Ep. 334 Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo — The Stacks Book Club (Jay Ellis)

Written By Megan Caballero

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re discussing Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo. We’re joined by actor and author Jay Ellis to explore the story of The Crafts, a husband-and-wife duo who escaped slavery by pretending to be a white man and his slave in 1848. We discuss why we think this story fell out of the collective consciousness, how the horrors of slavery are often minimized, and the complicated nature of familial relationships in the midst of chattel slavery. 

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our next book club pick will be.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined once again, by our actor and author friend Jay Ellis. Jay is here to help me discuss the stacks of book club, pick of Master Slave Husband Wife, by Ilyon Woo this book is an incredibly thorough and engaging masterwork of nonfiction. It won the Pulitzer this year for biography, and it tells the true story of William and Ellen Kraft, a married enslaved couple who escaped North from 1848 Georgia to freedom by pretending to be a white slave master and his manservant, the book covers the kinds of hurdles and opposition they encounter along their way, plus their experiences in the north, dealing with all sorts of different abolitionists. In addition to talking about the plot of this book, Jay and I also talked about the way sexism and colorism show up in this story, how little history we learned as kids and so much more. Please note, there are some minor spoilers on this episode. Make sure to listen through to the end of this episode to find out what our September book club pick will be. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack it is just $5 a month, and you get to be part of the best bookish community that has ever existed in the history of books. That is a fact that has not been fact checked, but it is a feeling more than anything. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get to be part of our Discord community. You get bonus episodes, and you also get to know that by joining the stacks pack for just $5 a month, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Another fun perk of the stacks pack is that you get a shout out on this very podcast. So thank you to Kelly at Spock, Lindsay Thomas, Jennifer Odom, Elaine, Wu Elizabeth Miller, Shelly Kinsey, Sarah Kozlowski, and C nesrac. And for those of you listening now who love the show, who want to support my work, but don't really want to be part of a community and have to go to a virtual book club and all that stuff, you can support the work of the show. Find out what's going on, what I've got coming up in the works, what I'm into, pop culture wise, if you go to my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe, go straight to your inbox. No community necessary. Thank you so much to everyone who makes this show possible. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Jay Ellis about Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo reminder, there are minor spoilers on this episode.

All right, everybody, it is the stacks book club day. I'm so excited. I am joined again by author, actor all around, stand up, human being. Jay Ellis, welcome back to the stacks.

Jay Ellis 2:58

Thank you so much for having me. I love being an all around what did you say? Amazing human being? Stand up. Stand up. Human I love it.

Traci Thomas 3:05

Yeah, we love a stand up. It's an illustrious guest. It's the same vibe. You know, gotta, gotta come up with a different way of saying people are wonderful. Because I only have wonderful people here. That's not true. I've had some duds. You're not one. Okay? We're doing book club. We're talking about Master Slave Husband Wife, an epic journey from slavery to freedom, by Ilyon Woo, which was the 2024, co Pulitzer Prize winner in biography. It won alongside king by Jonathan AG, eg, AG, I don't know. I gonna have to get done one day. AG, I'm gonna go with AG, but I think so it's not easy. It's not easy, and it's not 100% on that. Okay, before we even dive in, I'm gonna give a quick synopsis for people listening to this episode. This is a non fiction book. It is history that took place starting in 1848 however, it's sort of a forgotten history. So there will be spoilers to this story on this episode, but also the information is in the world. It happened a long time ago, so don't fight me. Okay, so it's the story of Ellen and William craft, who are two people who are enslaved in Macon, Georgia, and they are a married couple. They decide this is not the life we want, because slavery is hell, and they decide to escape to the north. Ellen is half black, half white, by rape from her father who raped her mother, who was enslaved. He is her previous owner. She's currently owned by her half sister. She flees with William. She is disguised as a young man, young gentleman, an ill young gentleman. Yup, they take the train. Oh, and he is pretending to be her slave, so that hence now we've already got master slave and has. And wife spoiler. They take the they go by foot, they go by train, they go by carriage, they go by boat. They make their way all the way north to Philadelphia. Guess what? It's not safe there. Go to Boston. Boston, they're free ish. But for those of you who know your history, you might be familiar with the Fugitive Slave Act, which means anybody can go up to any black person and say, You're my slave, my slave, back down. You go, yeah, yeah, let's let me take you back down south. So then eventually they decide, still not safe. There's, there's some historical drama that happens. They're still not safe. Come 1850 they leave again. They go north, they go to Canada, and then they go to England, and along the way they make a bunch of abolitionist friends. It's really a who's who of 1848 to 1865 political political leaders. So that's basically the premise of the book. We always start here, which is just sort of generally, what did you think of the book, Jay?

