Ep. 308 Viral Justice by Ruha Benjamin — The Stacks Book Club (Uché Blackstock)

Written By Cherie Marquez

Physician and bestselling author Uché Blackstock returns to discuss the memoir-manifesto Viral Justice: How We Grow the World We Want by Ruha Benjamin. We talk about viral justice and viral injustice, and how American individualism is one of the biggest challenges to the work of abolition. We also unpack why we struggle with owning the power we have, and how viral justice can show up in our communities, from education to labor and beyond.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our March book club pick will be.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today is our February book club day. We are joined by the brilliant doctor, author and now New York Times bestseller Uche Blackstock. Uche was here earlier this month to discuss her debut book Legacy: A Black Physician Reckons with Racism in Medicine. This time, she and I are going to be talking all about Ruha Benjamin’s book, Viral Justice: How We Grow the World We Want. It’s an inspiring and thoroughly researched book on the power of everyday choices and how they add up in the direction of large scale societal change. We talk today both about virality towards justice and injustice, the curse of American individualism, and how viral justice shows up in the sectors of medicine, education, and a lot more. There are no spoilers on today’s episode. So if you have not read the book, you can still listen along. Make sure you listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. And a reminder for all of you everything Dr. Uche and I talk about today on the episode can be found in the link in the show notes. Alright now it is time for my conversation with Dr. Uche Blackstock about Viral Justice by Ruha Benjamin.

Alright everybody, it is The Stacks book club day, I am joined again by New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Uche Blackstock, author of Legacy. Uche, welcome back to the Stacks.

Uché Blackstock 2:32
Thank you so much, Traci, for having me. I’m excited to be back.

Traci Thomas 2:35
I’m excited you’re back since I last spoke to Dr. Uche, she became a New York Times bestseller. So I had to really throw that in at the beginning, because we are so pumped about that. Today, we are discussing Viral Justice: how we grow the world we want by Ruha Benjamin, for those of you who haven’t read the book, there’s not really going to be spoilers, because it’s nonfiction. But just so we’re all on the same page. This book is about sort of the micro-actions people can take to make social justice change that is impactful, and will grow in size, like a virus as the title of Viral Justice. So in the book, she talks about medicine, she talks about policing, she talks about education, and we’re gonna get to all of that stuff. But Dr. Uche, we always start here with these book club episodes. Generally, sort of what did you think of the book?

Uché Blackstock 3:23
Yeah. So I actually got a pre read of this book, because I wrote a blurb for the book. And what when I read it, you know, it was just pretty amazing, because I feel like it was like, in a really kind of dark time, you know, a lot of what she writes about is during the pandemic, and the early part of that pandemic, but just this idea to focus on like the little bright spots of how we can actually create change, left me feeling like really positive and inspired. And so that’s what I really liked the most about this book. And it’s like, I love the idea to turret description of what viral justice looks like.

Traci Thomas 3:56
Yeah, totally. I think I was sort of torn on this book. I love the idea. I generally really liked the book, and I really appreciate like Rouhani Benjamin as a thinker and as an organizer, and as a person who is in conversation with so many people whose work I love and admire. I mean, in this book, she mentioned like five or six people who have been guests of the show who are like Miriam kava, you are now Imani Perry Tressie McMillan, I was just like, Hey, friends, everyone’s here. So I really liked that. My I think my biggest like qualm with the book. Yes, is that it feels a little 101 in places and a little bit of like, I’m going to teach you about racism. And I think like knowing Ruha Benjamin’s work. I know that she’s a real serious academic. And I think maybe that was the point of this book. But it just like felt a little like, maybe it was doing too much almost like trying to cover too many bases instead of going like really deep on some things. And I think maybe because I’m not the target audience because I have read so many of the people She cites that I’m like, Okay, well, I read Dr. Chase books like, I know a lot about this. I’m like, I’ve read medical apartheid. And I’ve read all of these people. So this book is like maybe too much of an overview for me. But I did really like it. And I really do appreciate her writing and how she sort of like, tells all of these stories and puts it all together. I think that’s like, pretty difficult to do. So I think I would say like, if I was giving it a grade, I would give it like a BB plus. I think because I admire her so much. I was hoping for like, an A plus, plus, plus plus.

Uché Blackstock 5:34
Yeah, yeah, I do think that she wrote it for a broad audience. Like I think I think it’s for folks that, you know, this is like, their first time coming to this. Like, even though she is an academic, right, and usually writes for an academic audience, I noticed that her work, you know, has become, like, more serving more of a broad readership. And so I think, for the broad readership, like this book, actually, like you said, like, it is like 101, but it also has like chock full of information.

Traci Thomas 6:03
Yeah. Well, I agree like that. So that’s why I’m sort of torn because I’m like, it’s a little one on one in places. But also, like, there’s a lot of things I got out of this book, or like, pieces of information that I learned from this book that I was like, I mean, you can see here, people can’t hit it home, but like, these are all my tabs in the book, like, Yeah, same exact same, both like tabs like crazy. I finally, I usually don’t take notes in my books, but I started taking notes in my books because of this one. Like, I’m not saying that, like there’s nothing good in this book for people who have done other reading, but it just like, at times, I felt I think also maybe that it was because like the tone is so hopeful, which I know, she says is a choice, but I’m such a negative person that I was like, okay, Ruha, like we’re not gonna cure racism by like planting a garden, you know, like, I’m just such an asshole.

Uché Blackstock 6:46
No, I know. But we’re just not always hopeful. I mean, there’s sometimes like, there’s some there’s some areas of it where I’m like, okay, like you, you really are being a real you’re being a realist about Yes. And I know the parts I like the most Yeah, exactly. So I but I know what you mean. It’s I mean, I mean, the cover itself is a hopeful cover, right?

