Ep. 315 Pete Rose: The Great Anti-hero with Keith O’Brien

Written By Cherie Marquez
Ep. 315 Pete Rose: The Great Anti-hero with Keith O’Brien

Journalist and bestselling author Keith O’Brien joins this episode to talk about his new book Charlie Hustle: The Rise and Fall of Pete Rose, and the Last Glory Days of Baseball. Keith reveals his thoughts on Rose’s complex story, which is anything but black and white. We also discuss the steroid era of baseball, Pete Rose’s legacy around race, and the Baseball Hall of Fame.

The Stacks Book Club selection for April is The January Children by Safia Elhillo. We will discuss the book on April 24th with Hala Alyan.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today we are joined by the New York Times bestselling author Keith O’Brien, whose previous books include Paradise Falls, Fly Girls and Outside Shot. His new book is called Charlie Hustle: The Rise and Fall of Pete Rose and The Last Glory Days of Baseball. It is an incredible look at the history of baseball, America and one of the game’s most iconic figures, Pete Rose. Keith and I talked today about why he wanted to write this book about the ins and outs of the history of baseball, Pete Rose as the great white hope and so much more. Don’t forget to listen next week Wednesday, April 24, to our book club episode, where I’ll be joined by Hala Alyan who will discuss the poetry collection The January Children by Safia Elhillo. Quick reminder, everything we talked about on today’s episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the shownotes. Alright now it’s time for my conversation with Keith O’Brien.

Alright, everybody, I am so excited for today’s episode. You all know how much I love sports. You all know how much I love baseball. And last week, I picked up this new book called Charlie Hustle, and it’s about Pete Rose. And I thought I’m just gonna read this and see, I fell so in love with this book that I immediately reached out to the head of the publisher Lisa Lucas, friend of the show, and was like give me Keith O’Brien’s publicist. We have to make this happen. So I am thrilled to welcome the author of Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of Pete Rose and The Last Glory Days of Baseball. Keith O’Brien, welcome to The Stacks.

Keith O’Brien 3:04
Oh my gosh, it’s my pleasure. I love your podcast. I love your passion for books. And I’m so excited to be here.

Traci Thomas 3:12
If you think I have a passion for books, wait till we start talking about the Hall of Fame because I have a real passion for sports debate. That’s really my true heart and soul.

Keith O’Brien 3:20
I’m here for that.

Traci Thomas 3:23
So I mean, I totally sort of told people what the book’s about, but in about 30 seconds or so will you just tell people in your own words what Charlie Hustle is all about.

Keith O’Brien 3:31
The book is about one of our undeniable icons, whether you love him or hate him, Pete Rose. But more broadly to me. It’s about an ordinary man from an ordinary working class neighborhood. A man of ordinary talents and athleticism, who frankly, probably never should have made the Major Leagues much less become baseball’s all time hit leader who does all those things, climbs the mountain top scrapes and clauses way there with a lot of lucky breaks along the way. And then through his own personal decisions through his own personal choices. Through his own addictions. He loses it all.

Traci Thomas 4:12
Yeah, you can’t say this, but I can. Pee Rose is sort of a monster. I have to tell you, okay. Both of my godfathers are former baseball players. One is a former manager. I grew up like in a very baseball centric, sports centric household. And I’ve always heard of Pete Rose. I was born in 1986. So when the whole scandal came out, I was too young to like, understand anything. And so in my mind, he was like, sort of a likable guy who just got wrapped up in trouble. So I’m like, let me pick up this book and see see what the betting thing was all about. And as I’m reading the book, I just kept going to my husband. Did you know Pete Rose was the worst person maybe ever to play baseball, but also so good at baseball? And I don’t I don’t know if that’s because like Tom name has changed his reputation. And all we know now or like all we think about now is like he cheated and he got kicked out. But like, to me, I was shocked by how scandalous he was.

Keith O’Brien 5:12
He was like a, like a rolling scandal in the 70s and 80s. And I think what’s compelling about it, to me are a few things, you know, one, you know, by the mid 1970s, so 14 years before his, his personal disaster becomes an American disaster. It’s well known an open secret, frankly, in the Cincinnati Reds clubhouse, about what he’s doing off the field. And you know, I don’t mean betting on baseball, but betting with bookies, gambling, gambling a lot, sleeping around, you know, these all of these things were open secrets by the late 1970s. I think the other thing that’s really compelling about Pete Rose is, especially now, I feel like people love to look at him in black and white, and we either paint him in white, like a hero who should have been led into the Hall of Fame many, many years ago. Or we paint them in black, you know, like a monster. And, and, and he’s earned all of those portraits, whatever paint color you use, but to me, what I liked about the narrative was being able to paint in gray too. Yeah. You know, and and I say that without you know, I’m not here to defend P rose. The book doesn’t defend P rose, but he’s a flawed man, incredibly flawed, and most compelling to me is some of the same reasons why he ever succeeded as a player some of the same qualities, why he succeeded at this as a player are the same qualities that doomed him to failure as a person.

