Ep. 318 Compassion, Justice, and Anger Are Not Mutually Exclusive with Paula Yoo

Written By Cherie Marquez
Ep. 318 Compassion, Justice, and Anger Are Not Mutually Exclusive with Paula Yoo

Today the prolific and award-winning children's book and Young Adult author Paula Yoo joins us. Her new nonfiction book is Rising from the Ashes: Los Angeles, 1992. Edward Jae Song Lee, Latasha Harlins, Rodney King, and a City on Fire. Paula explains why she wants to write these stories from recent American history for young people, and how she teaches her readers without being condescending or preachy. She also shares stories that didn't make the book but still left an impact on her.

The Stacks Book Club selection for May is No Name in the Street by James Baldwin. We will discuss the book on May 29th with Yahdon Israel.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and today we welcome author Paula Yoo. Paula has just released her new YA nonfiction book Rising from the Ashes: Los Angeles 1992, Edward Jae Song Lee, Latasha Harlins, Rodney King, and a City on Fire. The book is a stunning account of the racial tensions in Los Angeles that fueled the 1992 uprisings after the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King, along with a strong focus on the experiences and relationships of Korean and Black Angelenos. Paula and I talked today about why I'm obsessed with this event, why she's writing historical nonfiction for young people and how she teaches her readers without being condescending. I really love this book. And I hope that you get it for yourself and for young people in your life. Don't forget the Stacks book club pick for May is James Baldwin's No Name in the Street. We will discuss that book on May 29th with Yahdon Israel. Now it's time for my conversation with Paula Yoo.

Alright everybody, I am very excited. Today I am joined by author Paula Yoo. Her newest book is called Rising from the Ashes: Los Angeles 1992, Edward Jae Song Lee, Latasha Harlins, Rodney King, and a City on Fire. And let me just say, these events in 1992 are perhaps the most important events to me in my entire life. So the fact that this book exists, is just so exciting to me. And Paula, I'm so glad you're here. So welcome to The Stacks.

Paula Yoo 3:01
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Traci Thomas 3:05
So for people who don't know, I mean, I think that the title pretty much tells you the gist of the book. But for people who don't know, in about 30 seconds, can you tell us about the book?

Paula Yoo 3:14
Of course, Rising from the ashes is a nonfiction narrative young adult book about the 1992 Los Angeles uprising. But what makes it different from other books is that I focus specifically on what happened in Koreatown, and the relationship between the Korean American and Black communities before, during and after the civil unrest. And I also take a step back and look at the larger historical events that led up to what happened in both 1991 and 1992. And the reason why I focused on the three families is because I wanted to celebrate the lives of Eddie, Tasha and Glenn and their legacy. And to make the story more personal. So it's about how these three three families lives are actually very interwoven and connected beyond ways than any of them could imagine. And also, I just wanted to show what happened to their loved ones afterwards. And the resilience, courage and also especially the compassion and empathy they showed afterwards.

Traci Thomas 4:15
Yeah, I really loved this book. I loved your book about Vincent Chen. I love nonfiction. And as a kid, I read a lot of adult books, there weren't a lot of nonfiction books as like about the things I was interested in. I felt like as a kid, the options were, like, read about dinosaurs, or read like a novel. And so I was, you know, finding, finding other things to read about. But what I love about your books, these books that are like talking about these huge cultural moments that were so groundbreaking for for people, is that you're directing them to this next generation. And so I'm curious, especially with this one, were you do you have a sense of if young people even know about the events of 1990 To like, Is this even on their radar?

Paula Yoo 5:03
Absolutely not. A lot of them don't know. I mean, when when joy, which is shocked, I'm a Gen Xer.

Traci Thomas 5:10
And I'm a millennial. So this was like, when I was a kid, this happened. And it like, scared the shit out of me. Right? Like, I was really young, and it was really scary. Um, so I was like, I bet kids don't even know.

Paula Yoo 5:23
And first of all, I'm sorry that it scares you. Because I can't imagine being that young because the fires, the violence that was happening, the lack of control and the way the city just shut down. And this actually transpired across the country, there were protests and similar things happening in other cities across the country all the way to the East Coast. Rodney King's daughter, Laura was only eight years old. I mean, she she was a child, she was very close to your age. And so imagine how she felt. Yeah. And actually, I was 23. And I was a, I was wrapping up my master's in journalism at Columbia University in New York. So I was as far away as you could be. It affected us over there as well. I already forgot the first part of the question. So of course, kids are not going to remember what happened we 30 years ago. In fact, we celebrated or we acknowledged the 30th anniversary just recently in 2022. And in fact, we now have a whole generation that was born after 911, after all these events. And I remember, when George Floyd happened in the Black Lives Matter, protests happened across the country. A lot of times people brought up oh, this reminds us of Rodney King. And I remember my husband is a seventh grade math teacher, a lot of the kids were saying things like, Oh, he's the OG, Rodney King, the CO OG, George Floyd. So I think that, you know, and I think that also, the concept of video cameras back then, were starting to become just as prevalent as iPhones. And I think that that's a little bit of a disconnect for today's teenagers and kids, because they're used to iPhones, but they don't understand that for us. You know, growing up the video camera was basically our iPhone. And so that culture has always existed. But I think that just the technology has gotten smaller, you can carry it in your pocket now.

Traci Thomas 7:14
Yeah, I mean, there's so many moments about technology in this book that like flared for me, there's the scene, once the like, once everything starts happening. And we've got these photo journalists who are down at Florence in Normandy, and one of them, of course, goes into a photo or into a phone booth when I'm like, Haha, these kids have no idea. But the other one is, it's like I had to replenish his film. So he see one photographers like here, take this film back to like the LA Times. And I'm going to stay out here. And here's a whole like case of film. And I'm thinking, Oh, my gosh, kids, like what are they talking about? Like I even I forgot, of course, they had film back then, of course, there was like stuff that they had to carry with them to get the shots. They weren't just like filming on their iPhones or snapping pictures, unlimited pictures, they were like really trying to be economical and make sure they could carry everything and get the get out safely with the film.