Jay Ellis 6:02

I found myself feeling, for lack of a better phrase, dumb because I didn't know this story. I found myself to be honest, like, inspired in some ways, by like, their like, ingenuity, like, there's like, there's just so many things. First of all, this man saved money to then buy clothes to then play these characters, right? I don't there's just so many things. There's also these moments of like, you know, there's moments of like, I feel like, there were times where, like, my heartbeat would be race like, pounding, like, are they gonna get? Like, Philadelphia, I think it's such a great example of that story, like, are they gonna the first time they get on the train and somebody recognizes her, yes, and she plays deaf. Like, there were so many moments where I was like, oh my god, is this where they get caught? Like, what happened? And then what happened from here and anyway to have not known this story, and have been introduced to this story in this way, and have gotten a chance to read about it, and now go do my own digging. I just, I love this book. I feel like this is something that should be taught in history.

Traci Thomas 7:07

Yes, yes, okay, I agree with everything you've said. I want to come back to why we don't know this story, like why this story was lost history, because I have some questions about that. But overall, really impressed with the book, like the level of research and detail and the way that she takes it and then turns it into narrative. So it does feel like pulse pounding, like, what's gonna happen when there's a whole totally different version of this book that is like in 1848 like, and it's just like stale. I do wish a little bit that the author had contextualized some like, like, historical opinions. Like, I wanted her to go, like, a little deeper on, like, some of the colorism stuff, because it's obviously so at play in the book. But she doesn't, like, fully dig in. And I just was like, there were moments where I was like, what would a regular, degular person think about this thing like, so there was a little bit of parts where I was just like, I want you to tell me more. Like, I know, you know, because you're an academic. Like, help me figure out what I'm supposed to think. I wanted the answers. And I definitely think the escape part in the beginning was my favorite part. Like, the first third of the book is so good, and then the middle third I liked a lot, because I liked hearing about the different arguments around abolition and like, the different politicians. And then the third part was my least favorite. I was a little bored in Europe.

Jay Ellis 8:31

Oh, let them have their life.

I Yeah. But I was like, I'm tired of them going around with Williams Wells Brown. I'm like, okay, like this trio, I don't know. It's not master, slave, husband, wife, and then French, the other William,

other William, and with William too.I will say, I agree with you. I think the the escape was, was crazy, crazy. The middle, the middle section for me is actually really interesting. Like, the middle of the book for me is actually really interesting because, uh, actually really interesting, because they become celebrities, right? Like they become and I just they become celebrities, but technically, they're still on the run. But so, like, there's this very interesting thing of, like, you know, there's that story which actually happens in Boston wildly enough, where, like, the community puts arms around them. I think it was in Boston where this happened, and the community puts arms around them, and they're like, No, we're saving them. Like, no, we're keeping them. I think that was in Boston. It was in Philly. I think it was when they got to Boston, right? Boston? Yeah, oh yes, because the because they're the slave owner, had sent someone to go get them, yeah, and so, I don't know, I just even thinking of, like, a community of people, even at this time with this act out there, deciding that they were going to put their arms like around this, this, this couple, and say, like, no, they are free. We are going to hide them and save them. And then from there them, obviously realizing that, like, they would never technically be safe, they still needed to leave, which is ultimately was sent them to Europe. I don't know that middle section, to me, was really interesting, too. I think the colorism thing is also this really great conversation that you're right. Like, what did that mean for him?

