Ep. 329 What Does It Mean to Be Unseen with Mateo Askaripour

Written By Megan Caballero
Ep. 329 What Does It Mean to Be Unseen with Mateo Askaripour.jpg

Author Mateo Askaripour is back on The Stacks to talk about his sophomore novel, This Great Hemisphere, a work of speculative fiction about an invisible woman on a mission to solve a high profile political murder. Mateo explains how he built the book’s world - set 500 years in the future - and why he doesn’t think about genre with his work. We also discuss the performance of political discourse and how this book compares to his debut, Black Buck. 

The Stacks Book Club pick for July is Parable of the Sower by Octavia E. Butler. We will discuss the book on July 31st with Emily Raboteau.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and today we are joined by Mateo Askaripour to discuss his sophomore novel This Great Hemisphere. This book is a thrilling, futuristic story that follows a young woman who is invisible by birth and relegated to second class citizenship. She sets off on a mission to find her older brother whom she has presumed dead but is now the primary suspect in a very high profile political murder. You might remember Mateo when he was on the show for his debut novel Black Buck, and I'm so thrilled he's back again. Today we talk about genre, the limits and capabilities of science fiction and the challenges he faced along the way in writing this novel. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for July is Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. And we will discuss that book on Wednesday, July 31 with author Emily Raboteau. Quick reminder, everything we talked about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. All right now it is time for my conversation with Mateo Askaripour.

All right, everybody. I am so excited. I get to bring back a friend of the pod. His name is Mateo Askaripour. You might remember him from his debut book, Black Buck. He's back. He's totally flipped the script on all of us. He went from writing real life satire a little, I guess not totally real life but satire. Now he's giving us science fiction, futuristic and visible people and his newest novel, This Great Hemisphere. Mateo, welcome back.

Mateo Askaripour 2:58

Traci, thank you for having me. So honored to be here again, let's go.

Traci Thomas 3:03

I'm so happy you're here. You were I always talked about this. You were the first author who ever their publishers, publicist, reached out to me and said, You are the number one media outlet on my authors list. And I said who is your author? And she said, he's a debut. So I've never heard of this guy, but he can come on the show. Because flattery works with me 1,000% of the time, I now look at you you're back on your own merits this time.

Mateo Askaripour 3:33

And you know, it wasn't I wasn't even trying to flatter you it was just, you know, when I was working extremely hard to break in, The Stacks was one of if not the main book podcasts that I was listening to and I felt as though I was becoming acquainted with so many authors that I admired and respected and later on would actually be acquainted with the author, so it was a no brainer to try to be in conversation with you and I thank you for for giving lil No Name me years ago, a platform and being able to share space with you.

Traci Thomas 4:09

Well, I am a little no-name me, so it works out great where we were made for each other.

Mateo Askaripour 4:15

Listeners who are listening right now don't let Traci do that. Don't do that.

Traci Thomas 4:19

I love that. I got you all your friends though. You're welcome. Send me a free basket to thank me for introducing you to all your friends. Okay, we always start here in about 30 seconds or so. Can you just tell folks about This Great Hemisphere?

Mateo Askaripour 4:33

Yes, This Great Hemisphere is set 500 years in the future in a world where there are literally see through invisible people and also those with visible skin and who are part of the dominant population. We focus on Sweetmint, a young, Invisible Woman, who when the novel picks up, she is gaining an apprenticeship with the premier inventor in the land of the north western hemisphere. Three years before the book opens up her older brother had disappeared. Now she's trying to move past grief as much as anyone can. And then she finds out that the head of the hemisphere is murdered. And the chief suspect is her big brother who she thought had been gone or dead or killed or any of that. Now there's a manhunt looking for her older brother there is in an anti invisible, bigoted, political upstart running on a platform looking to find this invisible in five days, there is a member of the dominant population from law enforcement, who is also looking to find this invisible in five days. And then there's young, sweet mint, whom the entire hemisphere thinks nothing of who says no, I am going to find my brother in five days.

Traci Thomas 5:38

Yes, it is a murder mystery. It is science fiction. It is allegory, I would say. I don't know if you would say, but it's my show. So I'm gonna say, right, let's go. What I want to know is, where did you get the idea for this book?

Mateo Askaripour 6:00

Yeah, the idea was first born in 2019, from an experience that I had on the New York City Subway, um, I was sitting down, an older man and woman walk on, the man turns to the woman and asks her where she'd like to sit? And as he's awaiting her answer, he just turns in points directly in the area between my stomach and my chest. And he's just holding his finger there. And I'm looking around saying, you know, what, what is going on right now does this do not see that I'm sitting here are one of them about to sit on my lap, like, what's, what's going on, and they moved towards me. And then they just sort of shoved themselves in the half a seat or so beside me, you know, moving me out of my seat. And I went home that night. And as I'm lying down in bed, I was thinking about what had transpired and it wasn't a woe is me or moment of self pity. It was more so a moment of curiosity. Did this man actually not see me? Why did he point directly at me as if I weren't even there, as if in place of My presence was actually an absence? And as I began to ask more and more of these questions, the questions grew bigger. And they they took on the shape of fiction or fantasy. What if there were actually a race of invisible people? How do they become invisible? Are they revered as gods? Or are they subjugated or experimented upon? How do they live? How do they love? How do they laugh? Where do they live? What kind of community do they have? So as the questions just grew, and grew and grew, answers started to form and eventually those answers took the shape of this great hemisphere.