Paula Yoo 8:08
Yes, exactly. Photographers back then photo journalists were actual witnesses. They were basically like war correspondents, they were using their words were were there photos. And because they had a limited supply of film, you know, they carried around these heavy bags to you know, in the large photo telephoto lens and things like that, you know, they had to, as with writers be judicious, you know, and to really make sure that they were capturing important moments. So they weren't just click, click, click, click click, they were actually looking for stories and looking for what can I show that's important that our readers need to know about. And I do think the good thing, though, is that today's kids, a lot of them do know about old fashioned photography with dark rooms and chemical baths and things like that, because that's actually making a comeback, you know, there. Yeah, it's because I think kids are fascinated by taking more of your time. And really figuring out storytelling of my voice, the way I tell a story. My perspective is through a camera lens, how can I use it and you see that you see that in the voices of young people making Tik Tok videos or stuff that they post on social media? So I think it's really lovely, that there's a new generation of kids who are kind of think they think it's cool, and they're going back to old fashioned photography. But I do think that it also shows, even though they didn't have iPhones back then, you know, there still was a sense of urgency in the fact that these photos were published the very next day, that was huge. That was credible.

Traci Thomas 9:35
I can relate, I think to like young people who maybe don't know this story, because when I read your book from a whisper to a rallying cry about the murder of Vincent Chen, I had never heard that story that had never come across. And that's the kind of thing that I get become obsessed with after I finish the book. I did like so many deep dives on like all these Google searches, like I was like down all the rabbit holes, but that's what I think I really love. about what you do is that you bring these stories that if you're from a certain community, or if you were born at a certain time are like cannon to your life. But if you weren't, it may be never has crossed your mind. And it's like, these stories are important too. And not every. Not every event that we learn about in schools, or not every person we learned about in school is the whole story. And like, it's just such a good reminder. And I'm curious sort of how you decide what you want to write about how you knew you want to talk about Vincent Chen, or how you knew you wanted to write about the uprisings?

Paula Yoo 10:33
Well, that's a really great question. And thank you so much. I think what it is, is I want to write stories that haven't been told before from communities whose stories have been erased from voices that have been silenced. Because we always hear about these events from the majority default mainstream white point of view. We don't we don't do the Koreatown burning down in the Korean American community during the United united to La uprising. Our story was basically as a sidebar, we weren't, we weren't the main characters. We were we were minor supporting role characters, when the there was a disproportionate percentage of the $1 billion in damage over 47% was in Koreatown disproportionate, yet nobody ever talked about us, you know, we were just a sidebar, we were brushed aside, but we were a very important part of that story. And with Vincent Chin, I knew about him in college, because the documentary Who Killed Vincent Chin had come out. And I remember being shocked and horrified and also fascinated by the story. So when I choose these topics, I think to myself, What would I have wanted to have read back when I was a teenager, so that I wouldn't have to learn all this stuff after I graduated from school. You know, it's a shame that Generation X, Asian American Pacific Islanders, like myself, we had to go to the library after we graduated from high school, after we got our free public education, you know, I had to spend money to learn about my own history. And so that's kind of why I read these books, because I wanted to say, hey, there's another side, that deserves to be told. So that's why I choose stores that I do. And I think also too, aside from just the fact that I do focus on Asian American history, you know, because I want to fill a void. It's, it's also just emotional. For me, it is about character and emotion, emotion, emotion. So at the end of the day, actually, none of these people that I write about, they don't have to be Korean American or Chinese American, or, or an anyone of Asian descent, they could be any other character, because it's what moves me. And it's about the universality of our human experience. And as people of color as black and people of color and Asian AAPI people were raised to live in both worlds in this country. You know, we kind of we kind of straddle the gap in both worlds, you know, they talk a lot about code switching. But other people don't have to do that. So they don't know how to code switch like we do. And it's a shame because what that means is the other half, they don't see our stories as universal because they were never taught that our stories are universal. So by doing these stories, I hope I remind people that you don't have to be Korean American or black to read my book about the LA 1992 uprising. You don't have to be Chinese American to read about Vincent Chin, you can be any, whatever you are, you can relate to this, because this could have happened to you.

Traci Thomas 13:22
Yeah. Well, I want to ask you a little bit about sort of the relationship between the black and Korean communities. Because in the book, and you know, just in the history of the story, we have the, we have the murder of Latasha Harlands, that happens in 1991. And she is killed by a Korean chop owner who there is an altercation. There is a killing. And there is a very unjust sort of legal proceeding that happens afterwards. And that is sort of I think people will talk about like as the kindling to the fire that ends up becoming the 1992 uprisings. In addition to that, you know, a lot of the damage takes place in Korea Town, as you've mentioned, there's a lot of like, stoking of the fire by white mainstream media, specifically the LA Times, but I think broadly, just mainstream white media. And I want and then we flash forward right to summer 2020 2021. And we have the stop AAPI hate, and we have the Black Lives Matter movement. And we sort of have this like tension in these two communities, again, in a way that feels like public. And I'm curious sort of your thoughts on like, where are we now? I know, there was the black Korean alliance that you talked about in the book that sort of disbanded after these events, for multiple reasons. But I'm sort of curious, like, what what is this vibe between the two communities specifically here in LA, but maybe broadly nationally? What's your sense?

Paula Yoo 14:58
How much time do we have?

Traci Thomas 15:01
So I know that is sort of a tough question. But I think it's important to all of this.