Traci Thomas 10:08

Okay, let's, let's talk about this. I was gonna talk about this later, but I want to talk about, we will come back to the beginning of the book, but I really want to talk about the way that Ellen and William are portrayed. Yeah, to us through the author, because there are so many times where, like, she will say, like, William took credit for the escape, but maybe it was actually Ellen. And I'm like, Well, why are you saying that? Why are you saying maybe it was Ellen? If all the documentation that you have is saying that it's William, is it because William is, like, a darker skinned black person, and like, there's so many not. I'm not suggesting that the author feels that way, but I'm just suggesting that, like, the the text that she's relying on is clearly giving her a sense that William wasn't smart enough. Like and there's a part where the etzland family that they're with in England, yeah, refers to him as, like, crass and like a showman. And everybody loves Ellen the most, and Ellen's always ranked the highest, and Ellen is so funny, and Ellen is so smart, and then it's just like, and Ellen is so beautiful. Oh my god. Ellen is so beautiful, you guys, she's so beautiful. How could anyone think this beauty? She's like, one of us, like the conversation around Ellen versus the way that William is any like, there's even a part where, at the end, where they're like, Ellen and William Brown, William Wells Brown, like, might have been having an affair, and it's just like, but the other William is an idiot, like, and I'm like, But wait, maybe other William is, Like, a cool dude and like, maybe, maybe Ellen is having an affair, like,

Jay Ellis 11:45

exist, right?

Traci Thomas 11:46

Yeah, Ellen can be so beautiful and so perfect, and also, maybe she betrayed their marriage, yeah, you'd like, I just did it. Did you feel that too? Like there would be these moments where Ellen, like, gets so much generosity and, like, anytime anything said about William, it's like, William,

Jay Ellis 12:07

it's him. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. You know what it made me think of, and this is a bit tangent, also, just go with me for a second. But it made me think of the story of Bass Reeves, and how, like, bass, Reeves ultimately got portrayed as the Lone Ranger, because there is no way in the world that this black man could have done those things. You know what I mean? It's easier to believe and make up this character. It's easier to believe that that he arrested 220 700 people, or 2350 people at one time, or whatever it is. It's easier to believe it if you do one of two things, you either make it magical or right? You change him, and you change his race. And I think, like that is the story of Bass Reeves, which we know is like the inspiration for the Lone Ranger. And I think when you look at the history and the stories that are told about Bass Reeves, it's always in this way of like you have to he's so magical, he's so superhuman, because there's no way that he could do it unless he's that right? But the people that are telling us those stories don't look like him, so the right? And I think that to your point, the historical text of the time that are being used for the research and in this book are written by people who don't look like William, and it's easier to accept or allow, I think, Ellen, to your point, to have the glory, to be so beautiful, to be so elegant, to be all of the things in that time. But yeah, I totally picked up on that.

Traci Thomas 13:39

It's just it's so interesting, because even when there's moments where it's like, the contemporaneous text says William takes credit for the plan, we still get paragraphs that it's like, but was it really William, right? And I'm like, Well, I don't know. I mean, if you're telling me all this other stuff from this text, then I have to assume, if I'm gonna believe all of that, then shouldn't I also believe that William came up with this plan and and I do think, like, I think, you know, part of it is that, like, the story changes throughout time, and then the beginning it's both of them, and then later it's just William. And you know, you know how that is, like the stories change in life, like, if you're telling a story, and depending on the audience and all changes. But I just found that part really interesting, and how it's always like, oh, Ellen was so quick on her feet. And it's like, well, William was right there too. Like William was helping, making these things happen, too. And I just I found that really interesting because it also makes me think, like, if the roles, I guess, not exactly, but like, if it was possible for Ellen to have been darker skinned and still pulled this off, would we think like her witty little jokes? Would she still get to be considered, like, so witty and so funny, or would it be like she's rude, like she's a bitch, like she's a black woman who doesn't know her play? And she's making, like, I can't and I think also, like, I was reading this over the last week, and we're recording this at the beginning of August, and it's like, now Kamala Harris is the nominee. And like, when we recorded the first episode with you, Joe Biden, we still are not like, there's so much as, I mean, you've become a dad to a second pair, like, there's your book has come out. So much has changed since we lost a lot has changed. But like, even just the framing of someone like Ellen and just thinking about her getting to have those moments where she set I can't it's like, Oh, someone's like, oh, would slaves know what to do with themselves? Would they be able to take care of themselves if they didn't have their masters? And she's like, well, they take care of themselves and their masters. So I'm pretty sure they'd be fine on their own. And like, a line like that is so funny and cute at the time. And everyone's like, hahaha. But I'm like, if she looked darker, right? Is that funny and cute, or is that she's got a bad attitude?