Traci Thomas 7:40

Okay, let's talk about the world building stuff. Because, you know, I think some of the themes in this book and blackbuck are similar, but the execution is totally different. It's totally different. Stylistically, I think I personally think that I can see so much growth in you as a writer in reading this book. Like, I, your voice is still you like, I still feel like I'm listening to you or like reading you. But your voice feels more deliberate. In this book, I would say like, I can tell that you are working as a writer and like changing and growing as a white writer, which is so exciting. For a person like me, who has, you know, sort of been in on the ground floor, right? Like, yeah, not the true ground floor, not the basement, not the foundation. But like since you've come on the scene, I've read your work, I followed you and like to read this was really exciting for me to be like, Oh, shit, Matteo is like doing something different. He's this is like, I can tell that you swung really big with this book. And I feel like to keep the baseball analogy going like your your swinging technique is better. Like you've been in the batting cages. You know what I'm saying? Like? Yes, yes, yes. And so I'm wondering, you didn't have to do a lot of the same kind of world building for blackbuck, because it was a world that you already knew. You didn't have to say, how do people interact with each other in this space? You say? Let me remember how I was interacted with in this space. So I'm wondering, like, for the process of creating the world, how that went for you. Was that exciting? Was that liberating to be able to build the world? Or was it like this? I bet off more than I can chew. I have to answer so many questions. I wish I was just writing about New York City.

Mateo Askaripour 9:25

Yeah, no, no, no point. And, you know, thank you for all of that. One of my hopes is that when people read this, if they've already read Black Buck, they can see that the scope is much larger, that the ambition was bigger, and that it was far greater of an undertaking. Yeah. So for you to be able to see that and recognize it. And you know, label it as as whatever, you know, something positive is meaningful to me. So I thank you for that. Yeah, at no point It was saying I wish I had written something else. I wish I hadn't bitten off more than than I could chew. And I wish that I was just writing another black book. This was extremely intentional and deliberate. You know, in 2020, I was on a rooftop of my friend, urban Weathersby, who has a book called an open contempt coming out in 2025. Nonfiction, where he explores art in public spaces, and through his own eyes in the eyes of his is history. Yeah, that's, if you've met any, that's my guy, right? So 2020, I was on his rooftop, and I was talking about black book and you know, black book was coming out January 2021. And I said, Herb, we're gonna we're gonna go hard on the salesman narrative. This is my world. That is the world that I come from, I didn't have to do any research. You know, I mean, here and there for black book, because, like, I didn't know about the different colored aprons and Starbucks, I don't even drink coffee. Right. So I had to do research. But but not heavy research in like, what does it mean to be one of the few or only people who look like you in the workplace? What does it mean to be almost crushed under the weight of of ambition, and following someone into the breach only for them to turn on you when they no longer view you as a human? But just as a vehicle of production in Brooklyn? I knew it. Right Manhattan knew it. The place that I set Black Buck in, I knew it. Sales, knew it. For this though. I was at the Bronx Book Festival maybe maybe a month ago. And someone asked Colson Whitehead about his process and about how he regards his work. And he said that if you're really pushing it, the work humbles you. And this work humbled me from beginning to end. Because I said, let me write this tale about, you know, people who are invisible 500 years in the future. And I soon realized how great of a task that was how, how gargantuan of a task that was. But at no point did I think about giving up. So to answer your question more concretely, I tried to write a short novel first didn't really work out, someone had read an early draft. And they said, this is like an outline, you need to build the world, you need to actually like go in and live into this world and understand what this world is and who these people are. So I began rewriting it. And after, you know, a second or third draft, the questions just began to pile up more and more and more they were, they were growing higher and higher and higher in terms of these invisible people, these people the dominant population, how they speak, what they eat, where they live, how they love the sounds, they hear the ways that they regard each other modes of transportation, health care, government, geography, right, the differences, the details, the nuances. And I said, Alright, I did not outline this, right. So it's not how I write. So because I didn't outline this, I had to stop after the second or third draft. And after they were completed, and open up a blank document, and just start asking all of those questions about all those categories and aspects that I just add many more that I just listed, and allowing the questions to flow the answers to come. And then after two days, I had a 7000 word document that became my guide for the rest of the novel. And it was iterated upon, but having that document allowed me to create a world that I could live in, hopefully, the reader would be able to live.

Traci Thomas 13:41

Okay, let me ask you, I want to stick with sort of genre stuff. And then I want to dig a little bit more into the novel, I we're not going to spoil this novel. And one of the things that I should just say to readers is that it's sort of a hard book to talk about without spoiling because the way that Matteo sort of unravels the whole book is like, there's a lot of revelation sort of early in the book that make the rest of it possible. So that that sort of synopsis you gave are like, this is how we find the book. That's pretty much all you guys are gonna get, because I don't, I would hate to ruin it for someone. That being said, I want to know about like, what you see as someone who's written their first sci fi book as sort of the power and maybe limitations of the genre.