Paula Yoo 15:05
I know, it's an important topic that deserves not to be a soundbite. So I'm going to take my time, as I explained. So going back, one of the things is, you know, they talk about, oh, there is, is there anti blackness in the Korean American community, the Korean community, and also other Asian American communities and also Asian countries? Of course there is. But that's because of white supremacy and systemic racism. And you think about the the majority, the plethora of anti black images that have been perpetuated throughout popular media that influence you know, how, you know, black lives are portrayed on screen in the news, you know, disproportionate amount of negativity of stereotypes. So you have that. But having said that, growing up, even though I and my family saw a lot of negative media, we never, we were smart, we're like, Okay, this is stereotypes, I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, there are plenty just for people, for as many people that get influenced by this and become anti black or prejudice. They're just as many if not more people that say, wait a minute, you know, I'm a little suspicious of what's going on here, about what I'm not going to be spoon fed this. So we have to remember that there is another proportion of, you know, our communities that don't believe the hype. And it's the same thing with the black community. There is a lot of is there anti Asian xenophobia? You know, is there yellow fever, as we call it, you know, in the black community, just like it exists in the white community. Of course, there is because a lot of times, you know, all anyone ever saw was Bruce Lee, or submissive Asian of the Oriental submissive woman in medium. So that would influence both the black and white and all non Asian communities to think of our communities in a certain negative light as well. So you have so already, you've got this awful mess, this foundation that's already very shaky. And then on top of it, what people never talk about is the positive stuff. The fact that Asian Americans marched with the Black Panther Party in the 1960s. In fact, the Asian American, the term Asian American was coined in Berkeley, by radical students in 1968, to support the Black Panther Party, and that was considered political term for college radicals. And today, because of Vincent Chin in 1982, it became a mainstream talk topic. And I know that the language is always evolving. So now we have Asian American Pacific Islander A we have many different, the term is always evolving, but Asian American itself, by definition is actually just a political term. You know, it's to say that we believe in promoting our issues and our community and to fight against anti Asian racism. But also we are here in solidarity for the black community for all different types of communities. So you have that. And then you also have other stories that are so fascinating things like i There's a place in the Delta, Missouri, I think it's Missouri, there's a Chinese American and black American town that's been around for centuries, that people don't know about, where they all kind of grew up together, because they were all ostracized from living in white towns. So you have these communities. And, and I even talked about it with the black customers that loved their Korean store owners and protected their stores. You know, I interviewed Korean Americans store owners and Korean immigrant store owners who had barbecues for their black customers, they didn't follow up those themes, I'll think they didn't follow them around the store thinking that they were going to steal something, you know, so So basically, I think what I'm saying and forgive me it's, it's, it's a hard topic, white supremacy, systemic racism, racist images, perpetuated the media, yes, that can influence people to be anti black or anti Asian, but it's not an excuse. Yeah, do better, be better learn better, you know, don't be spoon fed this stuff. You know, having said that, the coverage is you talked about through the national media, especially the mainstream white media. It's a sexy story, you know, that cut conflict sells, and it's much easier. And it's also lazier for newspapers and the media to focus on Oh, hey, the blacks can't stand the Koreans, the Koreans are prejudiced against the blacks. Let's let's just focus on that. Instead of examining the elephant in the room, which is systemic racism and, you know, decades of oppression through racist housing covenants, food deserts, highways, that split, you know, middle class black neighborhoods, the fact that Korean immigrants were coming here from the war not aware that they were entering a country that was also in a civil war with the DMZ actually being the 10 freeway splitting rack and they were entering another combat zone they were not even educated about. So you see how hard it was for me to even encapsulate all of that. Yeah, why would why you can't put that in a headline much easier just to blame our communities and write some sensationalistic media which the LA Times To their credit and many other newspapers of the record apologized in 2020. During the Black Lives Matter, protests, you know, the LA Times published a mia culpa saying, hey, let's look at the history of racism, and how we covered communities of color and how we vow we promise to do better. And here are the steps that we're doing to be more accountable and to include more diverse coverage, you know, so I do think that we are making improvements you know, you have, we have new information in my book, The Harlands family has been working with the Korean church because there's a Korean church tapestry in downtown LA, they started a program called Convergence, where it's a think tank, where they're helping develop and nurture and mentor black business owners, you know, to with experienced veterans in the business community to help mentor them and shinies Harlands, who is Latasha Harlands cousin, ended up getting accepted into the program. They didn't know she was applying, they didn't know about her history. She just had a fantastic application. And we were like, This is great, let's, let's bring her into the program. And coincidentally, they paired her up with David Lin, whom I interviewed in my book, he is a business entrepreneur and advocate. He does a lot of mentoring for business owners. And coincidentally, in 1992, he volunteered to help clean up the streets of Compton and watts, watts. And Koreatown, after the riots, rioting and looting, and protesting and violence had ended. And so I interviewed him and then he was mentoring this program. And who happens to be his mentee who was assigned to him with Tasha, her Harlands cousin. And they had no so so. And the reason why I bring up such specific stories is because we can talk statistics, we can talk about rebuild LA, there's still parts of Compton and watts and parts of South LA that are still just as devastated as they were in 1992. You know, that's still a problem. We've got to work on that. I can talk about statistics and all of that. But to me, what's more important is it's one seed that plants a crop. So it's David and should use getting together. You know, it's not just all these activists that are working together. So it's the personal stories. So that's what I focused in my book. It's that because it really is it goes down to the grassroots personal relationships, because it because I hate to say it, our system is still broken. We have a broken justice system. You know, we have our media is trying to scramble to make up for decades, if not centuries of not enough diversity, equity inclusion in their newsrooms, you know, we can talk about that as well. Later, because I do want to bring I do want to talk about that. And just going back to the justice system as well. When we talk about what happened to Vincent Chin and his killers, his killers, pled guilty were found guilty of manslaughter, but got away with just a few years probation and a very minimal fine. Same thing happened to Sinjar do who shot and killed Latasha Harlands. I do want to say something though.