Jay Ellis 15:53

You know? I think it's really interesting too. Is like, when you think about this time, I think the thing that we have to be able to give so much credit to both of these people for regardless of whose idea was, is that they both had to be all in at all times? Right? No one got to take a day off. Neither one of them got to take a day off. They both had to be all in at all times, which means they're both as equally important to this journey, to this freedom, to this story, to becoming the you know, celebrities, if you will, that they became right. They're like, they're both equally important to it, because they both had to be in at all times, because if one of them betrayed it at any moment, it put the other one at risk as well.

Traci Thomas 16:36

Right, right, yes, and yes, 1,000% that the other thing, just like, because I want to go back to the beginning of the story, but the other thing about the colorism thing is, like, in the book, there's a there's inserts of pictures of the people, and some of them are drawings, some of them are photographs. But at this time, and she mentions this in the book, at this time, you know, Ellen's one of the first women abolitionists to take the stage. It's like pre Harriet Tubman, who becomes a huge star on the stage. But all of the men who are really focused on William Wells Brown, Frederick Douglass and then Ellen are all lighter skinned, mixed, you know, mulatto as the language of the time people. And they're all like the beloved, you know. So there, I think there is something to this, like these white audiences that are hearing this, or these abolitionist audiences, many of which are Quaker, many of them are white, though the book does mention that it's like a very diverse group of people that there is something to like, needing to have some white in them to, like, be heard or seen perhaps at this time. I don't know if that's true, but that's a little bit of just like, looking at the pictures, I was like, oh, all these abolition Purvis is also extremely fair skin. He looks basically white. So I thought that was really interesting. Like, even though we're saying, like, black lives matter in this time. In our own way, we're also like, but we want to hear it from the people who we know whose dads raped their moms. You know, like, we want to hear it from the people that we know are like, at least somewhat connected to us. So I guess that's I want to go back to the beginning. And I think, you know, dads raping moms is great place to start. Were you first of all, were you taught slavery in school? I know you went to a lot of schools.

Jay Ellis 18:28

We were taught slavery in school. I remember watching roots in school. I remember being one of two black kids in a class watching roots in school and how uncomfortable that was. Yeah, sounds like fun. Yeah. Yes. Wildly uncomfortable, but yeah, no, we were taught slavery in school.

Traci Thomas 18:46

Okay, as was I. How much of the information about what day to day life was like for enslaved people felt new to you in this book?

Jay Ellis 18:59

Oh, I felt like I learned a lot in this book, or I was being exposed to a lot of new stuff in this book.

Traci Thomas 19:04

New, so much new. Because I was,

Jay Ellis 19:08

like, even the fact that he was a cabinet maker. I was like, Oh, you had a specialized thing. Like, even that was like, You know what I mean, like, the fact that, but, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Traci Thomas 19:17

No, no, no. I just was curious. Because, like, you know, nowadays we talk about, like, oh, how kids, like, aren't gonna learn anything about slavery because it makes the white kids uncomfortable. And there's this whole debate about what. And I'm like, Okay, well, I was taught like, about slavery in school. But even what we were taught, like, even what the prevailing narratives are are so, like, high level, like, on page 34 she goes through and talks about the pricing of different people, yes, and I didn't learn about that. I learned about that prior to this book, only because we did beloved on this podcast, and my guest was another historian, poet, and she was talking about the price of enslaved people and how, like a young woman, pre child bearing age was the most expensive. So. Slave to purchase. You would think it would be like a strong young man. Nope. She's like a 12 year old girl who's never who's like, maybe had one kid or a few kids, had no kids, yeah. Like that is return on investment type per and I was like, just thinking about, like, we're not taught about, like, the economics of slavery, or like that, you could take out a mortgage on a person. I didn't know you could do that.