Traci Thomas 7:01
Yeah, and I think like you’re so right, that people sort of paint him black and white and I you know, I call him a monster jokingly, but I think what I loved about the book is that he really is he’s like a great anti hero. He’s giving Tony Soprano he’s giving Walter White like he’s a guy you so I was rooting for him even though I was like, I truly despise you because you’re not only was having extramarital affairs, but like some of them with underage women. He was having like children with some of his girlfriends, he was doing all of the things that we hate and are supposed to hate but because he was like this larger than life character, and like, I mean, and also his baseball play, he was sliding you know, he’s the reason we have all these rules about sliding now, like, he was like a bad dude, but I think I speak for myself and a lot of people. We like to root for bad dudes. I always joke that my favorite athletes are the chesty ones. You know, like, I love Draymond Green. I like I want my athlete to be someone that I don’t want to be friends with, but that I know is going to do everything they can to win at every moment. Like when Bryce Harper was like walking to first base and he got chewed out. I was like, Yeah, Bryce Harper, don’t be that fucking guy run to first base. And so like, Pete Rose embodies so much of that of like, I’m gonna win at all costs, which is horrible for a person but fantastic for an athlete.

Keith O’Brien 8:30
And fantastic for narrative to you know, fantastic for story.

Traci Thomas 8:35
Fantastic for a person writing a biography on say, Pete Rose.

Keith O’Brien 8:39
Yes. Take Draymond Green for a second. And I love that we worked Draymond Green into this conversation. That’s fantastic.

Traci Thomas 8:46
Yes, we’re gonna get to Ohtani. Two people don’t you worry.

Keith O’Brien 8:51
In the 70s and 80s. In the NBA, there were lots of Draymond Greens. And they they were in your face, and they got in fights on the floor. And then they got kicked out of the game. And it didn’t turn into a five day saga on ESPN debating and his his worth to our culture and hand wringing about his behavior on the floor. Guys did what they needed to do to win. And in the sports writers moved on. And in the social media world, in the 24 hour cable sports world, we need to have a hot take on these guys every single morning, every single hour. And so it turns Draymond Green to use your example, into this incredible villain. And the fact is, there were lots of guys who did those things on the baseball diamond on the football field on the basketball court in the 70s and 80s. And they did and said things off the field too, sometimes to reporters on the record that ended up in quotes in the newspaper that you could simply never get away with today. And Pete Rose lives in this world. And and he’s got like the, the ultimate Hall Pass, because the sports writers love him. They love him. And and and I think there are two reasons why they love him that are really important. The one is just a tangible reason they love him because he’s accessible. He because he talked to them, he will talk to them. And when he when they come by his locker after a game, he doesn’t shut him down. He doesn’t give them two quotes. He’ll sit there, and I’ll talk to them for 45 minutes and longtime sports writers talking about guys who did the job for 2030 years, said that, you know, if they ever needed a column idea, or they were ever out of story ideas, they just go to pee Rose’s locker and they’d walk away with three ideas. That’s one that’s a real reason why, you know, media will like a source any source. The other reason is more subtle. It for the first 16 years of Pete Rose’s baseball career, there are no women in Major League locker rooms, none. They’re not allowed. And when women finally win entrance to Major League locker rooms in 1979, it’s with federal court orders in lawsuits. Right. So it’s the ultimate old boys club. And let’s be honest, it’s it’s an old white boys club. You know, there were very few prominent writers of color at the big newspapers. So the white baseball press, loves Pete Rose, this white working class guy, he, he reflects upon them a story that we like that, frankly, America likes, you know, this story that if you work hard, and you try hard, and you hustle, you can do anything. We love that American story. Pete Rose is that story. And so he gets a hall pass, and they’re going to look past all of these off field foibles.

Traci Thomas 11:55
Yeah, I want to talk about the race element in this story. Because my godfather is Dusty Baker, former Reds manager, and he knew Pete back in the day. And when I was reading this book, I just I had to Google and be like, What did Baker say about this? Because I remember he had something to say. And one of the things that he said on the record, like an I think the Cincinnati newspaper was that he thought Pete should be let into the Hall of Fame. And one of the reasons why is because when he was a young player, he and Ralph Garr, you know, they’d go to these different cities. And the older Black players would invite them over for dinner with their with their families. And the only white player who ever did that was Pete Rose. And so Dusty always had sort of a soft spot or has a soft spot for him because of that, because in the time when race was so prominent in baseball in a way that it is different now, because now it’s more like ethnicity, right? It’s about like American born players versus like foreign born players. But in the 70s, it was really like about race. He was not a racist, which is sort of shocking, because he was a lot of other horrible things, you know, like based on the book. And what’s really interesting about that, to me, and I guess where the question is, is that he was presented as this great white hope he was the person that white people could latch on to as our greatest and he was the guy, you know, when there were so many black players that were really beloved. And then there’s also Roberto Clemente for a period of time, right? There’s all these black and brown players that people really got behind. Pete Rose was the white guy, but he wasn’t really playing into that on in his own personal life. So I’m wondering if you if any of that came up for you, and like sort of what you make of all of that?

Keith O’Brien 13:40
Yeah, it’s fascinating. And I love that that anecdote from Dusty. I wish I had interviewed you to get to Dusty for that anecdote.