Traci Thomas 7:07
Yeah. And she says she’s hopeful. And I think like, one of the things that’s really interesting when we think about this book is that she wrote it, during the pandemic, after Black Lives Matter, summer got started in response to what she was seeing. And I think that in that moment, when I go back to that moment, and I’m sure when you go back to that moment, there was a sense of like, of hope, as a black woman that like, maybe people were gonna listen to me, or like, maybe people were gonna take my work seriously. And like, I got an influx of followers and all these people telling me like, we’re gonna do the work, and we really care. And so I think that like, that tone, shows up in the book, and there’s a line where she says, like, something’s changed in the air. And I think like, maybe an on her part, and certainly on my part, there’s some naivety like to think that things would change that quickly. And like, I think it’s just sort of like a slap in the face to read this book and be like, Why was she so Oh, like, why were we so hopeful?

Uché Blackstock 8:08
Well, it’s especially like in, you know, early 2024, where we are right now looking back and seeing like, politically what’s been happening over the especially over the last few months, like just the rollback and di measures. And just like putting that into context of this book being like, Oh, yes, you were hopeful. But you know what, people still suck. People still suck. And they really, were seeing that like in like the SCOTUS decision, and, you know, at Harvard with the president, President clouding gay.

Traci Thomas 8:38
Yeah. And like, even just like, I’m thinking in 2020, I think I’m sure she probably turned to the book, maybe starting the book around the time of the Joe Biden election in 2020. But you know, that was the whole, like, listen to black women, black women saved us again, like there was all of that energy. That is just like really gone right now. And so I think reading it now, it just felt like, Benjamin, I want, I want you, I want you to tell me the truth. And like, You’re wrapped up in it, too. But I understand how like, it’s not like she was purposefully being overly hopeful. Like, I think she genuinely believed, as a lot of us did, that maybe like, it was time for a change. And I think maybe, you know, we didn’t think about how the other side was also wanting a change. Like, well, yeah, they were gonna fight back as hard as backlash, right? Yeah. I mean, she talks about I don’t know if she actually says this word for word, but one of the notes I took was like viral justice versus viral injustice. And like, as much as we want to do, like these little things to make changes. The other side is doing these little things to make changes. They’re challenging books are challenging each book individually, like that is a viral act of viral injustice, right? And that each book ends up becoming all of a sudden now we can’t teach any black authors or like now we can’t teach any queer authors and that the virality like isn’t necessarily good or bad. It’s not a moral or a value judgment. It’s just a technique or a tactic to sort of making change.

Uché Blackstock 10:10
It’s so interesting, because, like the way that she chose to frame viral like went viral, like this viral justice, but to do it in a positive way. I initially thought that was interesting, because as a doctor, right, when I hear virus, I think bad, right? I always think that, like viruses, viruses are never good. So to reframe it in this way, but then also to say, Yeah, the other side is also doing small things that actually ended up adding up to create like, a big bad difference.

Traci Thomas 10:39
Yeah. And so she just for listeners, like if maybe you didn’t read the book, or just to kind of recap, when she’s saying viral justice, she’s talking about virality is something like that we can learn from and that it’s a model for spreading justice and joy, and that by doing these little tiny things, or small community things, that that you can inspire and invoke change in your community that could eventually like grow bigger and larger and take on, you know, become policy or whatever that looks like maybe it’s not policy, maybe it’s, it changes how things are done at your school, which then maybe gets brought to the school board, which changes how it gets done in the district, or what I don’t know how these things work. But that’s sort of the premise is that something small can spread, you know, if it has support, and that and that each person has their own plot on which they work. So, you know, my plot is this podcast, I think, yeah, like talking about this stuff on this podcast, and having experts on to explain a lot of this thinking so that it can inspire other people. And obviously, Dr. Bucha, your plot is medicine. Yeah. And so and so that’s sort of like the premise, overarching premise of the book. But on the flip side is like this idea that change is not inherently good, that there are changes that happen that are bad, or I mean, I guess it just depends on what side of the change you’re on. I think some people would say book banning is fantastic. Those people who want to book bam, I would say not so great. Not a great idea.

Uché Blackstock 12:11
Yeah, it can I just add that. When I when I think about the book and the issues that she we think about social justice, and all of the issues that she addresses that you mentioned earlier, like, you know, education, mass incarceration, health, right. I also think like, sometimes it feels so overwhelming to people to think about, like, how can you create change? And I think kind of what she’s trying to do in this book is to talk about like, what are the things you can do like on a manageable, smaller level, to feel like, like you are making a difference, because you really are in the big scheme of things. But like, here are your examples of little ways in all of these different areas that you can make a difference. And a lot of times like when I talk about, you know, health, equity advocacy, or like, how can we make a difference in terms of health care outcomes? People are like, it feels so overwhelming. And I’m like, I know, it really does. But look, look at what’s happening hyper locally or locally. And maybe things seem a little bit more manageable for you that way.

Traci Thomas 13:06
Yeah, I think that’s right like that. It’s like trying to inspire people where they’re at and not saying like, you don’t have to become a congressman to like to like make change, or you don’t have to become the director or the CEO, you can make change on your local or like communal level. Exactly. And one of the so she does outline what the three types of movement work are, she says it’s dismantling harmful systems, providing for needs, and then creating alternative structures. And my reading of that is that all three of those types of work are all places where you could make, you could make your own viral justice moment. But all three of those things are needed. Not necessarily from you individual person impacting change. But all three of those things are needed to continue to do the work of, you know, re building a world that we want to have. I think one of the things that I wished was more in this book, I wish there were more examples of what people had done and how that had impacted or like how it had become viral. You know, and I wish I wish she took like, she talks about the solitary gardens. And I was like, Oh, my God, this sounds amazing. And I also love in the book, how she outlines so many organizations, right? She named someone organizations and lifts them up, and there were some and like, you can go and google them and find them and be like, Oh, maybe I can, you know, start like maybe I can join in this moment. But I wished that she explained like, what happens for the people who are incarcerated who are engaged with the solitary gardens and how that work has changed maybe their lives. Does it change recidivism? Does it not like does it change policy within prison? Does it not? Does it change something about the invite? Like I just wanted to know more of what kinds of impact these little things could have because I think that would have inspired me more.

Uché Blackstock 14:54
Yeah, I think like it felt more like this was a snapshot like a snapshot in time. Time this, these are the little things that people did. But there was not much like follow up in terms of you’re saying like, what was the what was the impact? Or like, how was it? How was it viral?

