a phrase that is common in the theater? Is that something that is always like required of the person in the wheelchair? Have you had experiences where there have been choreographers who choreograph for you and then translate for people who are not in wheelchairs? Like, I’m just really curious about that whole process?

Ali Stroker 27:30
Yeah, so the word translation kind of came out of my experience with Deaf West.

Traci Thomas 27:38
Ok, because when you did Spring Awakening, right?

Ali Stroker 27:41
Yeah, So I made my Broadway debut in 2015, with Deaf West’s Spring Awakening, and the whole show was in American Sign Language, and spoken and sung. And for like two years of my life, we I heard the word translation every single day. And it got me thinking about the way that I think people in wheelchairs have to translate physically. And it sort of opened up this whole like system that I can think about movement. And I wish I had been given these tools when I was in college. But the truth was, because I wasn’t given anything, I was forced to figure out how to make it work. And I really wanted to take dance class. And so I would sit at the bar in ballet with everybody, and they’d be doing most of the class with their feet, right? And I just decided to begin to translate and do it with my hands. And so this word was like, Oh, I do that I do. When I kept hearing, I was like, Oh, I do that physically. And it then got me thinking about like, what is my physical vocabulary? And how do I move? And so I decided to give all the stuffed in that. I was like, she deserves to have it. And so, you know, in this show, like the, I mean, in the book in the show, like, and this is a huge part of theater is like, part of what we love about high level theater is the precision of it all. Sure. And that always made me really nervous ally, as an actor in musical theater. Is that like, am I going to stick out? Like, is it going to make the show worse? Like, is it not going to be good? And thank goodness, I’ve had really positive experiences where people talk about the movement that I do, and they’re like, Oh, my God, it made the show so cool. Like, we loved it. But in the book, NAT is not quite there yet. And so she has one of her best friends Hudson who’s a dancer, and again, she’s surrounded by able bodied people. And that is, that was my experience. And that’s why I did this is that most of the time in my career and growing up, I was the only person in the chair So, I had a choice of either like, I don’t fit, and I’m going to stay stay on the side. Or like, I’m going to try to make this work for myself. And the truth is, is that I know my physical movement better than anybody. I know how far I can push. I know. Like, I’m not necessarily a sarolea, choreographer, but I’ve watched so carefully. What, like, choreographers are looking to create pictures. And so I’m like, How do I fit into that. So like, one of the things is, like, when we are all doing a turn, like it’s more satisfying to see everybody land together than we need everybody to take off together. And I need more time to turn. So this is like another thing that I gave NAT. And I wanted this book to be about dance, because my whole life growing up, Tracy, everyone was like, Well, how do you dance? Right? You can’t dance? How do you dance? And I was like, I yea people just have never seen it. Right? Right. So that’s part of why I am especially especially for kids, like even little kids are like, Well, how do you dance? Like, how do you do that? And it’s genuine. It’s not mean, it’s just I don’t understand. Like, if you can’t get up? How? And I’m like, that is just because they only know this one physical language. Right?

Traci Thomas 31:23
Right. I mean, I think what I hear you saying is like you’re constantly pushing these boundaries of like, and these limits of what’s possible, and oftentimes very publicly, right? Like, what is not only what is possible for you, ally, but also what is possible for the theater, right? Like, that’s sort of what you’re doing is that is that exhausting for you ever to have to constantly be pushing that boundary?

Ali Stroker 31:46
No, it’s exciting to me. It’s energizing to me. Yeah, no, I, I’ve heard a lot of my friends in, in the disabled community talk about how exhausted they are. And like, I relate to like, the physical exhaustion of like, you know, physically, and also now like having the baby like, physically like, because a lot of our world is not fully accessible. And because I’m still working on creating my world and my life specifically to be even more accessible than I thought was even possible. I am tired, I am exhausted. But as far as like, spiritually and mentally, like I get, I get energized by this, like, I am excited about creating more theater that has physical movement that we’ve never seen before. Like, I get excited about working with people who have never worked with somebody in a chair. And they’re like, I want to do this, but like, I’m scared, like, that’s where I feel like I get like, like, turned on, I’m like, let’s go, like, what is possible. And that definitely comes from my childhood, because my dad was big on like, the impossible, like, nothing is impossible. Like, like, you can do anything. And that’s why like, I do this, I have this motto that I like, do when I’m like, doing speaking gigs or with kids. And it’s like turning your limitations into your opportunities. Like the thing you think is gonna hold you back is the thing that’s going to set you free. And I like genuinely, I’m not just saying this, like, I genuinely believe that and have lived by that. It’s like my chair has been an opportunity.