Traci Thomas 13:50
I did text him after I read the book. I’ll tell you what he said off the record, because it was it was private, but he still is fond of Pete. Fascinating.

Keith O’Brien 13:58
So this is a very interesting dichotomy within Pete Rose. You know, he’s from this white working class, part of Cincinnati called the west side, a specific neighborhood and on the west side called Anderson Ferry, you know, his, his entire high school was almost entirely white. So he comes up and this, this culture, baseball itself is very white in the 1960s. We forget that but it was, and one of the first lessons Pete gets as a rookie is that his teammates, the white players, the famous ones on the team don’t like him, because he had jumped the line. He had jumped in front of more established players. He had maybe been called up too soon because he was a great Cincinnati story. And and he had taken the job of of a popular white second baseman named Don Blasingame. And it doesn’t help that Pete is incredibly arrogant and brash and even as a rookie He is saying all the wrong things, you know, publicly saying how great he is. So they don’t like him. And in the early weeks of his first year in professional baseball, there are really only two friends that he has on his team. And one is future Hall of Famer Frank Robinson. And the other is Vada Pinson, the black players. And Frank Robinson, you die before I could interview him for this book. But Robbie said later that, you know, they understood what he was going through because they knew what it felt like to be an outcast too. And so they invite him out to dinner and breakfast on the road, you know, Frank Robinson buys his meals, a thing that a, an established player might do for a kid rookie. And, and it’s funny, because Pete Rose, both then, throughout his career, and now cannot speak about race or anything in the progressive vocabulary of the day. And, you know, even into the 1970s, you know, at roasts and such things for some of his players, you know, would some of his teammates would would make jokes in which the punch line is is a racial trope. But in interview after interview that I did with black teammates that he had over the years, they all said that they loved him. And and one of the most powerful interviews I did was with a player named George Foster, who dusty would certainly know and many of your listeners will know George Foster was in an epic home run hitter in the 1970s. Pre steroids, obviously. And you know, by the end of the decade is one of the best power hitters in baseball. But in his earliest days with the reds, George Foster is a benchwarmer. He’s nobody, and they don’t know what they have in Him. And and there was a scene that I found in my research and in a newspaper article in the early 1970s, after a game when P rose demands to go hit in that moment to go practice in that moment as the sun is setting at Riverfront stadium. And they let him because Pete Rose, and you can’t stop that man from hitting a baseball. And George Foster goes out that night and shags balls in the outfield for him and Pete hits for like an hour. And so the coach’s arm is about to fall off. And then, because George has been shagging balls all night, Pete Rose asks, you know, George, do you want to hit I’ll throw you a BP. And you know, for the next hour, it’s Pete Rose, throwing BP to George Foster, who is no one. And when I found Foster and I nit, and he agreed to speak to me, we talked about lots of things, of course, but I wanted to talk about this scene does he remember this scene? And I thought there’s just no way George Foster would remember this. George Foster has played a million baseball games. And you know, done batting practice a good jillion times there’s no way. And when I asked Foster, he absolutely remembered it. And what he told me was, he remembered it, because no white player and specifically he said, no white star had ever treated him like that before had ever treated him that well before.

Traci Thomas 18:19
So interesting. And Joe Morgan also was a fan of his till the end till the end of Joe Morgan’s life that is, but what about the part of it where he is like this great white hope? How did he engage with that aspect? I’m sure I’m sure he loved it seems like a kind of guy who’d love being anybody’s great hoping anything. But it sort of seems like at odds with this like guy who’s maybe good on race, at least maybe not good on race, like publicly but at least like good to his black teammates, which is, you know, in, especially in that day and age, good on race, because he did not have to be.

Keith O’Brien 18:56
Yeah, I think one thing we’ve forgotten is that, you know, when Pete Rose is in baseball, especially that first 15 years in baseball, it’s changing so much. And the world is changing so much and the way it’s changing right now. And there is just as there is a segment of the population right now, who is recoiling from so many cultural changes that are happening, that are more inclusive to others. There was a segment of the population in the 1960s and 70s. That was recoiling from that. Yeah. And and you know, baseball is part of that, you know, it becomes incredibly more diverse in the first decade that Pete is in the league, you know, goes from, you know, all star teams being almost entirely white to by the early 1970s. All Star starters being you know, predominantly black or Latino. So, in this world, Pete Rose is now this symbol of a bygone time, and yet he’s not being paid Pete Rose Isn’t by, you know, the standards of Roberto Clemente or a Willie Mays. And, and there are reasons for that Willie Mays and Roberto were far more established, you know, by 1972. Pete was, but he wants that money, he wants that kind of recognition. And so yeah, he does, you know, at least on a couple of occasions, you know, use his race and his status as the, quote, great white hope to foster the greater sense that he should be paid more. And, you know, one of these happens around 1969. And he, you know, tells the press, that he’s the best white player in the game. And in saying that, what he’s saying is, I want to be paid like the best players like Willie Mays. And Pete denies the comment when it makes the papers, you know, for all the reasons we could understand. Yeah, but the beat writers knew him best at the time, you know, row column saying, well, he denied it. But That sure sounds like Pete Rose to me.