Traci Thomas 15:10
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But when she does give us those moments, I’m like, oh my god, I love this. I could like read a whole book of just like you list like an each essay is just you telling me what these people did and how it changed things. I mean, I’m curious to hear what you think. Because you’re a doctor, and you were, you know, you’re an ER doctor. So you were really like on the frontlines of COVID? Did you get the sense, like in 2020, and 2021, and I guess, even up through now, that COVID was different, as far as its impact on how people interacted with each other, or like thought about each other? And has that changed over time?

Uché Blackstock 15:49
Like, do you mean, just in terms of socializing?

Traci Thomas 15:52
I think I mean, like, I guess, in my mind, COVID, you know, held up this, like magnifying glass of all the things that were wrong, but I also think that I sort of took stock of what it meant to be in community with people and in the world. And I’m curious if you felt that from just your, your patients and people around you.

Uché Blackstock 16:14
I mean, I think like, it’s like this, again, this idea of a virus like it’s, you know, it’s it’s something that is infectious that can be passed on from one person to another. So then this idea of like, what you do as an individual, and matters, and it has impact on other people, and it can actually have a ripple effect. So that’s why like, this idea of like, community care, I feel like came up a lot, especially with regards to communities of color, because we knew, like, we were more likely to be working in positions where we were, you know, we were exposed to the public, we’re most likely to be in multi generational housing. And so it really didn’t matter, like how we behaved in terms of like, you know, wearing masks or like getting vaccinated all of that. So yeah, I do feel like those conversations came up. And she talks about, like, you know, a lot of the mutual aid that happened in the pandemic. And that’s, I mean, to be honest with you, that’s how, because I was very much an academic silo. That’s how I learned about mutual aid organizations, like why people are bringing food to elderly people, so they don’t have to go out to get it, right. So they don’t expose themselves. So I found about these, like, little ways that we can help each other and be in community with each other. And even though so I’ve been a doctor since 2005. I had not in my like career ever had a moment like that, where we actually were thinking about how we behave in community to other people.

Traci Thomas 17:35
Do you feel like people are still on that I still have that energy now or do you-

Uché Blackstock 17:41
Because I feel like especially in the United States, like we’re such an individualistic society, and one that is, like, propped up on this idea of personal responsibility that people are like, okay, as soon as things like seem like they’re okay, like, okay, all right back to and also be a human nature. It’s like back to, you know, how I was like living before this, like, this disgusting bug came came around.

Traci Thomas 18:04
I think, like, just hearing what you’re saying, I think, for me, and I have been talking about my abolitionist journey, and like doing a lot of reading around that and thinking a lot about it. And I think for me, the hardest part is that I am an American. I was born in America, I was raised by people who are born in America, my family has been in this country on my dad’s side, I think, you know, since slavery, my mom’s side since the early 1900s. Like, I have a lot of like American energy. And I think what’s the hardest part about abolition work is that it takes a community minded approach to everything. And I can be extremely selfish, and I can be extremely individual. And I think like reading this book, I think that’s part of where my frustration came was, I’m like, This is too fucking hopeful. This isn’t going to work. Like we’re horrible people, we need to be told we’re horrible. And like, I just COVID was definitely a magnifying glass for so much. That’s wrong. But I think like, in this book, this interconnectedness that she talks about the Siamese crocodile, the one stomach that fights over the food, like that is so me, and it’s so hard for me to think outside of that. And I think that was one of the things that I took from this book where I was like, Okay, maybe you’re being harsh, because you’re not where you maybe you’re not where you think you are in your head, you’re not actually there like in your heart, like you haven’t actually come to like the community work yet. So that was a bit of a wake up call for me.

Uché Blackstock 19:34
I mean, I think of course, because like we absorb all this cultural messaging around us. That is like anti-abolitionist right all the time. Like that’s what we grew up with, from the media from our families, you absorb it all in but like I remember, and I right about this, like in March of 2020, I was working in urgent care. And even though it wasn’t the ER we were still seeing so many patients with COVID. So I started writing about what I was seeing that I was worried that communities of color would be disproportionately impacted. And so I remember I was interviewed about it, and they’re like, What do you think like, what’s what’s going to be the cost of this pandemic? And you know, it’s like lives but also humanity, because I knew, I knew just like how we saw like white new yorkers literally, like fleeing York City, when, like, in April in May of 2020, like, people who had money and people were of means were like, I’m out. Right? Like, I don’t care about all the other folks who have to stay here. So like, you know, that is just like who we are fundamentally as America or as America says US, US Ians USC and USC ends.

Traci Thomas 20:42
Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard, because it’s like, I want to be a good person and community with others. But I’m also like, I don’t want to die of COVID. You know, like, I understand that impulse, not that anyone wants to die of COVID. Right. But just like, it’s really hard. When I think I think what this book does really well is remind the reader, that we have an obligation to be in community with each other, if we want change. And that that sometimes means like doing a thing, that is not necessarily personally the best possible thing for you and you alone. And that is very, very, very hard to wrap my personal brain around. But I think it’s probably hard for a lot of people. Which, which sort of bring this is the chapter I’m really interested in talking about, obviously, want to talk about the medicine chapter with you. But the lies chapter, which is about education. Because I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast are educators, whether they’re librarians or teachers, or, you know, I know we have preschool teachers, we have high school teachers, we have academics, we have, you know, a lot of people who are in the education sector. And one of the things that made me feel rage in reading this book, and thinking about like, allies and education is how schools can be teaching anti racism, they can be in Liberal pockets, they can have, you know, the best of the best, whatever. But they’re still criminalizing black and brown children at a higher rate, that they’re still even in the spaces that think that they are, you know, I don’t want to say woke because that’s so pejorative now. But think that they are so impressive is that they think that they’re progressive teachers whose classrooms they think that they’re progressive, they think it’s a diverse space, they think they’re doing all the right things. And then you get this quote in the book that says, for every 20, black girls in school, too, will be suspended compared with one out of every 167 white female students. And this is going unchecked in these spaces. Like to me that is that individualistic, where it’s like every teacher is like, Oh, well, I assigned Toni Morrison. So I’m doing it right. I believe that black art matters. And it’s like, Baby, you just sent the two black girls to be suspended. And not the 167. White girls, right? I actually had to post it on that page to read that quote.