Traci Thomas 33:25
Yeah. I’m so I’m so happy to be talking to you. Ally. I’m like, I feel like I just like I’m so glad to see ally.

Ali Stroker 33:33
Glad to because I feel like we’ve never had this kind of conversation.

Traci Thomas 33:37
Oh, no, I mean, it almost feels like, what’s interesting for me, like just this is sort of like meta, I guess, for the audience. But like, what’s interesting for me is I’ve known you for so long. And I feel like this conversation almost feels like extremely personal in a way that I would never ask you. But it’s weird, because, like, if that feels wrong, also, you know, like, it’s like, I get to ask you these questions. But it’s for an audience, even though I know you and could text or call you anytime and be like, hey, Ally, told me about this. But there’s something about I guess, like having the space to have this conversation. But no, we’ve never talked about any any of this.

Ali Stroker 34:12
I think also what I love about this so much, Tracy is that like, when we were in college, I think that Well, I’m going to speak for myself, like we were trying to find our way. But we were like kind of doing it along. You know, we were in the same circle of friends and like we were working on shows together. And so there was like, I think always like a real respect for each other. But I don’t think that either of us were able to articulate any of it. Yeah, at the time, and I certainly wasn’t I was just trying to like figure it out. But what I love about how it feels like we were hanging out last night at your apartment is that like for us, like we’re able to pick up kind of where we left off. And I love that. NYU, for me, was about my peers and my friends, because I felt like those were the people, including you who had my back in taking risks. I didn’t feel that support from my teachers, I only felt it from my peers. So I think that’s part of why I am so excited about now being able to articulate this to you because I’m like, I was trying to figure it out. And in my view, and now like now, yes, yes, this

Traci Thomas 35:40
Oh, my God. Okay. Okay, so let’s fast forward from NYU, because I do really want to talk about this, because it’s part of the book, but it’s also like such a huge part of your story. And then you want to Tony. And so for people who don’t know, that’s like the big award for Broadway. And it’s not an easy thing to do, period. Like, it’s a huge life accomplishment. And I saw you in Oklahoma, and you were fucking fantastic. Little Aido. Me. But so, so I watched, I cried, I was so excited for you. And I was thinking about that moment, as I’m reading this book. And I’m not going to tell people what happens in the book. But I think I think you already mentioned Nat and her group, they do make it to the Timmies, which means they get to perform on a Broadway stage. And for those of you who don’t know anything about a Broadway stage, a lot of the Broadway theaters are super old, aka, in addition to being old, they’re super fucking inaccessible. Like, if you’re in the audience, the seats are small, there’s no legroom, the aisles are small. There are stairs, backstage, everywhere. Many of the stairs are incredibly dangerous. For every single person who has to take stuff on that, like I’m in Mexico, I can’t remember what show Brandon was in, I was like, I gonna break my neck. I think it was American in Paris, wherever that was. So So in the book, you do not have to deal with like navigating this theater. And it made me think about you winning a Tony, because it feels like all the odds were stacked against you. You know, as far as accessibility is concerned, like even getting you to be able to navigate a Broadway theater, these like notoriously inaccessible spaces. So I’m wondering like, I guess, both physically and also, emotionally or spiritually or whatever, what that feeling was like for you to win that award. Because, you know, thinking what you’re saying about like, impossible, and your dad saying like, nothing is impossible. It sort of feels like you did an impossible thing. So I’m just wondering, like, if it felt impossible to you if it felt like something special? Like, or, I mean, obviously, something special is the fucking Tony. But like, I don’t know, I’m just curious about all of that. It’s like 17 questions.