Traci Thomas 21:05
Feels sort of on brand for him. I mean, I think that was what was so shocking. When I read what he said. I was like, really? Because he doesn’t seem like that guy. But it does. It also does make sense. I mean, I think that’s what’s so great about his story and the book and just like, learning about him is that he is a lot of things that feel really obvious. And then he’s also a lot of things where you’re like, Oh, I’m sort of surprised by this about you’re like, I’m sort of surprised that this happened this way. Or this is where you came from, or this is where you were headed. I normally like start interviews with this question. But we got, we just were rolling. But I do want to know where I know you’re from Cincinnati. So I know that you know, he must be loomed large in your in your you no sports world. But when did you get the idea for this book? Why did you want to write this story? Like, why did you grow up a huge reds fan? Were you always curious or did something happen more recently that made you say, I’m going to write this book now.

Keith O’Brien 22:03
Like all the writers fiction or nonfiction you talk to I got that long list of ideas half baked, some of you know about books I might want to write and Pete Rose, it’s just been on that list for some time. In part, because I feel like while we know the general outlines of his story that rise and fall, I do feel like most people, even baseball fans have forgotten why we ever cared about heroes in the first place. We’ve forgotten why he does loom so large over baseball, and overall, our sports culture. And so I did believe that if I could get access to Rose and folks in his inner circle, and tell a human story, that it could be really compelling. And in one reason, I believe that is that this story is so powerful on its own. And one of the challenges I faced especially after I did all my reporting, and had all my federal court documents and had 1000s of pages of baseball investigative records, was just staying out of the way. You know, sometimes when you’re writing, you have to figure out what is the structure here? How do I fit this part in the pizza is the is sort of that epic, tragic structure that that, that epic, you know, Greek tragedy, and I did really begin to think of it in that way. You know, he was, you know, as I wrote in the author’s note, I began to see him as Icarus and read stirrup socks and cleats, he’s going to fly. Pete Rose is going to fly, but he is going to fall. And I thought if I had the access, that that would be powerful. And I just knew that knowing Cincinnati, knowing the part of town where he grew up, knowing guys like Pete Rose, my whole life would provide insights in my reporting. You know, there’s that old cliche, right, right, which, you know, I’ve moved away from Cincinnati a long time ago. But I know this story, and I know what all to what it felt like, at the high and the low, you know, like you I wasn’t alive for the whole arc. I don’t remember the 1970s at all. But I remember exactly where I was on the night when Pete Rose set the all time hit record in 1985. I know what that felt like. And I also remember living through the scandal in 1989 as a baseball fan as a Cincinnatian and traveling that whole road with him from, you know, defending him to decrying him, to ultimately feeling saddled by this story. And again, I think baseball is still saddled with the Pete Rose story.

Traci Thomas 25:14
Okay, I’m going to share my personal, similar similarities because it does come up at the end of the book, and I do want to talk about it, which is I am a San Francisco Giants fan. And I was at the game where Barry Bonds hit seventy one and two, I believe. I obviously was a giant my dad was from San Francisco. Baker was the manager when I was a kid. I was a Giants fan. I am a Giants fan. I met my husband at a San Francisco Giants bar in New York City in 2010. I am a Giants fan through and through. But of course, Barry bond complicates that narrative in a way that I think is really similar to what happens with Pete Rose, right? Does this person belong to belong in the Hall of Fame does this person do his records count. And obviously steroids is slightly different because it’s more tied to the records that were broken, right. Pete Rose was betting on baseball as a manager, which affects the outcomes of the games, but doesn’t affect his ability to hit the hits that he hit to hit but to make the hit record, but that feeling of feeling saddled with this person I totally relate to. And when we get to the end of the book, I of course, did not remember the timeline in the same way because I was very young, but we sort of get to Pete Rose the whole thing, he goes to prison, he watches, you know, Jose Conseco or Yeah, Jose can take go and Mark McGwire play as the A’s at the start of the steroid era. And it’s sort of like it goes right from Pete Rose scandal into what we now know as the steroid era. And then we come out of that, and we get shipped baseball. And now, Major League Baseball has changed every rule to try to get us back to steroids era Pete Rose era baseball, which I hate all of the rule changes so deeply. And I have to tell you, Keith, I get made so much fun by every person I know who’s like my age, because they’re like, Are you a 75 year old man that you care so deeply about these stupid? Like, why is the bag bigger? They don’t need a pitch clock. It’s not a time like I have real like retrograde opinions about the real changes. But I love anyways, all that to say, what do you think about punishment in Major League Baseball, and I guess you can include the Astros sort of in this conversation too. Where are we on this? What’s what should be going on? Like, I feel really torn because I feel that Pete Rose and Barry Bonds and all the steroids guys should all be in the Hall of Fame. They were the best of their time. If everyone’s doing it, they were still the best put an asterix be done. But I’m curious what you think about all of that?

Keith O’Brien 28:11
Yes. So to be clear, the book is not about making an argument for Pete Rose. It’s not about making an argument against him.

Traci Thomas 28:18
Yes, you don’t make an argument. I want you to make one here.