Mateo Askaripour 14:28

I'm going to be completely honest. No, this is a speculative novel. In speculative novels intersect with sci fi, depending on the amount of science hard or soft science or theoretical science that's in there. As I was writing this, I wasn't looking at as a science fiction novel. Okay. I probably said the same thing about black book in terms of it being a satire, right? Like I just I recently came out with an essay via lit hub, about genre agnosticism, I don't think Think about genre for better or worse when I'm writing a book. Because I feel as though thinking about a genre, then, in my experience, right, there's people who go heavy, down a variety of lanes, and are very successful. However they deem success. They have a lot of readers, a lot of people who are impacted by their work, book to screen adaptations. It seems as though they're doing what they love, because many of these people are prolific, right? In my experience, though, thinking about a genre is going to pigeonhole my work. And it's going to pigeonhole what it can be. To me. There's other people who read it, right? Who needs to put it in these nice and clean and tidy boxes in order to be able to understand it, in order to be able to talk to a friend about it, or sell it right from marketing and publicity standpoint. But I wasn't writing this saying, Okay, this is a sci fi novel, it has to be extremely sci fi. I wasn't, I wasn't working backwards. I was working forwards from just this conceit that I told you about right? Of Sweetman and her brother, and this world, and looking to take myself and then later on the reader on a beautiful at times tough, but hopefully by the end worth it, journey. So in terms of sci fi, right, I, in my limited experience with interacting with people about this book, because it just came out a week ago, right? People who are far more familiar with sci fi, are far more flexible. When it comes to genre, when it comes to books that have different languages, when it comes to books that take their time to fold, when it comes to books that have characters with different names are different ways of seeing and you know, they're far more malleable, because that's what they're used to. If you read the three body problem, which I have, which is-

Traci Thomas 17:01

I would never- it's actual science. I'm like, hard pass.

Mateo Askaripour 17:05

Traci, it is dense with theoretical science. And I loved it so much, because it felt as though the author was like, Listen, this is just what it is. I am taking my time with this, I might even be using the first book to set up the trilogy. But I'm going to do what I want. Even if y'all don't understand half of this. It's this isn't sci fi. But it's what I loved so much about a lot of Percival Everett's, you know, earlier work, some of these works are incredibly hard to understand. Whereas James is extremely coherent and accessible in a way that some of his other works aren't. So, yeah, it's hard for me to answer the limitations of, of sci fi. What it allows you to do, I think, all of fiction, despite when it set whether it's 500 years in the future, like this novel, or more contemporary times, like black book, all of fiction, despite how it's being presented, if it is worth its salt, in my opinion, is going to reflect reality, or multiple realities in some way or another. And the realities, or some of the realities that this great hemisphere are reflecting is, what does it mean, to be seen, or unseen? In a place that you call home? Yeah, who? Or rather, how do you define power? Is it something that is given to you, or something that's innate, and you claim for yourself? These are all things that are extremely accessible and relatable, despite, you know, this being a novel set 500 years in the future?

Traci Thomas 18:43

Okay, so then let me ask you this, if you're not, which I understand that you're not thinking about genre when you're writing, because I do think that that can be limiting creative creatively. And also, some of the best writers that I know are like some of my favorite works of like, even like something like a memoir, they take the genre, and then they sort of subvert it in their own ways with their own styles and techniques, right, so that it's not like true memoir, or it's not true romance, or whatever. So I understand that. But I guess the question then becomes like, are you thinking about your work in a lineage of genre at all, like in conversation with others who have come before you? Are you looking at other speculative fiction novels and saying, I want to do that, but I want to put my own spin on it, or are you truly just like this is the story I'm telling. Mateos way and that other stuff is for the marketing team or that other stuff is for the books to grammars to talk about?

Mateo Askaripour 19:46

Well, love to the bookstagrammers, first and foremost.

Traci Thomas 19:53

My people! Talk about the invisibles of the book world!

Mateo Askaripour 19:59

I see them! I see you! And they know I do!

Traci Thomas 20:04

There are some connections to how they're treated in the world of your novel, they're definitely not the DPs the dominant population.

Mateo Askaripour 20:13

1,000%. I'm thinking about a lot of things right now. But I'm just going to answer the question. So, if the answer is yes, but it's a mix of of what you asked, right, I am telling the stories that move me that I want out in the world, that feel worth my time on this earth, to write and tell. And we'll hopefully be worth the time on this earth of the people who read that right. But 100% is my work in conversation with other authors. But it's not always going to be the people that you think this great hemisphere is in conversation with Adam Hochschild, who wrote King Leopold's Ghost.

Traci Thomas 20:57

I have not read that. But it's right behind me somewhere.