I just did jury duty a couple of weeks ago. And one of the things they say is you're not there to judge the actual defendant, you're there to judge whether the prosecutor did their job in proving beyond a reasonable doubt that this person is guilty. So then you think if the responsibility is with that prosecutor, and then the responsibility goes to the judge who makes the sentencing, you're now dealing with a system of mostly male, mostly white back in the day, and even today, there's more diversity now, but it's still a majority white male default system. You know, you are asking people like this to mete out judgment and Fair Sentencing and judgments. So at the end of the day, it was Judge Charles Kaufman, who said, You know what, Ronald Devens and Michael nets they've never broken the law before. I feel mercy for them. This is why I'm giving the sentence you have with some judges and Latasha heartland, you have a white woman, Judge George Carlin say, You know what, $500 fine to cover funeral costs, and just a few years of probation, and in fact, had Latasha survived maybe she would be here on trial for attacking Mrs. Do so Mrs. Do never said that. In all fairness. What was interesting about that trial, was that race was never a factor. I read all 500 pages of the court transcript. It was it was about it was technically about the gun. The fact that it was it had been she was a gun that had been stolen and the trigger had been shaved down so it was a hair trigger. Mrs. Do didn't know how to handle a gun. You know, we also have, you know, Latasha harlots, innocent, just that she's a child. She's 15 years old, she she's tried to protect her cousins, she needs his backpack. So you know, if you've grown up with a stranger grabs your family members back PAC you know, they usually know what it's scary, you know? And so this judge is putting her lens, her perspective, her confirmation bias. So Mrs. Do didn't say I only want to pay $500 And I don't want to serve jail time, Mrs. June admitted remorse, Ronald Eden's admitted remorse, you know, these are human beings. And not once did the do family ever say anything negative or racist against the black community? Did they follow a lot of people around? You know, were they suspicious? Yes. But people don't understand that. There were, I think they had gotten robbed at gunpoint 30 times that month. They were traumatized. That's not an excuse. But you have to understand what led to that type of traumatic PTSD behavior, you know. So So basically, I think what I'm saying is that we have to look at the justice system, you know, and also the other thing I want to say was emphatically and shinies. Harlands told me this, Latasha Harlands, and the children and the Harlands family, they were not anti Asian. They were not anti Korean. In fact, there was another store they went to, that was owned by a Korean couple that they love. They went there all the time. The only reason Latasha stopped by Empire liquor was because it was all the way home. There was just a horrible coincidence. You know, she normally went to the other store. So it was never about, you know, they never once said that they hated Koreans. The do family never once said they hated black people. But the judge the judge, a white woman made it about race.

Traci Thomas 26:35
Okay, I do want to come back and talk about the media. I want to start with where you kind of led us to about the LA Times and their mayor culpa, what have they actually done since anything? Or like, are they actually still working towards that? Or is this another sort of casualty of the 2020? I'm so sorry. We're racist. We'll do better and then nobody checks back in?

Paula Yoo 27:03
Very good question. And I will say, I am a former journalist I wrote for the Detroit News, The Seattle Times People Magazine, you know, and I have a lot of friends at the end. In fact, I actually just spoke at the Los Angeles Times festival of books that have Yes, a wonderful together, ya know, so much fun. So So I do think the LA Times for that. What happened was I want to take a step back and go to 1965. During the lox rebellion, the mostly white mostly male newsroom at the LA Times realized, Oh, we don't have any black reporters. So they found a man, a young 24 year old black man named Robert Richardson. He worked in advertising. They said, Hey, here's a notebook. Can you go to watts and Compton and tell us what's going on? So he no training, nothing went out there. And he would file dispatches he would go into the ancient telephone booth, and call the LA Times newsroom and tell his stories. He would say, Okay, this is happening. This is happening. And he was the reporter that heard people shout, Burn, baby burn, which was the famous battle cry that was happening at watts during that time. So he's responsible had he never gone out there. We wouldn't reach mainstream. The black newspapers knew the black owned radio stations. They knew about Burn Baby Burn, but the white mainstream media didn't know about that. So he then was promoted to reporter trainee. And you know, and this was something that the LA Times learned, they realized, oh, we need more diverse voices to help us cover future events. Now, I do want to say with Robert Richardson, the very sad thing was he had a very difficult life. You know, he was battling alcoholism, he ended up dying at a very still very young Oh, in 2000, he passed away from an asthma attack. And when the LA Times won the Pulitzer for their 1965 coverage of the Watts rebellion. He didn't want to attend the ceremony because he felt he didn't deserve it. And think about that. Think about the system that caused him not to have pride in being a groundbreaking reporter. Yeah, so let's flash forward almost 30 years later, it's 1992. Same thing is happening. There was one full time Korean American reporter named John H. Lee. He was in the San Diego bureau. They said can you drive up as fast as you can? So he drives up his mom's car you know, he's calling his mom who's listening who's glued to radio Korea giving him the story tips eight oh, on Korean radio, they're saying this you know, and he's so his mom is a de facto reporter as well, right? Because and then he on one Kong who won the Pulitzer Prize for taking photos of Koreatown and of the what was happening in Los Angeles. He also kind of became a reporter he was a photo journalist and was in charge of editing photos. He was in the South Bay office he to kind of became not just a A photographer but a journalist. And then they all went to the editor's office and said, We need more Korean people who can speak the language and can help translate. So the LA Times at the last minute had to recruit and fly down. Kay, Connie Kang and influential she was the first Korean American journalist in America in the early 1960s. So we had to basically import her from San Francisco to help and then she got hired full time. And they said, so then they realized their mistakes. So she's she wrote many award winning articles about the Korean American community. And she sadly passed away recently as well. So that was the mistake there, you know, so they, but you think they would have learned from 1965? They still, they still dropped the ball. And now you have 2020. And one of the statistics from the American Society, newspaper editors is that today across the country, 3.4% of newsroom employees are black 3.4%. I don't know what the new statistic is now, but I don't think it's jumped up that much higher. So yeah, and and I think the statistics are very similar for Latino for, you know, for indigenous native American and Asian AAPI reporters. So the numbers are still really small. We've made progress, but we still have a long way to go. And I thought the mayor culpa that the Los Angeles Times wrote was beautiful, thorough and magnificent and important that they did that. And I admire them. It was it was an act of courage. However, they recently had layoffs. And ironically, a lot of the people that were laid off happened to be black and people of color, younger reporters. And I do want to say I do want to take a step back and say, I do want to acknowledge the LA Times had magnificent, wonderful, nuanced coverage by John H. Lee, and other reporters who were freelancers that highlighted pause during 1992 that highlighted positive moments between the black and Korean American community. So for all the racist coverage that the LA Times did that sensationalized and fanned the flames of conflict between the black and Korean communities. They also did publish a lot of really great articles, but I think it was too little too late at the time. And the thing about journalism is that it is an apprenticeship. You learn and grow as a journalist, from your editor for the veteran, I have learned and grown and become the way I hide from the older people that shepherded my way through. So the problem now is with the economy with layoffs, most of the younger, newer Dubey reporters, you know, the rookies are people of color. So they're the first to get cut out. And that's a problem, because we're not nurturing them and bringing them up.