Ali Stroker 37:50
Yeah, no, I love it. So I worked on the two shows that I did on Broadway before, like we did runs before and it wasn’t like, like I was cast in basically like off Broadway shows for the shows transferred to Broadway. So when I got cast in those off Broadway shows, there was no like fear in my mind about like, Can I do this because I knew already like where the theater was going to be, and that it was going to be accessible. But when I found out that the shows were transferring to Broadway, the first thought in my head was, oh, gosh, like, I hope I can do it. And so what was so amazing and so encouraging, was both times Kandam port and Eva Price, who were the producers on Spring Awakening, the producer on Oklahoma, they fundraised to make money to be able to create accessibility backstage for me. And they did not put it on the theater owners. They took it upon themselves. And there was never a conversation of can we do this, it was like we’re doing this. And I can’t tell you how much that means to me. Because growing up, that was not always my experience, like people would just be like, I’m so sorry. Like, you know, we make you know, you’re not able to do this because it’s not accessible. So I’ve felt that before of like, this space is not accessible, so therefore you can’t. So that was a total thing for me when I found out that these shows were transferring, and especially with Circle in the Square, which was where Oklahoma was, I mean, it’s probably the most inaccessible theater on Broadway, because it’s in a basement right.

Traci Thomas 39:42
I was thinking there’s a stairs out front.

Ali Stroker 39:47
Yeah. And so like I had to go in on the other side of the building and then take like certain like, elevators down and then they put in a chair lift for me to be able to take down to the stage level. And then we created these ramps that looked like skateboard. ramps, like all over the backstage. And we just did it. And they were like, yes, we’re going to do this and was it perfect? No. But if I was looking for perfect accessibility, it would not have like, literally because of structure. And because of like the, you know, that these, the, this theater was so old, I would not have been able to do it. And so like, the way in which people have, in my experience of being on Broadway accommodated for me, I just was really, like I’ve been so you know, and P I can hear like, all my friends, like, I have, like, my experience of it is I’m so grateful for it. And you know, I have so many friends that are like, you don’t have to be grateful, like you deserve it. Right. Right, right. But that’s not really how I like live. That’s not really how I do my life and my world, like, people who want to accommodate for me and like, make accessibility like, I treat that as a big deal. Because it costs money. And it takes creativity. And it’s not necessarily what maybe they would have to do, right. And so like that is my, the way that I handle these situations so that I am grateful, and I am excited. And like, I do want to get, you know, press for Oklahoma in talking about that accessibility that they created backstage, because it’s a big deal. Because I don’t want to be the only person that they’re doing this for right. And I’m not going to be and I’m not you know, they’ve done it since and that’s great. But back to like, being afraid and the whole accessibility thing. Like it’s been, you know, when I did Spring Awakening, I remember like, I was still in a place in my life where I wanted to be carried and like, or I wouldn’t mind it, so people would like carry me downstairs so I can see, like, you know, at at the Spring Awakening theater, like I wanted to see the, you know, underpass. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I just wanted to be like a part of it. And that’s, that’s been the shift. Right, is that for so long? I just wanted to be a part of RE, right. The experience. And now, as I’ve gotten older, like I have made an agreement with myself that I will not perform at inaccessible spaces, because I don’t draw a line. It will never if I continue to accommodate for other people. Right? It will never change. Right? Right. So this has been like a huge shift for me. And when we knew each other in college, I was always like, yeah, just carry me we’ll make it work. Don’t worry about it. Yeah. Because I never want it to be left behind. But now there’s a bigger reason to be left behind.

Traci Thomas 43:00
Do you feel like your success has given you that? Or do you feel like that’s something that’s come just from getting older? And obviously, those two things go hand in hand? But like, do you think that if you’d never want to Tony, or you’d never been on Broadway that you would still feel like I don’t want to be left behind? Or do you think just like as you’ve gotten older, you’ve realized that?