Mateo Askaripour 20:59

This Great Hemisphere is in conversation with Chinua chebe. And his Things Fall Apart trilogy, I was drafting this book, and I had read, things fall apart, and then more and more of his other works. And I said, Wow, this is so reminiscent in terms of Forest 26. And how I'm crafting this community of invisible people, which is that which is where sweet mint is where sweet mint or sweet mint and her forest folk are from within the forest region, which is one region out of many within the north western hemisphere, which is one of this hemisphere. That's what they say, but people have to read to actually, you know, see that for themselves. But I'm studying Chinua chebi. And I'm saying, okay, he's not defining so much in his work and in this community of people. And that gave me confidence. Of course, people who have read Octavia Butler, this great hemisphere is in conversation with her and her works. I don't think that this book would. I think that it would be I think that it would be far more difficult to have published this book without the work of Octavia Butler. Yes. And NK Jemison. Right. That's, that's that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And I know we're not here to talk about Black Books I don't need I don't need to go down that path of the the people are the works and black book is in conversation with but yes, my work is always in conversation with authors and just artists in general. But they might not always be who you think they are.

Traci Thomas 22:32

Yeah. Well, first of all, Octavia Butler's parable of the sower is our book club pick this month. So Wow. So for folks, because you know, it's set starts July 20 2024. And we are in fact, in July 2024. We're just a few days away from start. So that's why we picked it for this month. But I actually did read this book back to back with Parable of the Sower. And I do feel like it's there sort of in conversation also, just like with the young female protagonist, sort of like going out to to survive to figure out a way to move forward. I mean, they're, they're leaving their places for different reasons. And like, the circumstances are totally different. But that felt like it's super obvious parallel, especially when I was reading back to back like with him out, you know, I put parallel this hour down and immediately pick this up. So in conversation.

Mateo Askaripour 23:22

Traci, can I ask you a question? You brought up the many revelations in this novel, without spoilers, just what were your thoughts? On the many revelations when they were dispensed? Like, what did they make you think or feel about certain characters without naming them? Because I was looking to set the tone early? That no one and nothing is as it seems?

Traci Thomas 23:47

Yes, this is exactly what I want to talk about. Matteo has asked me a question, How dare he? About the revelations and sort of how nothing is as it seems in the book? So I don't know if I can answer your question without spoiling it for my audience is the answer. I just want to try to ask it of me in a different way.

Mateo Askaripour 24:17

Yeah. I'm trying to be spoiler free as well, Traci. But the fact that there were so many revelations from beginning to end was extremely intentional because I wanted to show the reader that no one and nothing are as they seem and to also question and further interrogate the nature of truth and the reality in the book and also in our own nation and world and beyond. A term like fake news has entered the lexicon, right? And it feels as though skepticism is the default more than acceptance or anything else today when it comes to just like news or revelations in the world. So I wanted to ask as spoiler free as it can be Did you like the fact that there were so many revelations? Like, did it keep you engaged and enticed?

Traci Thomas 25:04

I love a revelation, even from the beginning, like, I loved that. There's like a little prologue to the book. And, like, I love that I didn't really find out what the why the prologue was significant until, like, deep into the book, because I kept thinking, I was like, Okay, what was it-

Mateo Askaripour 25:22

If it didn't come back, you would have been tight, right?

Traci Thomas 25:27

I would have been, like, calling you like excuse me. So like those kinds of things like but I also liked really small revelations, like, just like about how the invisibility worked. And I liked, like, little like, there's a character who is the main inventor that has this great inventor. And I liked how he was sort of dropping the history of the place. And like, Yes, back in back when we took office like that I like to like, I really liked those, even those really small revelations. Also, because I'm not like a huge sci fi or speculative fiction reader, per se, and especially not future deep future. I will read some near future stuff more more, more regularly. But I don't like getting a lot of information. I don't, I don't want you to tell me everything upfront, and I liked that you sort of sprinkled things throughout. And I liked that the revelations go all the way until the last chapter. Second last chapter, we're still getting like new information. So I did really like all of that. Now, as your question about like, the fake news of it all. I went to your book event in LA last week, two weeks ago, people are listening. And someone I don't know if it was your moderator, or if it was someone in the audience. But they asked about, like, hope and how you're so hopeful. And I thought, Oh, what a nice question. And then I finished the book. And I was like, Matteo is so fucking sinister. This book is so cynical. I don't believe this book is hopeful at all, like, at all. And so I like I think you did, I think in my notes, I wrote down that person read a different book. This was a hopeful, deep fake. And I think like, I think you seem like a hopeful guy. You're very positive uptempo kind of person. But this book is commenting a lot on the performance of politics and the performance of state, like what it means to be a nation or a place, and the performance of the media and the performance of because there is like, you know, it is mirroring what we're seeing right now. Like there's an election though the election in your book is only five days. And I was like, What a dream. Could you imagine if we just started this shit on November 1, instead of starting it over 2023.