Uché Blackstock 23:25
But that’s why like, a lot of times and this pertains to every social institution, education, health care, no criminal legal system, but like really thinking about what happens like at an ideological level intraparticle the fourth, like the four eyes of repression, I don’t know if you’ve heard of this, like no, say it’s so ideological, inter interpersonal, institutional, and oh, and internalized. So they’re the weights, all the levels at which oppressions work that oppressive systems work. And so a lot of times, I think, you know, maybe educators, they think about these systemic, they think about it in a very lofty way, what racism looks like, right, like these covert policies, as opposed to also what happens on an interpersonal level, like how their interests so who cares if you are, you know, you have the anti racist curriculum, but if you’re making these decisions that are like anti black with regards to your pain, or patients with regards to your students, right, like, you know, sending them to detention or, you know, yeah, just like kicking them out of school, and not recognizing your how your anti blackness plays out. interpersonally then you weren’t like, it doesn’t matter if you’re thinking systemically or institutionally, right. If interpersonally if you’re perpetuating what’s happening institutionally, and people don’t recognize that they’re like, oh, no, I am. Like, I’m so progressive, because this is what I’m doing in my classroom, but then you’re also doing this other piece too. Right?

Traci Thomas 24:51
Right. And that also like that, working on yourself, because I think a lot of people I hear that like I’m reading the books or like I’m I joined a group or I, you know, go to the speaker series or whatever that I’m working on myself. So therefore I’m doing the work, when in actuality, that’s the very, very start of the work. And the real work is How are you engaging in these spaces? When you are the person with the power? Right? It’s not about what you do when you are the person who is on the receiving end of the power. If you’re a teacher in a classroom at a public school, and the superintendent or the district tells you something, you are not the person with power. So how you react in that moment is not the question. The question is, how do you then turn that around on your students or their parents? Or whatever that looks like?

Uché Blackstock 25:37
Yeah, exactly. And so there’s one thing I talk about a lot in the talks I give about these equity choice points, like these points, these areas that, you know, these instances where we all regardless of what role we have, if we’re a teacher, we can either like make a decision that goes with the status quo, or we can make a decision that’s more equitable, right? And that we’re thinking about, like, what’s going to happen to my student, if I’m, if I’m going to put them in detention? Or I’m going to suspend them, right, like really to step back and say, Okay, this is like something I’ve been, I’ve been making these decisions about these students, but I need to do it differently. So that there’s an equity choice point that we all we all have opportunities, what you know, in power is relative, but we all have power within whatever role we have, especially teachers. Yeah, so I challenge teachers like our educators, rather, you know, to think about what are the opportunities where they can really engage with these equity choice points, and like, whether it’s what you decide to read or decision you make about about a student?

Traci Thomas 26:33
Yeah. And I think it’s hard. Again, maybe this is just me, but my, my feeling is, it’s hard sometimes to be in power, when you are sort of in the middle, right? Like where you’re like middle management, or you’re a teacher, it’s like you have if you’re a teacher, you have power over your classroom, but you don’t have complete and total power over your classroom, because there’s people above you, but I think sometimes it’s hard to own the power that we do have. And I think this book is really an invitation for that. Right? It’s she’s really telling us, Look, this is your plot, your plot is your classroom, there might be constraints about what exactly like you might be in Texas, or Florida, where your governors are telling you, you can’t teach that or you can’t talk about that. And I don’t want anybody to go to jail, or whatever, over something like that. But there is power that you do have in your classroom, you get to decide what punishment looks like, or what rewards look like those are interesting quotes. You get to decide what as you’re saying, what is equitable, you get to decide these things. And that we, when we do have these moments of power, we absolutely must take ownership of that and treat it with respect, and be gentle with our power and be like forgiving and generous with our power and not become the dictators of our classrooms or our schools. Exactly. Or our patient rooms or our podcast or whatever, whatever you apply it.

Uché Blackstock 27:54
Yeah, yeah, these are the things I think about all the time, because I have two little black boys, they’re seven and nine years old. In elementary school, they go to a majority black school was the teachers are black, but like, I was very intentional about that, because I was I was worried about how they I’m still worried I still get worried about how they’re going to be treated, you know, differently, you know, punished more, and we have the statistics that back that up, other than their white peers, like a real thing.

Traci Thomas 28:20
Well, I’m currently going through a situation with my kids white school, and I am they’re in preschool and it’s not great. And I will be making some changes for their elementary school. Because it’s not okay. And my kids are you know, if you know, they’re they’re mixed and they’re very light and like they don’t present necessarily if you don’t know that they’re black, but I’m so hypersensitive to it. Yeah, I’m so aware of it. And honestly, quite frankly, even if the teachers don’t think of them as black no kid deserves to be treated that way regardless, you know, so it’s definitely like a challenge education is really a challenge and and she talks about in the book like ally ship, and I love what she says about ally ship because she basically shits on it. She basically says that let me let me find this quote because i i I’ve always felt icky about it like I never like when people tell me they’re an ally and I never like to kill myself and yeah, here’s what she says. She says the language of ally ship doesn’t make any sense. As it implies dominant groups are doing something for oppressed ones but don’t need saving themselves. Which is like such an LOI like I literally it was like oh, there it is. Yeah, because there because it’s still implies that the dominant group is trying to dominate in some way like that they’re still flexing their power by saying you’re an ally and implies like you’re still better than the other the group that you’re an ally to or like that your other than them instead of like in the trenches fighting for the thing, because we’re all connected.

Uché Blackstock 29:53
I know I actually. I actually like this term, even though people don’t like it. accomplice and Because because it already like says like the system is already broken, the system is already sick. And like we’re working together to like support the system. You know what I mean? We’re like, oh, accomplished sounds like a Cisco negative, but I feel like allies just sounds too. And I’m actually I’m much more of like a positive, optimistic person that I think you are. But But allyship I’d like when I see someone has like a BLM ally in there. Like in their Twitter handle, I’m like, You better stay away from me. Because I do not trust you. Because you should. That’s not something you should have to announce. At work. Just do the work.