Ali Stroker 43:21
Well, yeah, I think a big part. Well, there’s two pieces, I think that having success has made me feel like that I am in a position now to be able to say like, this is what I need. And I’m not as afraid of like not getting an opportunity, right. And also just like in my growth as a person as a human being like, and especially in my relationship and in my marriage like so we went to college with my husband, David. And when David and I got together, I remember we had these really, really intense conversations just about accessibility. And I just had this whole perspective on it. And he like was like pushing like, oh, well, what if this and like, what if you, like asked your, you know, your family to get ramps into their homes? or what have you asked, like, you know, that rehearsal be somewhere that’s totally accessible. And I remember feeling so triggered, because I had agreed, right? To accommodate for others, because I was so afraid that somebody wouldn’t want to accommodate for me. And he was sort of like, well, if they don’t want to accommodate for you, like, are they worth it? And I was like, Ah, you’re changing your brain, my brain. Yeah. But it was a huge moment because he was like, I think you deserve the world. And I was like, thank You but that’s not the way the world is. And there are parts of this that like, obviously, I still believe, like, I know that a lot of the world is not accessible for me. However, I have found that it’s been huge in my relationship, in my relationships with my family, with my friends, to ask for it. Because people really want to get on board with me. And then they want to, like, help me create accessibility everywhere, right? And so like, it’s changed my life. And so like with theatres and performing, and in my career, like, it’s just a given that, like, if they can’t accommodate for me, then they don’t get me. And that’s how I like to sort of think about it now that like, if they’re, and also if they’re not ready to accommodate for me, then they’re not ready. You know, to do it. So. Yeah, it’s been, it’s been really intense to shift that. And there’s been a lot of fear and a lot of tears to like, step into my worth, right? It hasn’t just been like, Wow, I feel good now, right?

Traci Thomas 46:08
Because there’s probably times where you say, I can’t do it unless it’s accessible. And they say like, Okay, well, then you can’t do it. And that’s probably really crushing to if it’s a thing that you want 100%.

Ali Stroker 46:18
But when they say yes, yeah. And for me to say no. In the end puts me in a powerful position. Yes, yes. But you don’t know that when you’re young. Right? Right. And it doesn’t always say yeah.

Traci Thomas 46:36
That way, in the moment, like having to say no to a thing you want, regardless of like, what the end goal is sometimes feels absolutely dreadful in the moment, because it’s a thing that you want. Yeah. Or that you feel like you should have and like for someone to be like, No, we’re not going to do that is like, well, I feel like, yeah, I can just imagine how I mean, I’m kind of imagine I felt that like, I know what that feels like to be rejected in that kind of way when you want something, but then afterwards being like, well, actually, I’m like, a little bit better off now. Or like, I’ve done something that’s like, meant mean something to me, even though in that moment. It’s like, devastating.

Ali Stroker 47:20
Yeah. And from my experience, when you do say no to something or someone, it sets you up in your life to be in another hemisphere of living your truth. Yeah, not to get too heady about this, right? Because I know that not everybody believes this. But like, when you take a step closer to you, and every part of you, then you begin to attract more and more, right? Projects, relationships work. Everything that is more like you. And I have felt that like, even over the past few years, and it’s been so hard to say no at times, and yet it has brought me so much clarity about who I am.

Traci Thomas 48:14
I love that. Okay, I’m doing like a really hardships. We always talked about this. How do you like to write? How often do you listen to music? Or know? Are you in your home? Are there snacks and beverages? Are there rituals kind of set the scene for when you’re writing?

Ali Stroker 48:29
I like to write in my car, okay.

Traci Thomas 48:33
On a computer on your phone. Piece of paper?

Ali Stroker 48:37
Depends. I do write a lot on my phone, and I dictate, okay. Because I, I my ideas come out when I’m speaking. Got it. So writing for me, like on a blank screen, I’m like, so afraid. I’m like, this is this, this feels the opposite of creative for me. I also love to write, like, speaking out loud with Stacy. And she’ll write because then she’ll add. I also, but I do I also love. Okay, that I don’t know if any writers or anybody listening to this can relate. But I feel like if I have one piece of text, whether it’s like something from the book or something else, I like need a launching point.

Traci Thomas 49:33
So if you land pasted on the screen, yeah.

Ali Stroker 49:36
And then I launch off of it. Or I’ll take a piece of it, and then I’ll add to it. But a lot of times I’m speaking out loud.

Traci Thomas 49:45
Okay, what about beverages?

Ali Stroker 49:48
I like drinking coffee because I like sort of feeling like, you know, energized and like hyper and like, I feel like especially for me speaking wise, then I can like talk faster and think faster.

Traci Thomas 50:04
Okay, what’s the word? You can never spell correctly on the first try?

Ali Stroker 50:07
Oh, gosh, I never spell exercise.

Traci Thomas 50:14
Okay. I wasn’t gonna ask you this. But now I want to know, what is your dream roll?