Traci Thomas 32:40
And if they're freelancers, they don't have relationships with editors, because they work all over the place. So it's not like you're constantly submitting to the same person getting feedback, learning, getting tips, you're going from newsroom to newsroom, maybe you do a piece or two here, a piece or two there. But there's not that building up of skills and abilities.

Paula Yoo 33:00
Yeah. And then you end up making the same mistakes, because no one sees it, because people need to see a pattern. And yeah, so So ultimately, I do think we've made a lot of progress. I do think there's much more diversity behind the camera, you know, behind the typewriter, right. But we still have a long way to go. And as a WGA. member, I was on strike last year for several months. And I'm seeing a contraction in our industry as well, especially for diverse screenwriters. So it's a concern across all industries.

Traci Thomas 33:31
Yeah. Okay, I want to talk to you about the stories we didn't get, because we were getting these mainstream, flawed stories. And one of the stories that we really don't hear about is what was going on in the Latin X community at the time. Obviously, your book is focused on the Korean American community that is really your lens through this story. So you don't spend a lot of time on that. But I'm curious, like, Are there good resources? Or is there good, like writing about what was going on there? Because I know that you know, I know LA, I know that there is a huge Latinx community. I actually read a novel called all involved by Ryan Gaddis. That's about the about 922 It's a fictionalization. But it centers some Latino guys who are they're doing it sort of like the purge, they're doing like a revenge killing of a of another gang member because the night before in the book the night before, April 28. One of their own had been killed. So it's sort of like they're going out in all of this chaos, to like avenge the death of their friend. That's the premise but that book has always put the Latino experience like kind of in my mind since I read it because I'm and because the coverage was so black, verse Korean. And also, weirdly, the white perspective is missing oftentimes in this story, right? Like, it's it's a weird thing, because usually the white perspective is very clear. Like this is what's happening to white people right now. Like it's none of their business, but like, let me take you to Beverly Hills and let you know. So I'm kind of wondering in the work that you did, what you did see about mainly the Latin X community, but also like we were just at USC, and I'm thinking, What were these kids feeling when all of this is going around? Because that's sort of like an island of white wealth in the middle of South Central LA St. Or South LA, as they call it now?

Paula Yoo 35:22
That's a great question. And I do cover the Latino Latinx community in my book. What I did was I also wanted to, I wanted to humanize all the communities and I told you earlier that I focus on personal stories. So one of the one of the stories I highlighted was the night before, Edward JSON Lee was killed, and he was called his nickname was Eddie, another Eddie was killed the night before Eddie travels, he was only 15 years old. This was he actually was alert, he was learning trying to get his driver's license. So he went out to drive to practice his driving and he was shot. And and he died. It's the most heartbreaking story. So I used his story to also talk about the youth, the Latino Latinx youth that were caught up in the crossfire as well. And the other thing that I focus on is the stereotypes of the Latinos because they were often referred to as looters. Oh, and all you ever saw was a Mexican American man, or, you know, a Latino person carrying a giant TV set, or a bed or something out the door. And the thing is, is that that actually was not what was happening. That's a great sexy photo for journalists, for clickbait, you know, it sucks clickbait. But at the end of the day, the majority of the Latinos, the Latino community, they they needed baby formula, they needed diapers, you know, they needed water, they needed food, they needed milk. This was a matter of life and death, because everything was shut down. And they were terrified. And we did not honor that. And instead, the media said, Oh, they're looking at these quote, unquote, forgive me for saying these words. Looters thugs, you know, look at these gangs. They were immediately stereotyped, these were fathers, these were mothers, these are terrified grandmothers running out there getting basic supplies necessary for survival. So I talked about that. And then I talked about how, with the Latino community, I think they were starting their their community grew into parts of South Los Angeles and also in Koreatown. So I talked about how today, you know, you also have a huge El Salvadorian, you know, Guatemalan community, in Koreatown, also, in Compton, and you know, it's, it's talk about that growth as well. And, you know, so I quote, a lot of professors and other people about what was going on. And one of the most beautiful stories was there was there was a Guatemalan immigrant who was caught at Florence in Normandy, and a black preacher rescued him. And the two became best friends. The black minister had been in formerly incarcerated. And he became a very famous minister who advocated for, you know, prison reform. And, you know, it was looked up to a lot by the community. He sat, he very tragically died of leukemia the following year, and they were supposed to go back to the the young man's country, they were going to go back to Guatemala. So they ended up he ended up going to his funeral instead. So I mean, these are the types of stories I wanted to highlight, again, to show that we also have the same stereotype Oh, Latinos are anti black, you know, you know, there's there's black gangs against, you know, the Mexican gangs, street gangs and things like that. And that's not the case. This was a beautiful friendship that formed. Yeah, just so. So I think that, like the Korean community, the Latino that next community had a very, very similar parallel issue that was going on as well with the Korean community at the time.