Traci Thomas 30:37
Exactly. I agree. The word allyship. I’ve always disliked it. I think because when I first came to it was years ago, in college, I was a theater major. And so I had a lot of queer friends like a lot, because that’s sort of like a safe space for a lot of queer people. And, you know, we used to say a term that was really inappropriate for women who had a lot of gay men friends, and then it shifted to like other terms that were stupid. And then ally sort of became a thing that people were really into long before I heard it used in a racial space. I don’t know if that’s actually true. But that’s just how I came to it. And I always felt like, it seems silly. I was like, Why do I have to tell you that I think gay people are great. Like, they’re all my friends. Like, this is my community, I shouldn’t have to announce that I shouldn’t have to separate myself from that. Obviously, my experiences are different, because I am heterosexual. But like, that doesn’t matter. That’s not relevant to me thinking that they should like, have rights. And like that’s not relevant to me wanting to go and like go to the Pride Parade. Why should I have to announce that? Why can I just be amongst the people that are my community period. And so I’ve always felt weird about like, the performance of ally ship and the way that she writes about it in the book. I was like, Thank you, because she really put words to what has felt so icky.

Uché Blackstock 31:53
Yeah. And I think also, like the time when she was writing about this, like in 2020, like we saw a lot of that performative allyship. Like from individuals and from organizations. And like, in retrospect, looking back, you’re like, okay, that, truly we thought it was performative at the time, and it really was, right.

Traci Thomas 32:09
And like, we see it every year, on MLK Day when the FBI is like, love you, Martin Luther King, bestie, hi, boo, I have a dream. And it’s like, maybe this, anybody can be an ally, if the FBI can be an ally to Martin Luther King in the year 2024. Like, so it means it means nothing, you know, she has this line about how she talks about this is tied into this ally ship thing about how racism is productive. And I think like, that’s why people want to identify as an ally, because they want to feel like they’re doing something. But she says, until we reckon with the fact that racism is productive, will continue to be caught off guard by its persistence and re issuance, productive, not in the sense of being good, but in the literal sense of being able to produce things of value to some, even as it wreaks havoc on others. These productions include everything from segregated neighborhoods in which white assets appreciate and black assets depreciate to the carceral system that preys on black communities, while providing employment, lucrative contracts and cheap labor, especially for rural America. She goes on to say a lot more. But I think that that sort of part of it is like, racism as an ecosystem, which means if you’re not being racist, against or you’re not the top, top top that’s making all the money, you have to find your place in it. And a lot of people choose to be like an ally, which is sort of like a lukewarm position in the thing. Yeah. I want to talk about medicine. We’ve got a doctor, we’ve got it. Not only do we have a doctor, we have a formerly dei doctor. So I want to start in the first first chapter in weather where she talks about weathering, which is all about like, how black what’s the woman’s name, Geronimo. Definitely into randomness or lean to randomness. She’s like the researcher behind this idea of weathering. She has a book that just came out, I think last year called was pretty fantastic. It’ll make your stomach hurt. Because because of how, how bad like, it’s good. It just is like, but what she talks about in this chapter is data as a barrier to actually helping that it’s a tool that ends up funding more research, but not a tool that ends up getting things done. And that was a real circle, flag, draw on the page scream into the void moment, because we have all of this research, but what has it gotten us and I want to know what you think about that? Because I know as an academic as a doctor, you guys need a lot of research, but also, is it fixing things?

Uché Blackstock 34:53
Yeah. And it’s especially frustrating when it comes to racial health inequities, because we literally have like 3040 years of research that show that there are these differences and the differences are worsening. And so I would love and what happens in these academic silos is everyone’s like talking to each other about this, but no one’s but that no one, there’s just like a very little action. And so that’s why like, I think it’s just so important for us to like, get out of these silos and talk to like a broad audience, talk to policymakers about like, what do we think are things that can make a difference. So like the omnibus bill, which is like been trying to be pushed through Congress to prevent, like the high black maternal mortality rates, like, that’s something that actually, it’s an intervention that can make a difference. If we had more like policies like that, well, that has to get approved, it hasn’t gotten approved yet. Representative Lauren Underwood from Connecticut, she’s still trying to push that through. But there are a lot of folks, especially in this anti di environment that don’t want to push that through. But yeah, it’s super frustrating to have all of this research about that documents, the disparities, but doesn’t really document the interventions and what works and what doesn’t work.

Traci Thomas 36:03
What can people do, like what can a doctor do if they have the information, but they don’t? Like? Is there viral justice moments that can be done like, by individual doctors are like, What? What do we know?

Uché Blackstock 36:16
Absolutely. Like, I think, you know, you’re married to a doctor. So you kind of know that sometimes, like, what happens in the process of becoming a doctor, you totally like, lose that your three dimensional self, when you were like doing a lot of community work, you’re doing like a lot of really great things before medical school, but then you got super busy, but I think like doctors need to be their patients advocates, like who is like the number one advocate for a patient, it should be the doctor. So like, literally, there are a lot of like patient advocacy groups out there. There’s stuff happening hyper locally and locally in communities that I feel like even like food sovereignty or like housing, housing insecure, like insecurity, like there are groups that deal with those like, as doctors, we really should be involved in those, like local grassroots movements, like there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be like, it’s not about what’s just happening, like in the exam room at a clinic room, we need to think more holistically about how we care about patients.

Traci Thomas 37:10
Yeah, I always think about so a few years ago, in California, marijuana got legalized. And my husband, as you know, is an OBGYN. And something that came up was that if women tested positive for marijuana, it used to be something that like, automatically went in there file and then Child Protective Services, because it’s drug use, etc, etc. And then the law got passed, and individual doctors were sort of left to make that call, which I was very upset about, obviously, because it felt like a not good thing to leave up to individual doctors. And it felt like a very dangerous thing for women and their newborn babies. And I feel like people who are not necessarily very closely tied to the medical system who just like go to the doctor’s for their checkup, or whatever, don’t understand how much power doctors have on something as small as that in a state where it’s legal.