Jay Ellis 20:23

I don't think I knew that. I think I definitely knew, like the value system, if you will. But I don't think I knew, I mean, because you know when you I mean, when you think about it, like that young woman is going to give you more children, yeah, ultimately, yeah, do.

Traci Thomas 20:38

As soon as you think about it, it makes total sense. But like, I don't, I don't ever remember, like, ever thinking about how human beings would be priced in a real way, like, I like, I felt like in school, I was like, they sold them, yeah, but like, they had different prices. Like, of course, some humans were more valuable than others. Crazy, provide which is crazy, crazy. She casually mentions in this book that December is prime buying and selling season. And I really wanted to know more about that. Why? Why is it December? Yeah, what is about? What is it about? Just, is it like, oh, we gotta, like, clear the books before the new year starts, before, like, the new fiscal year. Like, I just really wanted to,

Jay Ellis 21:24

this is a great question. I wonder what I mean. I wonder if it's, like, the harshness of winter, maybe, I mean, but they're in the

Traci Thomas 21:28

Yeah, like, or maybe, is it because maybe you want to, like, get people like, This is so crazy, you want to onboard them so that when planting season comes around in the spring, situated, they're ready to go. They like, they go to deal the land. Like, I don't know I was, I was sitting there after, after I read that line, like, for like, five minutes being like, what are the reasons this could be true? Um, but like, just like, little things like that. Like, of course, in any economy there's gonna be, like, a busy season. But I had never even stop to really consider stuff like that and this,

Jay Ellis 22:03

we're also not talking about like a machine that goes forever, right? You're talking about people who die off, who run away, who sell, who you sell off. So you also need to replenish that workforce, yeah, so yeah all

Traci Thomas 22:15

the time, yeah. And like, and then also like, you know, something that I have thought about a lot because I am not only am I mixed, like my dad is black and my mom is white, but my dad is from New Orleans, so we're Creole, which is like an inherently mixed group of people. So I think a lot about colorism and color and also the interpersonal relationships on plantations between masters and the people that they enslave, and also what that means for those children and, like, the family relationships, but this book really brought that to the front. I mean, yeah, Ellen and Eliza,

Jay Ellis 22:58

it's really crazy, right? Like her half sister,

Traci Thomas 23:03

yeah, and like, they talk about how she looks dead ass on the dad.

Jay Ellis 23:08

So crazy. Do you think that? Like, I just wonder what conversations were like. You know what I mean, like, what is Monday through Friday? Like, at the dinner table, or

she's at the dinner table?

Yeah, she's not at the dinner table. But you know what I mean?

Traci Thomas 23:23

Like, yeah, like, when she's like, doing up her hairdo, is she like, you know how dad is

Jay Ellis 23:29

so annoying to think that? Like, it also like, I mean, I You're enslaved. So some of you obviously wishes you had that freedom to be in that house. But then also, like, what is that feeling of like, anger or disgust inside while you're having to, like, do your half sister's hair. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, it's just such a crazy thing to think about the layers of that. And, like, how, what a mind,