Mateo Askaripour 27:50

It's also all behind closed doors. But yes-

Traci Thomas 27:52

yeah, it's all behind closed doors, which, you know, say what you will. So, I guess to answer your question with a question as I am saying, I am cynical I like it. I like seeing things rendered on the page that feel real I hate hopeful endings. I hate hope not even things I hate just a hopeful like approach because we're recording this just a few days after a assassination attempt that people are qualifying as maybe an assassination attempt or was it was it really a bullet? Was it just a piece of glass who's behind all of this and I was reading this also this book as this is happening. And so I'm seeing on your page a version of our reality that I'm very grateful for, because I think the hopeful version of this book is annoying to me. So I don't know Do you think this book is helpful?

Mateo Askaripour 28:44

I'm going to answer what I think about but first of all, Tracy thank you so much, just for just for reading it in this manner and you know, speaking him out it speaking about it within the museum like it just like some music to my ears.

Traci Thomas 28:59

Flattery works with you 1000% of the time, too.

Mateo Askaripour 29:02

I have no reason to flatter you. I'm here.

Traci Thomas 29:03

No, I'm, I'm flattering you.

Mateo Askaripour 29:06

Oh, gotcha. I just respect energy. Right. And and it's evident in your tone. But anyway. It depends whether it's a hopeful book or not depends on the reader. It really depends on the reader. There are people who got to the end of black book, and thought that it was hopeful. There are people who got to the end of Black Buck and said, Why would you end it in such a dark place?

Traci Thomas 29:35

I got to the end of black buck, and I said, Hmm, I don't think I would have classified it as dark or hopeful. I think I classified it as like, Mateo is playing games with us, like, ah, like, I felt like that is when you come forward to me as like, there is a puppet master here. And that's actually the author. I don't I I wouldn't say that that book is a commentary on hope or cynicism personally, but-

Mateo Askaripour 30:04

yeah, yeah, well, well, with this great hemisphere. I believe that the ending can also be viewed in those two ways as well.

Traci Thomas 30:14

That just depends on do you think that you're an invisible or a DP?

Mateo Askaripour 30:18

Well, yes. And it depends on the reader. And I can't I can't expand on this more, because it'll be a spoiler, it would be too much of a spoiler in the same way that I can't expound on the ending of blackbuck too much because it would be a spoiler. But my intention behind both of those endings, were to just present a question to the reader and have them answer it on whether they believe what I've rendered on the page was positive or negative or hopeful or cynical, or this that the other? Because I am 100% Hopeful individual. I'm also a realist. And I think that hope, without reality is just delusion. And that does none of us a world of good.

Traci Thomas 31:03

Yeah. I mean, I think I wouldn't say that I'm probably also a realist, but I am, I tend towards pessimism and cynic, shorter coldness versus tending towards hope. But I do see the value in hope like I am, I admire the hopeful among us. And I try to attach myself to those kinds of people, mostly as like a buoy to keep me from like, going into the depths of my own cynicism. But I think like, I am on the I'm on a, it's a spectrum, hope and cynical. I'm definitely in the middle at realist, tending towards cynical. I do want to talk a little bit about politicians, because aside from sweet mint, all of our central figures are in the political tradition, whether that's in the church, whether that is like a adviser to a politician or a politician themselves, are central bankers or some other figures in the book, obviously, but but like, I do think of this as being political commentary and a lot of ways. As much as it's allegory around other things. I think it is really directly taking on politics politician and the performance of as I said, state, so I'm wondering, how were you thinking about that stuff? Were you thinking about current politics? Were you trying to mirror the things that you're seeing now? Were you speaking to a different political moment? Were you really just creating a political moment out of whole cloth for yourself?

Mateo Askaripour 32:34

Yeah, great question. I was thinking about a variety of times throughout history, not just this one. And I was thinking about the duplicitous nature of so many people who they are in public, and then who they are behind closed doors. What are their actual and true aims? If their goal is to attain power, why, and what are their plans for that power? And are their plans more personal, or more collective? Where do they stem from? And as I was rendering the North Western Hemisphere, again, I was thinking about a lot of times in places, I was thinking about various authoritarian regimes. I was thinking about the ways that I have perceived dystopias, right. So again, like it's not like I didn't think about dystopian fiction or dystopian films at all when crafting this. But I think you know, more. So I was I was contemplating the idea of a dystopia as we know it. And in that way, and this, I think, is answering one of your earlier questions, and perhaps contradicting partly what I said. But there are aspects of literature that I was looking to write a new, for sure. Right. So we know dystopias to be black and white, grayscale. Like it was just meant screaming. The forest where Sweetman and her forest live is full of light. It's full of life, it's full of growth, without giving away too many spoilers in the world of the dominant population. It's Technicolor, right? Not like their literal world, but things that they hold near and dear to them forms of sustenance, right, it's not black and white. We see a lot of color throughout this novel, and I wrote it in that way to present a contrast to the depravity and barbarity and savageness that is being wreaked upon the second class citizens left and right. So yes, I was thinking about politics. Next, was I looking to base the DEP political upstart who's running on an anti invisible platform on Trump? No. Like I wasn't people say, Oh, well, there's a certain orange hued politician that comes to mind when I read this book. I wasn't, I wasn't thinking of Trump. I didn't, there was like one, there was maybe one or two lines that I put in there. That sounded sort of Trumpy, and I liked it, right, where we're, we're Stefon jolis. The the political upstart is talking about another person. And he's like a good friend, by the way. I was like, Oh, snap, I've heard Trump hate those types of things, whatever, I'm gonna keep it in there.