Uché Blackstock 38:13
Right? Well, I mean, Dorothy Roberts, right about writes about this, like how the health care system also it’s like an extension of the carceral system. And so that’s how like, physicians can be complicit. Right police officer Right, exactly. And so like there was even a study that came out I think, was like two years ago that showed that black black birthing people are much more likely to be drug tested than white birthing people even though when you look at the results, white birding people are more likely to test positive for for drugs in their in their screen. But again, like we actually need for physicians in that position where they’re getting a positive drug screen, they need to be surveilled themselves, they need to be surveilled. But they also need like some sort of support and context for what do you do with that? Right, right. Like there needs to be some oversight where individual health care providers are not making decisions that could totally derail someone’s life, take their child away from them, they end up in prison. Right. Like literally, it has like, repercussions that I think that help professional privacy to think about.

Traci Thomas 39:14
Yeah, yeah. The there’s a statistic in the book about how racism is the risk factor for black burning people and not race. And that African born burning people and white USA born burden people have the same maternal mortality risk. And that black Americans, just one degree like it doesn’t it doesn’t mean if you have a black parent who was born or an African parent who was born and then you were born in the US once you were born in the US, it’s done for you. But if you come in from outside or your white USA born woman or birthing person, you like that’s crazy to me.

Uché Blackstock 39:58
I know and that’s why like you You know, when I talk about like racism versus race, I think it’s really important that we don’t like conflate the two terms. Because like, for a long time, like in that school, I was learning that, like race itself is a risk factor for certain diseases. So I actually thought that meant, okay, there’s something like biologically wrong with black, right, like sick like sickle cell. Right, exactly. But really what it was, it’s how racism you know, exerts its like horrible force and, you know, powers on our bodies, like it’s racism, the practices and policies that makes us sick. And I think that’s that, that you use is such a powerful stat to say, like, when African immigrants come to this country like they’re doing, they’re doing as well as, as white folks giving birth. But after one generation, literally, they their their complications worsen, and the outcomes worsen, and they’re doing as poorly as black Americans. But I think that’s like that. That’s the example that you need that shows like, there’s nothing wrong with black folks, inherently, there’s something very wrong with the environment that we live in that like it’s compromising our health.

Traci Thomas 41:03
Yeah, I mean, the I had my first time having like, my a-ha moment around racism was race was around blood pressure. You think it was in a Harriet Washington book, she talked about how black people in Africa do not have high blood pressure. Oh, and I thought my whole life I know, it was like, if you’re black, you just got it. I just got a you know, I was like, 20, being like, I’m worried about I was a dancer, I taught fitness, like I have great blood pressure. But I was like, I am worried about my blood pressure at 20 years old. Every time I go to the doctor and get my blood pressure, I always my blood pressure goes up, because I’m stressed out that I’m going to be like, and I learned that this wasn’t even fucking real. I mean, it’s real. But it wasn’t real because of who what is inside of it’s not real because of what is inside my body. It’s real because of what is outside my body. And that was so upsetting. And also so illuminating, and powerful for me to know that information and then seeing it again here. With with this African born versus USA, USA born like that same statistic. It’s just you can’t argue with that. Right? Like you can’t could argue other things. But that’s like, Hey, we’re all black. Why are we dying?

Uché Blackstock 42:16
Right? But people will try to argue that.

Traci Thomas 42:18
I’m sure they will. I’m sure. I mean, racism will try to on Twitter, dog. Listen, I put on Threads the other day, that it’s not okay for book podcasters not to read their authors’ books. And people were fighting with me about it. I’m like wait what? Authors!

Uché Blackstock 42:34
People were trying to rationalize it. I was like, oooh!

Traci Thomas 42:37
I’m like, you’ll fight with me about anything. My friend Cree was like you should just put up water is good for hydration and see what people say I was like, no, because people will be like, Gatorade is good for hydration. Water is not the only thing you could drink for hydration. Who needs to be hydrated. But yeah, that the blood pressure thing. And now this one, it’s just like, I feel like sometimes I need the reminder that there’s nothing wrong with us, because I know there’s nothing. But sometimes you feel like maybe we’re doing something wrong. Like maybe maybe it’s us and like, it’s I know it’s not, but it doesn’t always feel like that. Because it’s like, well, then how can we keep dying?

Uché Blackstock 43:14
I know. Yeah. And that’s why like, you know, I try to use my platform just to educate even I mean, just like regular folks about this, because I want people to know, like, it’s not you. It’s the system. It’s the environment that we live in. And it’s working as designed.

Traci Thomas 43:28
Yeah. And I think the other part of it is like, and you mentioned this in your book. I think as black people, there is shame around being a statistic or like being part being racism against like, there is a shame. And like that, we want to explain that away. And as I was reading this book, you know, I had twins, I had a C section. And I was like, Oh, I’m not a statistic, though. Because I had high risk. I had a high risk pregnancy, like they were twins, and I did have high blood pressure and like all this stuff. And like, I think in my case, it’s extremely, I think I got extremely good health care, because my husband is a physician on in the department of which I you know, like, so I don’t think that I I always felt extra safe. Yeah, in that situation, because, you know, whatever. But I still had the impulse to be like, Well, my C section was was like, I needed a C section. And I think like, I don’t know where that comes from, I guess I do know where I just, it’s hard to grapple with that. I think as a person who believes that racism is real, but also doesn’t want to feel like I’m just part of this horrible system. Does that make sense?

Uché Blackstock 44:37
Yeah, that’s the whole like, one of the eyes the internalized I ever oppression. Yeah, that’s like that. That’s the internalized work, right? Like this, like cultural messaging that we get and that we have to, like, actively work against and we’re like, No, we don’t want to be a statistic. You know, but it’s hard to think otherwise sometimes.

Traci Thomas 44:52
Right? But I guess maybe there’s also like some pride in being a statistic because it’s like maybe my being a statistic will help change the thing.

Uché Blackstock 45:00
I don’t know. Ideally, we don’t want you to be a statistic.