Keith O’Brien 28:21
Yes, I have thought so much about it. And not just as someone who just wrote this book. Yeah. Right. All the things you said about what baseball means to you and your your, your personal connections with a baseball moment, I have all that I feel that in my soul, like any baseball fan does. And so I too, have wrestled with these questions. And, and I in the course of the last 35 years with Pete Rose in the last 20 years with the steroid guys, I have probably touched all the bases from they should be out forever. They made their beds. That’s it, it’s over. And two other thoughts. And at this point, I have, I think, come full circle to a prevailing thought, which is I think we have completely lost perspective. You know, we like to put our athletes on pedestals and we like to ascribe to them moral values. And the fact is, for many of them, they’re just really, really good at playing a little kids game. And we don’t know that much about them personally, we just don’t end the show. Hey, situation, the show Hey, Otani story in in the recent weeks, you know, shows that all over again. We don’t know what we don’t know with that story right now. But what we do know definitively is that a few weeks ago, no one would have ever predicted that a gambling controversy would be swirling, swirling around the golden god of baseball Shohei Otani. So we don’t know what we don’t know. And for all the As reasons, I believe that we should enshrine or not enshrine players in all sports, based on what they did on the field, on the court between the lines. It’s the only thing we know for sure. And then if there are crimes against the game, or you know, the stakes off the field are so egregious, then we should put those on the plaque at Cooperstown, in my opinion, right next to the accomplishments. And, you know, if we start going down the rabbit hole of the steroid guys versus Rose, we’re gonna need three or four podcasts to hash it out. But, you know, in my opinion, again, not part of the book, but in my opinion, the steroid era hurt baseball for me, and for most fans, more than the rose problem did, certainly and and I did struggle, and I have struggled with the steroid guys, Clemens and bonds and a rod and all those guys. But at this point, I just feel like it’s almost absurd to have a Hall of Fame in Cooperstown that just now objectively doesn’t include some of the best players of the last four or five decades. It just, it just doesn’t make sense to me.

Traci Thomas 31:23
I’m with you. I’m with you. I just I think I have a personal I have personal feelings about baseball writers because of this. Because I’m convinced they just like don’t like Barry Bonds, because he’s not a nice guy. It’s very cold. And they took it personally, which I get the he lied to you, they all lied to you. But also, like do your job and just vote these people out and leave me alone. Like stay out of it?

Keith O’Brien 31:44
Well, in Barry also has something in common with Pete Rose. You know, if everybody wanted Pete Rose from the earliest days of his scandal in 1989. Everybody wanted Pete Rose to go on Oprah to cry to bear his soul to the world admit his addictions and his problems. Explain why why would you do this? And if he had done that, maybe the whole narrative is different. And I think the same can be said for Barry Bonds, I think and the other steroid guys, you know, if they were to bear their souls, on The Stacks with you.

Traci Thomas 32:29
What a dream! The invitation is open, yes, A Rod, come on down, come on let’s go.

Keith O’Brien 32:35
If they were to do that, then it’s different. And that was part of my pitch with Pete Rose, when I did get access to him. You know, I explained that, you know, this is a time for reckoning, man, I mean, you’re in your 80s. Now, the people who were in the room in the dugout on the field, they’re also in their 80s. Now, since I started the research and reporting for my book, three different people have passed away people that I interviewed. And so it’s time for reckoning. And I told Pete, that we have to, we have to talk about the dark things too. Because if you let people into your darkness, and I don’t mean that in an in a various way, we all have our darkness, our regrets, our mistakes, the things we carry on our shoulders, those moments. God, we all have that. And if P rose or Barry Bonds, or anyone were to lead people into the darkness, crack open the door to that room and let us understand why. Then it’s different.

Traci Thomas 33:41
It is. Yeah. I want to ask you about Pete Rose, because in the author’s note, you mentioned that he was a part of the book. I think you phrased it as like he was a part of the process until he was it or something like that. So what happened? What was that? Like? Obviously, he’s signed off on it at some point, because you did have access to him and sort of what what changed? At what point did he decide he no longer wanted to talk to you?

Keith O’Brien 34:06
Yeah, for sure. As I want to say, I’m really grateful that Pete Rose spoke to me, you know, 27 hours of recorded interviews in on the phone and in person. It’s significant for lots of reasons, but also because he’d never spoken to an author before unless he had editorial control over the book. He did not have that here. And he did, he did talk to me about things, mistakes, moments, choices that he’s never talked about before. And that is incredibly helpful to the story. And so I was I was glad to have it. But I did push him. And and I know he felt that at times. And I think maybe in the end I pushed him as far as he was willing to go. We didn’t have a falling out. There was No contentious moment. The last two times I saw him in person. The day ended with him saying call me yeah, we’ll get together again soon come back to Las Vegas where I live, stay at that hotel again, that works for me, we’re good. But he did not reply to any of my texts or phone messages after that. So you know, I lost him. And that happens sometimes in reporting book, but I never had intended for this book to, to just be based upon p roses memories. When I started the project, I wasn’t even sure I would get access to him. So, you know, I continued to, to do interviews with others, others in his inner circle, others who were on the field with them. And, and there is notably, you know, a trove of federal court records in Ohio that are, were so useful to me. Because, again, just like what’s happening in Los Angeles right now, surrounding Shohei Otani and his former interpreter, it was a federal investigation that first created problems in Pete’s life. And it wasn’t initially focused on Pete Rose, it was focused on men in his inner circle, who were his good pals, who were, you know, hiding his secrets. And, and in placing his bets with bookies, these guys were into all kinds of activities, they pop up under the radar. And one thing that begins to happen in around 1987, is, you know, the walls be begin to close around each of them. And one thing that I tried to do in this in the sort of final act of the book is convey that feeling that the walls are closing one by one, these men around Pete, get a knock on the door from an FBI agent, or two, or three, and they want to talk. And, you know, one by one, they all begin to talk and they all begin to turn on each other. And soon, they’re turning on Pete Rose too.