Traci Thomas 35:40

But think of him as Trumpian at all, because I don't think that Trump is an original. Yes, you know what I mean? And so like, I think of jolis as being in line, and Washington actually both being in a lineage of a certain kind of politician, right. Like Trump does not exist as he is, he might be the first of a kind for us in this way with our current technology. Some people love him. Right. But like, Andrew Jackson was a monster and racist and a great speaker. And you know, like, there are other people like he is in direct lineage to Reagan. And I think that jolas seems like a much more universally well received politician in a way that Trump is polarizing. The way that he's presented on the page jolas feels like he's a bad dude, who is a crafty politician, right. Like we know those kind of like, I would argue, someone like a JD Vance is more in line with the jolis, like a real fucking monster, but someone that a regular regular and the establishment could get behind in a way that they're not going to get behind a Trump.

Mateo Askaripour 36:51

Personally, yeah, well, well, in terms of the North Western Hemisphere. And the fact that jolis was tight with the previous chief executive, you know, Rotel does speak to that. I think that in some ways, he is even more radical than those that have come before Him. And that he wants to increase the oppression of subjugation of the invisible population in the North Western Hemisphere and make it more akin to, you know, another hemisphere within the novel.

Traci Thomas 37:22

At the same time, Washington is like, presents a totally, I mean, progressive, liberal, recive liberal, like do goodie.

Mateo Askaripour 37:32

But we see we see his we see his hypocrisy and contradictions as well, right? Because for all of the good that Washington speaks of, and again, like no spoilers, he has his own concerning views of the invisible population, right. It's the same thing with someone like Leon Kurtz, who is a top hemisphere. He's the top cop. He's He's the director of the hemispheric guard, and he's the one who's looking for sweetmeats brother, sweet smoke. And he is this man who prides himself on being judicious on loving invisible people, right. But we see when push comes to shove the fact, ah, no spoilers, but we see who he actually is right? I believe that one of the most dangerous things is a desperate man. And we see a few desperate men in this novel, which is why-

Traci Thomas 38:20

I think every man in this book ends up being rendered desperate at some point, I want to do a hard shift because I want to talk about how you name your characters. I do want to tell you, so I started reading the book off the page, I read the first like, 200 Straight off the page. And then I was like, Let me listen to the audiobook. It was after your event, because I heard you say some of the characters names at the event. And I was like, That is not how I've been pronouncing that person's name. And so I want to know what you were doing with the names. Because a lot of the names are sort of ambiguous and pronunciation if you just see them on the page, and then I listened to the audiobook and then the audiobook narrator who is great. She did a great job. She was sort of hammered the pronunciations into my head, even though when I would go back to the book because I was going back and forth. For the second half, I was like, I've been calling him Joelease Joelease. I don't know.

Mateo Askaripour 39:14

Joelease sounds like he's a 90s rapper or something.

Traci Thomas 39:18

I was thinking he was sort of like, like, a French, like his family emigrates from the France hemisphere. And like, it's like, oh, we have this last debate. You know what I mean? Like I was just, I was giving people like, one of them is Stefan, but I was calling him Stephen for sure. I'm like, you know, Steph Curry. No, yeah. So I like they're just you know, are like 10 Moss, I was saying 10 Ma, say in my brain, because there's like II floating there. So like, you know, I don't know.

Mateo Askaripour 39:45

There's no accent but yeah.

Traci Thomas 39:48

I just read what I read. You know who that is to like you just read it.

Mateo Askaripour 39:54

And that's happening that's happening a lot with this novel. There are people who are hearing me speak about it. Or who are listening to the audiobook and they're like, brother, that's not how I was pronouncing it at all. And I love that.

Traci Thomas 40:06

Or like Shaunu versus Shaunoo. Shaun New Edition.

Mateo Askaripour 40:14

I love that. It's just like, print now and say how you will and if you hear a different pronounciation then you adopt that or not right? It's up to you. But um, the names of just about every single character were intentional and means something. There's a power in names and the power in the way that people are regarded and the fact that at least the invisibles have two names is one way to present intimacy, right. Who are they in certain spaces? How are they regarded? Who was allowed to see them in a certain way? Who would ever even see them in a certain way? Sanford, who is he's at Castle Tenmase he is Kroger Tenmase right, this inventor who who Sweetmint gains the apprenticeship with he's like a play nephew of him. Sanford? I don't think ever calls her sweet mint. Because that wouldn't make sense. I know her name. He doesn't know her like that. Right? And he's he's probably heard the name sweet mint, right maybe, or her referred to as Sweetmint. But he would never say that. So despite this man, trying to not give away any spoilers, saying, I know you. I see you. I know the real you. He doesn't even know to call her that name that she's been known as for the majority of her life. So yeah, that was part of the intention behind having these people have different names with some other characters. It's to play up their duplicitous nature, with some other characters. They were named named a certain way. Just for myself and my own intentions, and if ever anyone wants to do a deep dive into the names of all characters, which my French translator did the other day, you know that we can we can do that.