Traci Thomas 23:55

yeah, you know what I mean? And like, they talk about how, like, Ellen's our favorite. She's, like, one of our best, she's, she's our she's our beloved. And I'm just like, you own your sister. Like, that is so fucking crazy. And like, there's, there's so many parts of, like, the actual human part of what happened during chattel slavery that the way that it's taught in school, the way that it's even portrayed in like film and television, divorces the actual human feelings from the stuff, like even in a movie, like 12 Years a Slave and like the scenes with Lupita and Nyong'o, where you're like, these are so brutal, it's still hard for me to comprehend. But reading this book, I just there were so many, like the different stories, like William's sister being sold off right at like, that scene. And then there's another there's like so many. There's another guy whose wife is pregnant and is sold off four miles like, along with. The chain get, yeah, like, I don't know if it's because I'm a parent now, and I think about these things differently than maybe I did when I was, like 16 or whatever, learning about it, but like, this book really drove home to me, How fucking unreal. Yeah, evil. Like, you can just buy a person and mortgage a person and just and say you're a Christian, and then just send them away. A nine year old girl, you're just taking a nine year old girl from her mom to go work for your daughter. Like, what the fuck are you guys?

Jay Ellis 25:39

You know what I'm doing. It is too. I wonder if it's like because at that age, to your point, I wonder if it's like at that younger age, it's so hard for us to you know, you haven't had enough life experience. You are learning about this at a very young age, but like you haven't had enough life experience, your experience is probably with your parents or with a guardian, but you haven't had, I don't know there's something about like, there's something that you just said that just made me think about, like, when you have kids, and maybe that's the thing that kind of puts it all into a different perspective, because now you're talking about the person you've chose to spend your life with. You're talking about your children, you're talking about this, this thing being ripped apart and sold and mortgaged and raped and pillaged and beaten and all those things. But like you as a kid, even when we learn that stuff, and you're right, like, there is the human, the humanity element of it, the emotional element of it, is fully sanitized. But like, I wonder if it's like, also that we may not have enough life to connect to it. Yeah, I think you're right. I do think there is something about being a parent where you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like it does hit you in a bit of a different way than when we're young, and maybe it's the way that it's taught to us when we're young, because we're not getting all the information that we should be getting,

Traci Thomas 27:01

right. I think, I think that definitely has to do with it too. Like, we're not taught some of this stuff by design, right? Like, it's like, like, we have to protect children. But also, like, it makes, it doesn't make America look good, right? Like, right, it is not a good look to be a country who continued this decades after other people were like, either forced to stop doing it or chose to stop doing it for whatever moral reasons. Like, not only did we not stop until, not only did it take us longer, but we did not stop until there was a literal war over it. Like, they

Jay Ellis 27:45

still didn't stop in some places.

Traci Thomas 27:46

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's like, then you go back to teach this history, and it's like, okay, how can we make this like work the best? But I also think it's, I think part of it for me was becoming a parent, but I also think you're right, like, it's just like, it's just like life experience like, I think when you experience like, you know, some kids do experience loss at a very young age, and maybe, you know, they are able to understand this in a different way than I could, like at in the space that I was when I was learning about slavery. But I think also it's experiencing loss and being like, okay, for me, my dad passed away when I was 25 and that was really, really sad. So now, when I think about someone's family member getting taken away, I'm like, that was very sad for me, and was nothing compared to what if this had happened to me? When I like, it's like, I can experience, I can have. I've had a life experience that I can relate to this thing, and I know that what I experienced was like, point 000, 0% of what it must have been like to be a person that was owned by other people, that was physically punished, that was their whole life was arbitrary at the whims of whoever was in the home that they lived and then, if they got sold, their whole life changed based on the new person and their personality. And like to lose a family member or a sibling, or just even, like, just a place that you call home, just to be told this isn't your home anymore. You don't there's

Jay Ellis 29:06

also something there's also something interesting. There's something interesting you just said. But like, by not going into it a little deeper and at another level, it also kind of leaves us to just believe that slaves were dumb and uneducated. Yes, yes. Like, the reality of it is, like, the life experience that they had. And by the way, they are the, they are the Farmers Almanac, right? They are the farmer Farmers Almanac. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, I think it's also this,

Traci Thomas 29:33

and they're the architects all those beautiful plantation homes that you love so much and want to get married at folks, they're building them. Who do you think built. Those who do you think designed, those who do you think came up with the the like, the weight, not just the actual building, but like they knew the techniques. They were master artistry. Like, William is a cabinet maker. He's

Jay Ellis 29:53

a cabinet maker. Yeah, and I think you know how much cabinets cost, there's something that's really interesting about that, because. It. It makes you believe truly that in some way, they were being saved, you know what I mean, or

Traci Thomas 30:09

that they were okay with it. Like it was like, Yeah, an okay deal,

Jay Ellis 30:13

yeah. But the reality is, they had to be so much smarter than what we could ever even imagine in order for the economy of the South to do what it did.