Traci Thomas 37:19
Yeah. Was there anything that you didn’t get to ask Pete, that you wish that you had so much?

Keith O’Brien 37:30
I mean, a voluminous amount of things, partially, because, you know, I was doing those interviews, and then I’m doing other interviews, and if you do an interview with someone else, and they describe a scene or a moment or a choice, or something that happened in a back room over a debate about $30,000 in gambling debts, I wasn’t able to go back to P rose and ask him about that. So, you know, that’s certainly a problem. And so, you know, at times I had to work around that, you know, by by doing other reporting, you know, by by going to the court records or by trying to corroborate the story through through other sources. And in a handful of instances in the book, I had to source it directly to, you know, one or two sources, because I wasn’t able to ask Pete Rose about it.

Traci Thomas 38:24
Yeah, that makes sense. Um, can you just speculate for me what you think’s going on with Otani? Are you allowed to do that?

Keith O’Brien 38:31
We’re all speculating, right?

Traci Thomas 38:33
I know. But I’m like, I’m not sure if that’s like a pro. I don’t know if you’re allowed to, I don’t know. I mean, you’re not like you’re writing that book or anything. I have my own thoughts, but I also hate the Dodgers. So my thoughts are when I was also this, I started your book, and the next day or two days later, the new cert so of course, Pete Rose is front top of mind for me as I’m watching all of this, so I’m convinced he’s the gambler. The interpreter is is Tommy Giacomo or whatever the guy’s name is Tommy, Tommy. Josiah. That’s right. Tommy Giacomo is that met with a former maitre d at the palms of Las Vegas? He’s not part of my book Tommy Joe. He’s not I like anyways, but or any of that. Like, I’m just like, this interpreter is the guys from Gold’s Gym. Like he is just a pawn and the whole big thing, but I’m curious what your what your read on the situation is.

Keith O’Brien 39:24
So let’s get the key statement out of the way off the top show Hey has denied any involvement he has denied ever gambling and he’s denied knowledge of.

Traci Thomas 39:36
Such a good journalist. I’m like, Just tell me what you think.

Keith O’Brien 39:38
Yes, So he has denied it.

Traci Thomas 39:39
This is all allegedly; this is all us saying our speculation based off his denials. We don’t know no one knows. Okay, now go.

Keith O’Brien 39:48
Let me tell you what I can say based on what I know about how it went down with Pete Rose. And what I know about gamblers in general gambler yours, especially someone who’s gambling a lot. They have to talk about it. You know, it is not something that no one knows about. A gambler who’s betting a lot is talking to his close pals about the action he’s got going that day, a gambler who’s betting a lot will have mood swings based on how the outcomes of those games have gone. So, again, if it was it Bay, Meizu Hara the the former interpreter, and Shohei Otani, his closest friend in Los Angeles, who was placing these bets on a regular basis, I find it highly unlikely, just as someone who knows a little something about gambling, that no one would know, that his close friends wouldn’t know. I find that unlikely based on what I know about gamblers. And I think, based on what we know about Pete Rose, we are probably going to learn a lot more about what really happened here. You know, Pete in in shohet, are different because, you know, it was Pete who was alleged to have gambled and it was Pete, who is alleged to have gambled on baseball, which breaks the cardinal rule of baseball, and threatens the integrity of the game for all the reasons we know. That’s different right now with with Shohei Otani. What is similar is that early on, both men have denied any involvement whatsoever. And it was investigators who began to get to the truth. You know, when Pete Rose’s scandal first breaks, not long before opening day 35 years ago. It’s a rumor, and it’s murky, and no one really knows. And it’s easy for Pete to say they’re wrong, because nobody really knows. But by the end of May, Major League Baseball has a dossier of 1000s of pages of documents. That includes depositions, legal depositions, with one man who has placed Pete’s bets on baseball. It includes a deposition with the bookie who has taken the bets entered includes gambling records, which in 1989, were notes and no pads and notebooks, but today are very likely to be texts, and IP addresses and other such things. So I think in in a matter of weeks or months, we’re going to know a lot more. And, and we and we may get to the closer version of the truth, that truth may be ugly. And the biggest concern I would have if I was Shohei Ohtani is team or if Mizohara’s team is that this alleged illegal bookie and question begins to talk because if he does, we’re gonna know things that nobody knows at this hour, and the scandal could implode from there.