Traci Thomas 38:56
I want to talk about sort of how you as a writer approach telling these stories, are there things that you because you're writing for a younger audience, obviously, you have to take that into account? What is their what, what information do they already have? Like? How much teaching do you have to do? How much explaining versus how much like, do you present the information? You know, in the scenes, where we're dealing with Rodney King and the police officers who beat him? You present officer testimony? And like, how much were you thinking about? Okay, I need to explain why this isn't like what this person said shouldn't be taken at face value, or how much do you trust that your readers will understand what Stacy Kuhn said, it's fucking bullshit. You know what I mean? So how are you thinking about that as an author, especially knowing that your audience might not have, you know, years of experience of bullshit cops or like years of experience of racism, right?

Paula Yoo 39:53
Yeah, that's a great question. I think part of it is because I'm a screenwriter and a novelist as well. because I've sold novels and write for TV, I tend to approach things very cinematically and like a novel. So I love book. And so I would love open book ads. And to me the mic drops or the book ends. So I set up something at the beginning. And I trust the reader, no matter how old they are, or how young they are, they can follow the through line and see where the mic drop is later. And the other thing too, is you have to be careful as a nonfiction book author, and as a journalist, whether or not you're writing an article, an adult nonfiction book or something for young adults, or for children, like with my children's picture books, I cannot editorialize too much I can't come in and say, by the way, this was bullshit I need I need to let the words speak for themselves. It's a very fine, it's, it's it's a fine line, because if I editorialize too much, then I lose the integrity of the truth and the reporting and allowing the reader to be, for example, the Vincent Chin book, you know, I had to walk a very careful line because I wanted the reader to be a jury member, would they have would they have voted guilty or not guilty. And so I hoped with the context and the structure of how I told that story. The I gave enough from the defense point of view and the prosecuting point of view that I trusted that the reader would walk away with a fair and just idea of how they would vote on the imaginary jury they were on. Same thing with the jury of the readers reading the coverage of the LAPD brutality being case of Rodney King, a lot of it was through structure, because when I read the transcripts, I was screaming and waking up my husband in the middle of the night, because I'd be working till two in the morning. And so one of the things I did was when you read my book, and you look at the structure in the book and said that I do you actually do hear the poly you editorial, or at least you can hear me it's about show don't tell. So for example, in my book, there's a moment where officer Powell, Lawrence Powell describes that he was scared to death on the night of March 3 1991. He said, Rodney King was a big man, very powerful arms. And he actually basically talked, he used animal imagery. So Terry White, the district attorney said, Rodney King, he deserves to be treated like a human being, didn't he? Yes, sir. He wasn't an animal was he? And then Powell said, No, sir. Just acting like one. Now if I step in and say that is inherently racist, that that is, that is such a terrible thing for me to say, we lose the power and shock. That said, I no matter how young you are, you know, we are raised from the from Burleigh. Hopefully, not everybody is and that's a tragedy. That's a whole other podcast. But hopefully, hopefully, if you are in a loving community that raises you to be compassionate, empathetic, you're empathetic towards all living creatures, whether it's animals, human beings, insects, whatever it is. So my reader knows that was not cool what he said. But the way I editorialize and provide context is if you go several pages later, and you have Terry White is doing his final arguments for the jury before they have to go into seclusion to decide whether or not the LAPD officers are guilty. And he actually loses his emotion. He gets upset, and he starts screaming at Lawrence Powell. And he says, you know, he laughed. He's denying it. And he had to be ordered back. They said, Mr. White, you know, you You're out of line. So then Terry White apologizes. But then he says this, he goes, White did not apologize. Terry White did not apologize for his anger directed at Lawrence Powell. And the quote that he says is they treat him like an animal, yet, the defending of law, the defending attorney, Michael Stone does not want me to call his client Lawrence Powell a thug, because when he did say you're a thug. The other attorney was like, objection can't say that. But yet, didn't we read earlier that Powell could say, oh, Rodney King was acting like an animal. I just I still gasp I feel horrible. Even saying that out loud. Oh, it's horrible. Right. So then, Terry White ends his his argument with he tells Lourdes Powell, you are not a thug. But you are acting like one, just like Mr. King wasn't an animal. But he was acting like one. And I think it's important for teenage readers to then now you know, how they feel right? About what what Powell said earlier? Because again, so that's how I contextualize and editorialize sometimes, you know, because less is more, I think, in terms of laying that out. And also to I think with these books, I'm trying to teach teenagers how to read at a higher level. Yeah, how to read. It's about reading comprehension. It's about critical thinking skills. It's about analysis. I'm not going to spoon feed you everything. Just like I don't want to be spoon fed stuff.

Traci Thomas 44:54
That's why I love your book so much, because even though I'm not necessarily your target audience, I don't feel like I'm being spoken down to, right. Like, there's not very much in this book that I didn't know broad strokes, right? Like, I know, I knew all that a lot of the names, I was familiar with a lot of it. Because this also is like what I call, you know, that meme, like the Roman Empire thing where it's like, men think this is my empire. Oh, I think about the Watts, I think about the 1992 Rebellion. Too often. So like, for me reading this, I wasn't surprised, like, I was yelling at my husband. When we were doing the cart with Judge Joyce Carlin, I was like, I literally can't believe when I'm about to read next. But there I do not ever remember a time not knowing about this story. And yet still, it surprises me and upsets me. But I think because you treat your reader with so much respect. And you say you're smart enough to figure this out. And you don't talk down to them. That while this is a book aimed at children, me, an adult who feels very familiar with this stuff, feels like this book is safe for me to read to and I'm not going to be annoyed or patronized by you. And I think that's just so important. Because I truly feel like this is the kind of book that I would have liked as a young person, because a lot of the reason you know, I didn't read YA stuff as a kid is because it didn't exist in the ways that I wanted to, but also because some of the stuff that did exist felt so like juvenile, right? Like, I'm a teenager, I want to be an adult. I want to read about adult things.