Traci Thomas 45:02
No, we don’t want to. You’re right. You’re right. I was trying to I was trying to be positive. It doesn’t work on me. Yeah, positive is not for me. But I do want to talk about vaccine hesitancy because she talks a lot about how it sort of pathologized as black people, you talk about it too, in your book, and how it’s always on like, Well, why don’t black people want to get vaccinated? And like, yeah, we understand bad things happen to black people, but like, Don’t they know that this is good for them? Or whatever. So I’d love to hear kind of your thoughts.

Uché Blackstock 45:28
Yeah, I mean, you know, what, like, I was very understanding of black folks who are like, I don’t want to get vaccinated. And I recognize that, like, people needed multiple conversations before they made a decision, because it’s like, how can you have like, centuries or decades of like mistrust or like, no connection between healthcare environments, and your community? And then all of a sudden, people are like, Okay, you need to get this thing done. And this thing was developed super quickly. And yeah, it works, and just go get it done. And so I was just like, really, like, I get it. I understand people’s concerns, like, if I can, I’m here to answer your questions. If you want to wait a little bit and think about it, sure. But you know, there is it is time sensitive. But yes, we have this like horrific history where we have been experimented on exploited, where when you go seek care that you often that listen to you where you’re ignored. So I understand like, how, in this moment, you’re like, I don’t know if I want to get this vaccine. And I talked about the story with my barber who’s like, literally, who cheat like, you’re the only doctor, I know, I don’t have health insurance. I see you on TV in the barber shop. And then like a year later, after the vaccine rollout, can I talk to you about getting the vaccine, we talked for an hour, and then he got vaccinated? Right. And so I always feel like I wish everyone had a doctor Ha, black. So it’s not like there’s anything special about me, but just not just an accessible doctor. Exactly. It’s a trust that they trust that they trust. And that was so clear, when the pandemic started that there were so many people that didn’t have a health professional that they trusted.

Traci Thomas 47:01
Yeah. And I think, you know, in the book, she brings up the point that like, it’s not on black people to trust the medical system, it’s on the medical system to make us trust that right like that. You guys have been fucking up for centuries. And now all of a sudden, oh, I owe you this thing like right sterilized, Fannie Lou Hamer, you practice gynecology on enslaved women without anesthetic that you had, like, right, right. You did. So you know, obviously, tusky like, there’s so many examples. So mana locks, like you wrote about it in the book, there’s a whole book called medical apartheid go read that like, killing the black body will tell you more like there’s just so many places that black people have been screwed over by the medical system that this disingenuous argument of like, why don’t black people trust vaccines? Right, like, well, so gaslight.

Uché Blackstock 47:52
Right, exactly. And that’s the whole thing about like, I mean, that’s so it’s so American, right? Like to put it like a personal responsibility to say, oh, it’s because individual, individual mistrust. And instead of what rule talks about this interest, institutional, trustworthiness that we that institutions have not proven themselves, trustworthy, ever. So you know, it’s really the institution’s fault and not the individual person’s fault.

Traci Thomas 48:16
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we’re like running out of time, of course. And there’s so much in this book, there’s a chapter called hunted. That’s about like mass incarceration, but the part of it, we’ve done a lot on mass incarceration on this show, so I’m gonna kind of skip over that part. But we have episodes with Derek Brunel. Maryam Kaba, we did a whole episode on a book called prison by any other name, that’s all about like other you know, so like, there’s stuff, there’s resources there that cover a lot of what’s covered in this section. But the part that I was really shaken by that has always been very upsetting to me is this sort of communal effort to punish and surveil our own communities and neighbors, we sort of got it this a little bit with the education definitely with the doctors, but like the citizen apps nest camera next door, and that white women are sort of at the forefront of this kind of work. I think that white men are doing some times way more violent, way more covert way more, quote, unquote, legitimate versions of this because they are more in these powerful positions or whatever. But I do think that it’s really interesting that white women have sort of become the protectors of the home front, if you will, and are all up on these apps and all up in this like tattletaling on on the neighbors and I don’t know I don’t I don’t have anything smart to say about it, but it definitely was something that I was circling but ya know.

Uché Blackstock 49:40
I mean, I love like the work was done with like, you know, AI and technology and how technology actually can be used for bad and how it can actually worsen situations for black folks. And that’s such a great example of of how these apps are used and still use like, I feel like my neighbors You know, are on these apps and then posting to our listserv shooting that happened at, you know, two in the morning. And this is what the suspect look like. It’s just like, Okay, if this is this is too much, but again, it’s like these apps are like, perpetuating the like white anxiety that people already have.

Traci Thomas 50:19
Right. And like, they’re doing all this work of like, this is what the person looked like, it’s like, you’re already paying the police plenty of money to do that job, you don’t need to do the job for them. Like you don’t need to, they’re not outsourcing to you, unless they’re giving you a cut, there’s no reason for you to be policing your neighbors.

Uché Blackstock 50:35
And it’s just I know, I know, I even had like a neighbor say, Oh, I saw someone use one of the parking spaces in our parking lot. Who doesn’t live here to run to the supermarket, like a ticket to get groceries? That? And I said, Yeah, I said, What? So the person seemed to be limping, or, you know, be an older person. I’m like, wait, sweet. So we are surveilling people that are using our parking spaces because they can’t get to a closer, closer spot to the supermarket. Right?

Traci Thomas 51:05
Right. And like, so what do you want to have happen to that person? Yeah, like? That’s the real question. Right? All of this. So okay, so you found out somebody did a bad thing, they parked in a spot that wasn’t theirs to go to the store? What is what is what is it that you want? Now? Do you want me to go track them down and beat them up? Do you want me to have them arrested and sent to prison? Like, do you want me to make them move there, go to the grocery store, find them move their car, and then like, just want to ruin their day like so while so why I think like, we’re so obsessed with punishment, and criminalization and and surveilling each other. And being in each other’s business is it’s just like, IQ, it’s so icky. And it’s getting it’s gotten out of control. And it’s only getting worse, like, I know, the monitoring of every single thing. And the tattletaling, like, I’m just like,

Uché Blackstock 51:59
Right, unfortunately, technology is not a panacea. And it’s probably it’s gonna make these kind of interactions worse and amplify them.