Traci Thomas 42:04

Do they call him Jolie in France?

Mateo Askaripour 42:07

You know what? I have to ask her. This was all over email. So I don't even know how she's pronouncing these names.

Traci Thomas 42:15

From the front from the north, north east hemisphere.

Mateo Askaripour 42:18

He sounds he sounds a little too upper crust for Jolis right. Jolis got it out the mud.

Traci Thomas 42:25

But that's why I thought it was like have like a Frenchie name because like, you know, there'll be those people. Yeah, super not fancy. But then they have like their last name is like McMasters. And you're like, baby no.

Mateo Askaripour 42:36

Wasn't that wasn't that in Kylie Reid's such a fun age?

Traci Thomas 42:41

Oh, yes. What's her name? Alixe, instead of Alex. Okay. Is there anything that is not in this book that you wish could have been?

Mateo Askaripour 42:55

So without giving away, There's a couple of things actually. And again, this isn't a tome. It's not the longest book ever, but it's not 200 pages. For for for about 400. Yeah, a little bit more. The book originally had three prologues. Yeah, it had three prologues? Yeah, that's three. And I got feedback early. Cut those other two out, you can't have three prologues. Right, which was God, someone? Yeah, it was it was a good decision. But the second prologue, I thought it was dope. It basically the book at first wasn't 500 years in the future, it was 1000 Until I realized that it didn't need to be and, and yeah, just didn't need to be. And the way that I was bridging how we get from today to 1000 years in the future, I was using these three prologues to get us there. And the second prologue was taking place in like, um, that one might have been like 2500, again, when the book was taking place in 3000, something and it was featuring a war between people with visible skin and people who were invisible or the invisible people were being used on both sides and, and these two men they weren't even called invisibles or DPS. At that point, they had different names. And it was a discussion between these two men on the nature of war and the nature of life. And just like the way that it ended, I really liked it, but that had to go. I might I might read from that one day just for fun after reading, and then there are the courtroom scenes. Or excuse me, the scenes in the gallery of rule, which is like a mix between a court and parliament. Yeah. All of those scenes were written out in great detail got in an early draft, and I really liked them. But I got feedback saying that we don't need all of these to be written now. out in detail.

Traci Thomas 45:01

That's so interesting because I that was one of my things. I was like, I wish we got more of those scenes. I loved the first one.

Mateo Askaripour 45:09

I had bunches of them. And then you know, when I got that feedback, they said, Well, why don't we figure out a different and more engaging way to render them. And when someone reads the book or listens to it, they'll see how those were rendered. But I really I really enjoyed those scenes, but, you know, some give and take, and I didn't think that it was going to drastically change the book by changing them. But yeah, those are, those are a few things that I that I enjoyed and could have kept if we had more space and all of that.

Traci Thomas 45:40

Okay, I went back and listened to our conversation last time, the second half because I wanted to know what you answered about your writing rituals and stuff. And I don't think I asked you what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try? Did I ask you? Do you remember? I don't remember if you didn't hear it. Okay. Well answer that question. In case I so because I gotta get you on the record with this.

Mateo Askaripour 46:01

A word that I can never spell on the first try. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm gonna-

Traci Thomas 46:12

I know. That's what happened last time. And we just cut out you not knowing.

Mateo Askaripour 46:16

But I'm going to tell you a short anecdote about a word though. So here we go. Yeah, and it's not like I'm the winner of like a Scripps Spelling Bee. I think that so many of us have become worse spellers because of autocorrect and typos and all of that. But with my former agent, the one who sold blackbuck, the one who sold this great hemisphere, whom I love dearly, but she just went in into a different career. For the longest time, I would type to her WOAH. And I could never spell it right. I didn't know that I was misspelling it. It's not W-O-A-H it's W H O A. And so many people write W O A H. And eventually she beat it into me.

Traci Thomas 47:09

Whoa, that's a huge surprise. Well, do you see that? I see it. But now I'm typing this and seeing what happens.

Mateo Askaripour 47:18

Okay, is it a British variant or something?

Traci Thomas 47:22

But it's saying the exclamation is W O A H. Wait, is it spelled Whoa, whoa, whoa, Mo are often confused. But whoa, who A is the correct spelling. It is used as an interjection to express alarm or a surprise. W O H A is a spelling variant considered wrong by most language authorities. Oh, so you're you're part of the language police.

Mateo Askaripour 47:45

Oh, I'm not. I got police myself. And so I didn't end up in jail. I started Yeah, I started to spell it W H O A and I'll just I'll never forget that.

Traci Thomas 47:58

Wow. You Learn something new every day. Okay. Do you still have a training poster of Muhammad Ali? Do you still want listen to and watch music videos before you write for hours? Do you still sit in an uncomfortable chair? Do you still eat waffles and drink yerba mate? Because this is what you told me. You did during black buck. You wrote Black Buck. It came out in 2021. We are talking three and a half years later. Is it the same routine? What has changed? You're sitting in front of the same bookshelf so I'm assuming you live in the same place.