Paula Yoo 46:15
Oh, no, I appreciate that. I do want to add that as Korean American woman to there and when you are a black or Korean American or writer of color, there is an extra burden on us to be real. Because here's the thing, you know, if I editorialize too much would it be like oh, she's on a soapbox. I don't trust me because she's cautious to say this because she's she's Korean. I mean, to give you an example, when the Atlanta spa shootings happened in March of 2021. A lot of Korean American reporters and Asian American reporters were not allowed to go cover it because they were told, Oh, you might let your personal biases get in the way and you'll be too sensitive and you will write something objective or fair. And I'm simply going, you never say that to white reporters when they go to report on a white, a white mass shooter, right?

Traci Thomas 47:08
Or even like the way we saw reporting on Trump, they said the same thing to black people during the lead up to Trump. You can't cover Trump because you're too bias. It's like, well, no, he's just super racist. That's not my fault. I can I please still cover it.

Paula Yoo 47:22
Yeah, exactly. So there's an extra burden on us in a way to prove that, no, we're not being but then, at the same time, you can tell the way I actually do editorialize, is when you read the author's note to the Vincent Chin book, from a whisper to a rallying cry, when you read the author's note for rising from the ashes. You know, how I feel, that's, that's my editorial might drop, I can be free in my author's note to talk about my personal journey, you know, so once I do that, and at that point, the reader trusts me because they're like, Okay, she didn't pander. She didn't present a biased or, you know, specific angle, and now I get to see how she feels. So it's a little bit like I'm having a conversation with the reader. Hey, here's how I felt after I read and wrote what I did. How about you?

Traci Thomas 48:09
Yeah, yeah, I'm so sad because we're like, so close to running out of time, but I could talk I feel like I could talk to you about this for like a week and not get bored or tired. But I do want to ask you about if there's anything that is not in the book that you wish could have been or wish could be?

Paula Yoo 48:25
Definitely there are there are several things. Everybody I talked to, you know, I interviewed representatives Andy Kim and Marilyn Strickland and their stories were amazing. Marilyn Strickland is a black Korean biracial Congresswoman. And of course, we know Andy Kim was the representative who was on his hands and knees picking up garbage at the Capitol building. They gave me wonderful quotes, but their stories about their lives growing up wish I could have included that. I also wish I could have included. The last two stories I will say is I was in Atlanta for a book event. So I went and visited all the SPAS where the killings happened. And I interviewed Robert Peterson who was thanked in the acknowledgments. Robert Peterson is the black Korean son of young AU, who was the eighth and final person killed in the spa shootings. His father is black and his mom was Korean. And we had lunch and he took me to all the spas. And we did a moment of silence and his story was so beautiful. And he talked to me about growing up, you know, in Atlanta and watching the riots when he was 13. And his perspective as a black Korean man was so moving to me and he has a tattoo of his mother's name and Korean with a cartoon of kimchi Chicky stew because that was their favorite meal that they used to make together. And I wish I had included that. And the final thing I will say is Seung Yong Chol was the Korean immigrant store owner who had to stay up all night with a gun defending his stall at the cotton market. And his famous quote to me was, America has let me down because he loved America. He came out here and American dream and he was so shattered after that. And what blew me away was after that he healed and he still loved America. He hiked all the mountains across America. He's an avid hiker, he hiked everywhere. He just was just so I still love America. And one year after I interviewed him, and this was in the early days of the pandemic, he died from COVID 19. So his family requested that I play my violin at his funeral. And because I'm a professional by what I'm not writing, I play weddings. I'm a professional freelance violinist. So I played audio, which is the Korean folk song. And it's basically fanatic of one day Korea will be reunited. And I also played his other favorite song. And I ended the service with the song which was John Denver's country road, because he loved that song. And to him, America was the lyrics from that song. So I wrote my book. And unfortunately, we had to take it out. But I wrote he is home. And I don't want to start crying. But those are those are there's many, many more stories I could tell you. But I think all of that and I do just want to add that talking with the Lee family, the way they had to relive their pain. Same with Latasha harlots, family. Same with the King family, you know, I could go back and play with my cats and move on with my life. I ruined their day, every time I had to talk to them, because I had to make them relive the worst moments of their lives. And I had to, you know, reintroduce them to their trauma. When I interviewed them, there was a lot of tears, a lot of joy and a lot of anger. And what I realized was they weren't remembering what happened. And the same thing happened when I interviewed people for Vincent Chin. They were reliving what had happened. And I also am the first person to interview the Man Who Killed Vincent Chin in 40 years since Michael Moore met him. So I met him in his home. And I will say that meeting everybody, and I will see with the Ronald evens Vincent Chin interview that I did. And with my experience with St. George's family, it made me realize that compassion, justice and anger are not mutually exclusive, I can be angry that justice was not served, I can be angry for what happened. And I can be angry for the depth, the law, the innocent lives lost of Vincent Chin, and Latasha Harlands. But it can also still have compassion and empathy. Because we are not defined by our last bad deed, we should not be, we should not be judged by the last bad thing we did. We shouldn't be judged by what we did afterwards. You know, and, and I will say that I did reach out to some judges family respectfully, several times. And they said no, because they want to protect their privacy, and they want to be at peace. And so I write about that in the book as well. And, you know, there are a lot of the things that will be unresolved for everybody on both sides, and it breaks my heart. So I think these these books are ultimately heartbreaking for me, but they also bring me joy. When I meet the the loved ones who are left behind. It's really my it's my love letter to the loved ones left behind and a love letter of solidarity between my Korean American family and community and the black community and their families. It just means it is an honor to try to write about both our communities. And I hope teens can walk away from that and learn that we cannot be in an echo chamber where all we do is talk about our own struggles. We have to be there support and listen to other communities as well. That's the only way we're going to make a step forward.