Traci Thomas 52:07
Yeah, yeah. And then the last thing we didn’t really talk about, and I’m not really an expert here, and I think that I have, the place that I have the most to learn was like the grind chapter about sort of like labor and union stuff, because I don’t really understand that I think I that’s probably where I need to focus, like my next line of great books. What? So you’re so smart. Well, I just I don’t I don’t get it. I’m like, I’ve never really I’m in a union. Now. I’m in Sag AFTRA for the first time because of a thing that I did. But I am not really like I, I support unions. I’m excited about unions, but I don’t really understand the workings of them. Because mostly, I’ve just been sort of a freelance person my whole life. But I think like, and this is probably my fault, too. Like, we’re not talking enough about workplaces as spaces for abolition, like that. We’re not thinking about them outside of outside of workplaces that are like doctors offices or education, where, where there’s a direct line, but like, who’s hustling who’s making the money, how are they making the money? How are they being treated? And there’s that story in the book about the CEO who’s like, Okay, I’ll make $70,000. And everyone laughed in his face. And now it’s like,

Uché Blackstock 53:17
They make billions of dollars, actually, actually was a positive thing for the company as a whole.

Traci Thomas 53:23
Right? Yeah, yeah. And like that scarcity, as a company, ethos is like, not ideal.

Uché Blackstock 53:29
For me actually, just doing the health advocacy work, I became more in tune with what’s happening in workplaces, because there were so many low income, low wage workers that were being exposed to the virus and not having employer sponsored health care, not having family paid and sick leave and thinking about like, how can we make workplaces safer for the workers that really put their lives on the line? And so for me, it was like a pandemic that kind of got me more attuned to what is happening in in workplaces, and how can we keep workers safe?

Traci Thomas 54:00
Yeah, and then also, like the gig economy part of it, too. Oh, that I mean, I found this chapter probably to be one of my favorites, because I think I knew the least about it. But I also feel like I have the least to say about it, because I you know, it’s like sort of trick I’m still I gotta go next. Yeah. I want to end with this quote from Miriam Kaba that about what needs to be done. Of course, Miriam Kava is like one of my personal heroes thing they need to and human and she’s, she’s amazing. Amazing. If you haven’t listened to her episodes on the stacks, they’re some of my favorites because I’m obsessed with her. But she’s also funny. I thought, I didn’t know I thought she was gonna be serious, though. She’s a great time.

Uché Blackstock 54:42
I’m not surprised because I follow her Twitter X feed and she makes me laugh all the time.

Traci Thomas 54:47
All the time. So funny, so smart. Just a dream. Okay, I’ll leave a link of everything we talked about including that in the show notes. But here is what she says about kind of like what needs to be done. I’m actually only super bored with the concept of performativity. I think about sites of struggle as just constant learning, being super curious, come with what you know, be willing to learn and be willing to be transformed in the service of the work. And I just think like, that’s really it. Yeah, we got to come with what we have, we got to listen to who’s already there. And we got to just be curious about how we can do it better. And if we can do that, like, I think there is so much possibility. And I think possibility is the thing that I love the most about abolition work. It is the hardest part for me, but it’s also the most thrilling part. And I just, I think, like, for all the things that I did or didn’t like about this book, I think the idea of it and like what it made me think about, I’m super, super grateful for. I don’t know, if you have anything that you want to add?

Uché Blackstock 55:50
No, I mean, I’m also, I’m also on my abolition journey, just learning more about it. And I love how that look kind of was always in the background in this book for thinking about like how systems work or should work. And so yeah, that was kind of that was the inspirational piece for me.

Traci Thomas 56:07
Yeah, we sort of talked about the cover and the title already. I like I like the Type Cover. I think it’s cute. It’s striking. Like, I’m like, when I see it. I’m like, Oh, I like this. And the I think the title works, but I don’t I don’t have strong feelings about either. How about you?

Uché Blackstock 56:21
I love the cover because it is so striking. And I love the profile and the afro textured here in the the flowers and leaves growing out of it. Um, it actually wasn’t inspiration for my title I’m gonna need for my cover. I sent it to my graphic designer was like I want now. Just so you know, this is a cover that I really love, even though it doesn’t look like anything like this, you know, and then, you know, the final justice piece. Yeah, I mean, I think I love like the idea of what she wants it to mean. And like the inspirational piece about how we grow the world we want so yeah.

Traci Thomas 56:56
And I guess the grow is sort of tied into the like, the like Botany of the person. Yeah, I do. It’s such a striking cover. It definitely stands out and I do I do think it’s really beautiful. Okay, we’re done. I think we’re done. Do we have anything else we want to say? No, we’re good. Hey, everybody. If you haven’t read the book yet, and you just want to hear us talk about it. Go read the book. And while you’re at it, make sure you go get a copy of The New York Times best selling book Legacy: a black physician reckoned with racism in medicine by Dr. Uche Blackstock, today’s guest you can listen to it on audio. She reads it. I did some listening. I did some reading with my eyes. Both ways are fantastic. Dr. Uche Blackstock, thank you for being here.

Uché Blackstock 57:33
Thank you, Traci for having me. This was fun.

Traci Thomas 57:35
Thanks, and everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y’all. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Dr. Uche Blackstock for joining the show. I’d also like to say thank you to Shelby Meislik for helping to make this conversation possible. All right, drumroll please. It is now time for our March Book Club announcement. We will be reading Interior Chinatown by Charles Yu. This bestselling and National Book Award novel follows a seemingly generic man who wants to be the protagonist of his own life and finds adventure in a nearby restaurant. You’ll have to tune in next week on March 6th to find out who our guest will be for our March 27th discussion of Interior Chinatown. If you love the show, and you want inside access to it, you want to support the work that we do here. Go to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you get your podcasts and if you’re listening to us through Apple podcasts or Spotify. Be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks follow us on social media at the stocks pod on Instagram threads and tik tok and not the stocks pod underscore on Twitter. And you can check out our website thestackspodcast.com This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez http://takeonedaily.media
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