Traci Thomas 43:27
And implosion for the Dodgers, what a dream. I only hope that this can come true for all of us giants, fans, and all of us dodge or haters across this great nation. I have a question about the audiobook because I did listen to this on audio and the audiobook narrator was fantastic. Ellen Adair. But I do have a question because she is a woman. And I was really curious about that choice. I had my own hypothesis about why you all went with her, but I’m curious if you can speak to that at all.

Keith O’Brien 43:56
So I did not know Ellen personally when the project began, but last year I came to connect with her through social media. She is a massive baseball fan. A Phillies fan will forgive her for that house. Nightmare. Exactly. She’s a huge baseball fan, really passionate about baseball, and she was also the voice of for one of Joe Posnanski his books. The famed baseball writer Joe Posnanski. And so I wanted someone who read this book to be someone who was passionate about baseball. And I loved her work on because Nancy’s book I love you know the love she spreads for baseball online. And and you know when we were canvassing for for our audio book near eraider we did listen to a number of samples. And there was an early inclination from some folks that we should go with a man just like a knee jerk reaction that sort of happens. But I listened to Ellen’s read, I loved it. And to me, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a man or a woman reading the book, if the voice is strong, if it conveys the emotion, and it was important for me that the person actually care about the story, and Ellen absolutely did. And so that’s why I went with her.

Traci Thomas 45:34
I love that she was great. She was so great. My hypothesis was actually that if a man had read the book, you wouldn’t be able to relate to Pete Rose at all, because some of the things that he did and said were so just horrible, that hearing out of a man’s voice would be such a turn off. Like I kept thinking about especially like the extramarital affairs, and like about his wives and stuff. I just was like, I don’t know if I for some dude was like, being like, the girl was 14, I would have been like, you know what, it feels a little flip, even though like, it’s just because that’s the story. So I was like, oh, maybe they picked her. Because she also like, could kind of like soften him a little bit for the listener. But it’s, I just think maybe that’s just what I got from it.

Keith O’Brien 46:18
It wasn’t that and I just do remember, I was already thinking about Ellen, before any recommendations came from the publisher, but when the original email did come, they had four or five samples. And the first four were men. All great, great reads, incredible talents. And then the fifth one was sort of a curveball here. No pun intended. What about Ellen Adair? And I said, Oh, my gosh, I have been thinking about Ellen, we follow each other on social media. Yes, let’s get a sample from Ellen. Let’s, let’s see. Let’s see what she thinks about this read.

Traci Thomas 46:56
I love that. I love that she did such a great job. So for folks who are not sure. The audiobook, I highly recommend too. So don’t don’t worry if you’re some people, you know, they like to know for sure audiobooks. Good. And she’s great. Okay, let’s talk about your process. I know we like so much baseball. Like I gotta talk about writing, too. How do you like to write how often how many hours a day music or no TV, snacks, beverages, etc.

Keith O’Brien 47:23
By the way, I’m gonna title to my memoir, snacks and beverages just based upon your question at the end of the podcast, or maybe you should be it your memoir, yeah, to be your memoir. So, you know, as a nonfiction writer, I, you know, I have to do the reporting, I have to do the research. And when I’m in research mode, you know, whether I’m doing hours and hours of interviews a day or I’m in the federal court archive, or I’m in a real archive, that’s that’s the mode I’m in and I’m not doing any writing during that time. But of course, I’m thinking about it. And I’m always thinking about it. And I’m identifying in the moment in the archive, oh my gosh, this deposition is so crucial to this part of the narrative. Once I you know, believe I have enough to get started I start to write and when I’m writing, I love to just be at it first thing in the morning. So I have two kids, the kids get out the door to school, I walk the dogs and I’m you know, ideally my desk writing before nine o’clock, and I just tried to get in the zone and unlike you, I’m not a tea guy. I’m a coffee guy guy black coffee, too much of it probably. And and I will, you know, right for as long as I can in that workday, and I try to get every day to a good stopping point. I find it a challenge as a writer to wake up the next day and dive into a messy part of the draft. So I want to get to a nice clean break, whether that’s sort of a section break or just sort of a thematic break. So that I feel like I have to have some sort of closure there. And then when I come back to the desk the next morning, after getting the kids out the door and walking the dogs and having my coffee, I will reread what I wrote the day before. I will make quick tweaks to that I will not belabor it’s, if you if you linger too long on what you wrote the day before you’ll never get started again. But I’ll read that 800 words or 600 words or 1200 words or whatever it is. And and then I just keep going again and and write as long as I can and if I have to come back late in the day at night, just to get to that clean break. That’s what I do.

Traci Thomas 49:59
I love that. How does this book compare for you? To your other books? Do you have favorites of your own work? Do you have like those kind of feelings? I know this is your newest child. So you might love it a little bit more. But I’m just curious, maybe less, because it’s not sleeping at night and keeping you up and all those things. But I’m just curious, like, how do you think about this in relationship to the other books that you’ve written?

Keith O’Brien 50:23
You know, every book I’ve written is important to me. I love them all. It’s a cliche, they’re your children, you love all your children. But your children have different skills and talents, special parts, right? I mean, they do.

Traci Thomas 50:39
And you love some more than others. Let’s be honest. I’m a parent, I have twins. I fucking know. One of my kids gets on my last nerve.