Mateo Askaripour 48:35

Damn, you are fed talking about the cops. I feel like I'm being interrogated. I'm being interrogated, interrogated. So if I can answer the majority of those questions that I remember, I still have the the poster Muhammad Ali training above my workspace. I still drink yerba monta. I got it with me right now. You have a motto for sure. I do not eat waffles anymore. The waffle routine is gone. I realized that is there a new food routine. There is a new food routine. But I realized that my metabolism probably couldn't sustain eating waffles every day. Like you're probably wasn't the best. But in 2022, I switched it. And now I have two pieces of two eggs and a piece of toast. Boom. healthier, right? more streamlined. No, no, they're delicious. They're like Tumeric spiced eggs. They're not saying don't eat eggs. Oh, got it. Sorry to hear. I'm a vegetarian. I need to get my protein. The music videos and the movie trailers is no longer hours. It might be an hour I still watch them. But it's no longer like but right before you right? Yeah, it's no longer like two or two and a half hours. It's probably an hour, sometimes less, but I'm still watching them right before I right before I get up and dance a little bit to a few songs and then write.

Traci Thomas 49:54

Uncomfy chair?

Mateo Askaripour 49:56

Same chair. Same chair.

Traci Thomas 49:58

any new rituals?

Mateo Askaripour 50:02

No, I'm still turning my phone off and throwing it behind me. And, yeah, I'm still, you know, meditating in the morning, trying to start off my day from a proactive not a reactive place. So not responding or even looking at texts or emails before I'm ready. Before I before I sit down to my desk. Of course, that's a privilege, but that's how I'm doing it. And yeah, I think that most things are still the same.

Traci Thomas 50:36

Okay, last time we talked, I asked you if you knew what was coming next, and you said you had an idea, but when I heard you talk, last week in LA, you said that you started this great hemisphere in 2020. And so I don't think you were talking about this great hemisphere when I asked you last time, so I'm going to ask you again. Do you know what comes next? Are you working on something?

Mateo Askaripour 50:57

I'd be so curious to see how I answered that or what I was even referring to. It might have been this great hemisphere might have been something else.

Traci Thomas 51:07

It didn't sound like this because I feel like you said it was like maybe something's all similar. You said maybe something similar to black buck.

Mateo Askaripour 51:14

But in the acknowledgments of black buck I wrote, I said, my next book is going to be nothing like this. So I knew that I knew that it was going to be this great hemisphere. But I could have been talking, I could have been talking about a variety of projects. Yes, I have a draft of a new novel. And, you know, going to continue to revise and work on that. And, you know, see, see what we can do with it. And they're still I might have brought this up. Last time we spoke. We still have traction in Hollywood.

Traci Thomas 51:46

So with last time we spoke, you said, by the time this airs, there might be some news about blackbuck, but you couldn't? And I said, like casting? And you said no, but like, what it's gonna be and who's behind it? And I believe the answer is it's going to be a movie.

Mateo Askaripour 52:04

No, no, no, no. We are still hard at work on getting this to a small screen near you. And maybe, maybe by the next time we speak.

Traci Thomas 52:16

What about this one? Do you want this on the screen? This This to me has to be on the screen. I got to see it. As I was reading it. I was like, This is so cinematic, I got us yet. We're working on that too. And we'll see what we think this has to be a movie, not a TV show.

Mateo Askaripour 52:30

We're working on that too. We'll see what we can do. And yeah, so there's just a main thing that I'm working on. Is this, this new novel? Feeling feels good to be working on it. And we'll see. We'll see what else goes on. See what else comes through.

Traci Thomas 52:47

Two more questions for people who love this great hemisphere. What are some other books you would recommend that are in conversation and not the ones you recommended before?

Mateo Askaripour 52:57

A Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. They will enjoy The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. Do you definitely enjoy changing all stars by Nana Kwame RJ branya I think that's yeah, that's it. That's it.

Traci Thomas 53:20

Okay. Last question. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Mateo Askaripour 53:26

Hmm. Octavia Butler. I would love I would love her to read this and give me her feedback.

Traci Thomas 53:35

I love it. Great answer. Okay party people you can listen to or read this great hemisphere wherever you listen to or read your books. It is out in the world. I had a great time with it. It will make you think it will make you double take a few times. You'll be like wait what the fuck? Which is always have great joy. Mateo, thank you for coming back again. Now that you are a famous superstar.

Mateo Askaripour 54:00

Come on.

Traci Thomas 54:01

I knew him when.

Mateo Askaripour 54:03

Thank you so much for having me.

Traci Thomas 54:05

Thank you and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks.

Alright, y'all, that does it for us this week. Thank you again to Mateo Askaripour for for joining the show. And thank you to Lauren Morrow for making this conversation possible. Remember the stacks book club pick for July is Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler and we will discuss that book on Wednesday, July 31. With Emily Raboteau. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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