Ali Stroker 50:20
Hmm. I mean, this is not what people want to hear, but I want to originate a role because I want a role to exist on Broadway. That’s some that’s a character in a chair. And it’s not nessarose Where she’s to walk and act to. Sorry, spoiler alert, but like, or not that any one

Traci Thomas 50:40
The show that came out in 2004?

Ali Stroker 50:43
Yeah, no, but um, but I, but I want to originate a role. I want that to exist on Broadway or and in the canon.

Traci Thomas 50:55
Okay, for people who like cut loose, what are other books that you might recommend to them?

Ali Stroker 51:02
Ooh, that’s a fun question. Okay, well, obviously the first book The Chance to Fly.

Traci Thomas 51:09
Which is about wicked.

Ali Stroker 51:11
it’s about wicked. I read it. I’m trying to look right now. What am I what am i into? Oh, being human with Judy humans memoir. I voiced it, like did the audiobook. Yeah. And there’s, there’s a, like, big version, and then there’s like an adult version. And then there’s, like a kid’s version. Okay, so if you’re young and are not into like really long biographies, I would suggest, what did I read recently that I loved. I also am going to plug my my children’s book ally in the sea stars, which is a children’s book if you have kids in your life. It’s sweet, sweet book. I you know what I’m going to go off of like all of my like, original favorite books that I talked about. I love taste by Stanley Tucci. I love biographies.

Traci Thomas 52:10
By the way, I know you have to read Have you read this book country of the blind by Andrew Leland. Okay, you have to read it. Really. He it’s a book about disability and accessibility and accommodations and everything. He has RP so he’s slowly been going blind. So he writes a book all about blindness and like blind culture and blind community. From this place of like, I’m not blind to like, Oh, I am blind to like, Oh, these are my people. And I feel like you would really fuck with it. It’s one of the best books I read this year. But just like a lot of the things you’ve talked about today have reminded me of things that either Andrew and I spoke about or things that I read in the book. Sorry taste by Stanley Tucci.

Ali Stroker 52:51
I just cut you off. I just didn’t know Are you kidding me? I love it. I love it. And then I’m, you know, I’m, for whatever reason on a disability bit of kick. So driving foreword by Sophie Morgan, is her biography. And she is one of the people that I have not met in person but came across online and was like, she’s like me. Oh my gosh, those are the books that stick with me. Yeah, of course. I mean, I hope that doesn’t sound narcissistic.

Traci Thomas 53:18
Everybody feels about every book that they’ve ever loved is like yeah, like-

Ali Stroker 53:22
Yeah like some part of me. Yeah. Some part of me that like, that is that is that’s how I feel.

Traci Thomas 53:29
I love it. Okay, last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive, read Cut Loose. Who would you want it to be? Ali just made a face of like, oh my god!

Ali Stroker 53:40
Oh, Michelle Obama, okay. She’s who I want to have dinner with. She said, I want to read my book. Literally like one five minute phone call. Like, I want to meet Michelle Obama.

Traci Thomas 53:58
Have you never met Michelle Obama? I feel like we could make that happen.

Ali Stroker 54:02
No, I’ve never met. I’ve never met Michelle Obama. I am dying to meet Michelle Obama.

Traci Thomas 54:08
Okay, Michelle, if you’re listening. Come meet Ali. Also be shy. While you’re at it.

Ali Stroker 54:12
Yeah, we would love to meet you’re available. Yeah, we’ll take you for dinner. Yes.

Traci Thomas 54:18
Okay, everybody. This has just been so much fun for me personally, but I hope you all enjoy my conversation with the author of cut loose. Ali Stroker Tony Award winner, activist, author, Broadway star. Wonderful human. Thank you so much for being here. Ali.

Ali Stroker 54:31
Thank you so much, Traci. This was so fun.

Traci Thomas 54:35
And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right. That does it for us today. Thank you all so much for listening and thank you to Ali Stroker for being my guest. I’d also like to say thank you to Amanda Turrell for helping to make this conversation possible. Don’t forget Mitchell s Jackson will be back on the stacks to discuss our book club pick severance by Ling Ma on Wednesday, November 29th. If you love the show and you want insight access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks back. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stats wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening to Apple podcasts be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram threads and tick tock and at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter. Plus, you can check out our website the stackspodcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin MacWrite. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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