Keith O’Brien 50:46
You are so funny. I love it. You know? So I will say about this book. What’s different about it? Is it is more personal. Because I sort of lived it. Because it was that this narrative, the rise and fall of heroes is sort of the backdrop of my childhood. Because in a great many ways, that whole story and all the problems that Pete has created, still looms over Cincinnati, my hometown. So for all those reasons, it is definitely my most personal book, even though I’m not in it, you know, you know, it’s, there’s no first person in this story at all, but it is more personal. And there were times and writing it. You know, whether it was writing about peds collapse in 1989. And remembering what that felt like as a teenage boy in 1989, or, you know, writing about a neighborhood on the west side of Cincinnati, that I that I know that it was just distinctly more personal. And another thing happened along the way, you know, I was interviewing these folks, the people who lived it, not just Pete Rose. But say John Dowd, you know, the investigator who pursues Pete Rose, who was hired by Bart Giamatti and in Cincinnati in the 1980s. And in some cases, still today, you know, John Dowd is the villain. And, and, and people still say, not just in Cincinnati, but baseball fans everywhere, sometimes still say, you know, Bart Giamatti and John Dowd, they had a vendetta against Pete Rose. And those are things that I might have thought once, you know, say in 1989, as a fan as a teenager, but in interviewing the people around Bart Giamatti, and interviewing John Dowd at length many times, you know, I learned so much about how this moment affected him. And how this was in many ways, the defining moment of his life, for good or for ill, and that John Dowd is still carrying all of these feelings about Pete Rose on his shoulders 35 years later. And one thing that was just stunning again, and again, was how emotional sources gods. When talking to me about Pete, it was as if they had briefly passed through his universe, they and that time, there had shaped them forever. And in talking about it, they would become emotional and, and that is something that’s happened to me many times, of course, as a journalist over the years, but never in a in a book, you know, like this, you know, it was emotional.

Traci Thomas 53:53
So interesting. Okay, we’re almost out of time. But I have I have three quick questions. One is what’s the word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Keith O’Brien 54:00
I cannot spell rhythm. No idea.

Traci Thomas 54:04
I have to tell you, Keith, your name is impossible for me. Because one is E I and one is I II, and I get it wrong. Keith is already a hard name for me. O’Brien is just it’s so disrespectful that your name is the E-I like complex actively happening. Every time I go to like write about this book and write your name, I get it wrong. And so you are now my like, nightmare of a guest because of your name; it is so hard for me.

Keith O’Brien 54:33
Traci, you can spell my name however you want.

Traci Thomas 54:36
Well, you’ll probably find typos when we post about this episode. For people who love Charlie Hustle, what are some other books you might recommend that are in conversation with what you’ve created?

Keith O’Brien 54:47
Well, I mean, there are some great baseball narratives out there that I think you know, share certain qualities. I’m a huge fan of David Halberstam and my favorite baseball book that he did was October 1964. Although there are many and and you know if you’re looking to capture the grittiness of baseball, I think Jonathan Mahler’s Ladies and Gentlemen, the Bronx is Burning. Yeah, about the 1977 Yankees and Reggie Jackson. That is another one of my favorite baseball books.

Traci Thomas 55:27
Okay, that was the one that that came to my mind, too. Okay, last question. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?

Keith O’Brien 55:36
Oh my gosh. You know, to me, broadcasters and radio and television broadcasters of baseball sort of become like the voice in your head for baseball. And for me because of my age. And because of my era. That voice is Bob Costas. And so if Bob Costas could read my book and find anything in it enjoyable, it would be amazing.

Traci Thomas 56:04
Did y’all send it to him?

Keith O’Brien 56:05
I believe so. Yes.

Traci Thomas 56:06
Okay. Good. Okay, good. All right, folks, this has been just a joy of a conversation with Keith O’Brien. Good luck spelling that folks. The book is called Charlie Hustle. It is out in the world. You can get it wherever you get the book. Audio is fantastic. Fantastic. I loved loved loved this book. And for those of you listening who are like, I don’t like sports, and I don’t like baseball. I would say you can definitely read this book because Pete Rose is such a character in the scandal is just such a scandal. And he’s such like a scammer bad guy that it is just, again, that antihero narrative. When I went into the book, I thought this is only a book for baseball people. And when I came when I got about halfway through I was like, Oh no, I think I think regular regular people who don’t like to have fun and don’t like baseball, they could enjoy it too. So if you’re on the fence, I think you’d like it. But all that to say Keith, thank you so much for being here.

Keith O’Brien 56:57
It was my pleasure, Traci, so much fun.

Traci Thomas 57:00
And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Alright, y’all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Keith O’Brien for being my guest. I’d also like to say a huge thank you to Michiko Clark for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember next week is the Stacks book club conversation of The January Children by Safia Elhillo. We will be discussing that book with Hala Alyan on Wednesday, April 24th. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com/thestacks to join the stacks pack or go to tracithomas.substack.com to read Unstacked. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you’re listening through Apple podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram threads and tik tok and at thestackspod underscore on Twitter. And you can check out our website thestackspodcast.com This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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