Traci Thomas 53:25
Yeah, we're going to do sort of a hard shift into the favorite stacks questions that are more about you and your process. The first one is you mentioned you right at two in the morning, or you were reading and working into in the morning. How do you like to write how often like music or no music, snacks and beverages? Can you kind of tell us about how you write your work?

Paula Yoo 53:45
Okay, first of all, I will say that behind me on our video screen are my closet doors. We recently had them remodeled. They are the three sliding glass doors and my husband had the brilliant idea of of frosting the glass. So I use it as my whiteboard. So I have so it's blank right now, but later it will be filled with my scrawls. Sometimes I wake up in the morning, and I forgot I've written on these closet doors. So it's like A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe.

Traci Thomas 54:12
Oh my gosh, I like that.

Paula Yoo 54:14
What did I write so so I have that that's how so basically, the way I write is I employ both journalism, novel writing, and TV, screenwriting techniques. So basically, for me, it is about character, emotion and voice. So oftentimes, I will just write from the voice of the character because I need the voice and I need the tone and the character. I'll do that for a little bit, basically free right. Then after that, once I've gotten the voice, I go back and I think about the idea and I go through a pitch process where I figure out the beginning, middle and end and I write and I go from the scribblings on my whiteboard or on my I also handwrite so I have these notebooks that I write in all the time I'll no one can see it, but I'll show you my little notebooks. Oh my gosh, okay. So little notebook. Yeah. And I carry with me everywhere. And you know, and then eventually I will eventually, it will all morph into a proper outline, and very detailed 10 to 1220 pages where I have two or three paragraphs describing what happens in each paragraph, right. And then I hit the ground running, and I start writing. And that's what I do. So a lot of my writing takes months to do. But once I start writing, it's like just several weeks, the actual writing goes by very quickly, and I tend to over I tend to over write in nonfiction, because it's better to have everything, it's better to have three quotes about one fact. And then I can go back and say, This is the best quote, then to add, you know, and I will say that my nonfiction tends to be very long, I will never tell anybody, especially my editor, because I don't want him to faint. But I will never tell anyone what the original word count was for the rising from the ashes, or the Vincent Chin book, but it was it was Lord of the Rings, like all three, it was, it was as long as the Lord of the Rings all three challenges. So that's so that's what I do. And I do want to say, too, that I never procrastinate because I don't believe in procrastination. What I believe in is when there are days that you don't want to write that it's a left brain, right brain thing. It's hard sometimes to write, so that I use the left brain, the analytical side. So if I can't write, I'll reread a book or I'll watch a TV show and study the structure. Or you know what I mean? So or I'll just rest my brain because it's instapot. It's it's simmering, on low on low for eight hours. So every day, even if I don't actually write, I'd go to bed happy knowing that I did write because I read a book or I took notes or I edited or I revised or I watched something similar to what I'm writing that inspired me.

Traci Thomas 56:40
Do you have snacks and beverages in your process?

Paula Yoo 56:44
Yeah, I have, you know, coffee. You know, once I start writing dough kind of the world disappears on us. So I actually don't eat it. Like there was a time when I was writing the LA book. I actually didn't eat or drink I think for like, 10 straight hours. It was my actually, my husband knocked on the door. He's like, he thought I was dead. He's like, are you okay? I'm like, Oh, it's 10 o'clock at night. So you know, but I tend not to eat while I write because I don't want to ruin my pretty keyboard. Yeah, so but I do I do take breaks. And when I do, I'll just make a snack and you know, chocolate or, or maybe a glass of wine late at night. I won't lie. And I'll walk and I always watch Food Network for some reason I have. I have to watch a cooking show.

Traci Thomas 57:27
I love that. Okay, what's the word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Paula Yoo 57:32
I placed third in the Connecticut State spelling bee. So there is a word that I can never- Oh, it's accommodate. That's the word, always.

Traci Thomas 57:47
Yeah. Too many frickin consonents. Okay, last question. If you could have one person dead or alive, free this book Rising from the ashes Who would you want it to be? Sort of a tough one.

Paula Yoo 58:04
You're gonna make me cry. Because I would want Eddie, Latasha and Glen to read this because I wish I wish I got to know them. I mean, my book opens. It's not a spoiler, but it opens where I write out their full names. I say meet, you know, Rodney Glen King. Meet Edward Jae Song Lee. Meet Latasha Lavonne Harlins. And at the end, I bookended, but I end with the names that they went by with their loved ones, which were Eddie, Tasha and Glen. So on my journey, I felt like I'd become I actually, at some point, I actually feel like actually hung out with them. That's how alive they became for me. I love Eddie, Tasha and, Glen, I love you very much. I love your families. And I hope you rest in peace and rest in power.

Traci Thomas 58:49
Thank you. So beautiful. It's okay. Everyone, this has been a conversation with Paula Yoo, Rising from the Ashes, as you're listening, is out now in the world. You can get it wherever you get your books. If you've got young people in your life, I highly, highly recommend it for them. This is again, like I said before a book that I wish I could have read as a teenager because I know I would have just loved it because I loved it as an adult. So that's that's a good indication. Paula, thank you so much for being here. This was a delight.

Paula Yoo 59:17
Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. And I really thank you for not only opportunity, but for what you all do in terms of advocacy for our young people. And, you know, for always promoting diversity, equity inclusion, which have unfortunately become Yeah, people have tried to turn them into bad words and they're not and I'm very, very proud of what you do. So thank you.

Traci Thomas 59:39
Thank you and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right. Well, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you to Paula Yoo for being my guest. I'd also like to thank Naomi Duttweiler for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember the stacks book Topic for May is No Name in the Street by James Baldwin. We will be discussing that book on May 29th with Yahdon Israel. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the stacks pack and subscribe to my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and tiktok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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