Traci Thomas 30:18

And the economy of the South really was the economy of the whole country. Because, I mean, she talks about it in the book, but it's like, Oh, this guy from Boston, he was, he had the loom, yeah. So like, what's all the cotton gonna do you, if you can't turn it into something, right? And, like, you know, we know. We know how much the economy, like, we know how much the North tried to scapegoat the south on a lot of this stuff. And, like, how slavery was not just a southern thing, but, like, a whole but, but a entire country thing. But I do think you're right that it's like, it makes it seem like this, the people who are enslaved, or at least complicit, or, like, not, but they were like, okay with it. Like, it was like, you know, not a great deal, but it's fine. And then you read a book like this, and it's like, on every page, someone is trying to escape. On every page, people are, you know, resisting and just fucking shit up, just a little bit, like, just making things difficult. And like, I think that's the, I think that's the thing that, like, I realized as I got older, was like, okay, black Americans, black people, and I'm sure this happened, obviously in other places. We know Haiti had a revolt years and years before we did, but that, like, black people who were enslaved were not liking it at all. Like, we're taught this is, yeah, we're taught like, this is just the way of the land, but like, that is not how it felt in the time people like, that's why the enslavers were so had so many laws, like all of this. They were freaked the fuck out. They were like, We're outnumbered, and these people hate it here. Yeah, we're outnumbered. These people hate it here, and we need them to be like, we will do anything we can to make their lives more difficult and punish them in the hopes that we can maintain this. But by the time it gets taught in schools, it's like, this was the economy and like, not great, but also, like, got a place to stay Eli Whitney's invention, yeah, exactly. They love church, you wouldn't have like oxtails if it weren't for this. So congratulations. Okay, let's take a quick break, and then we're gonna come back. Okay, we're back. Let's talk a little bit about the escape, speaking of black folks not wanting to be enslaved, being way smarter than everybody else. This plan is fucking brilliant.

Jay Ellis 32:48

Brilliant. Again, once again, we're talking about whoever came up with the plan. They came up with the plan.

Traci Thomas 32:55

I think they came up with it together. Personally, I have a hard time believing that William was like, here's the plan. Or Ellen was like, This is what you're going to do.

Jay Ellis 33:02

Well, because also you need somebody, because they split up, right? So you need somebody who's going to go through with their you need to know that this person is going to go through with their part,

Traci Thomas 33:10

and you're not going to do someone else's plan. If you don't, if you haven't felt signed off, this is your literal life on the line, both of your lives on the line, because, you know, if you get caught, I mean, William says I'm gonna kill, it's gonna be it's death or freedom, yeah, right, like, he's got the gun. He's like, but if you get caught and you go back, no, no,

Jay Ellis 33:33

no.

Traci Thomas 33:35

I mean, no,

Jay Ellis 33:36

not at all. No, not at that. Okay, so this plan, this plan, is absolutely amazing. I love the fact that William was smart enough to pick up the hair and take it with him after he cut it so, like, there was no signs that, like, you know what I mean. And now she looks at herself and looks, she's like, Oh, I'm a sick little white boy. Like, it's just like, This is crazy. Like

Traci Thomas 33:57

they played on the like fantasy of, like, young white boy goes off with his slightly older and wiser slave, like to see the world, and the slave will teach it like, I love that this is, like, this made up idea of like, Southern like, in the Southern world. And they were like, Let's, let's fucking do that bullshit that they think, that they think, like we're besties and like that. She was like, Okay, well, I don't have facial hair, so I probably need some, like, pulses or whatever, like, I need some like, bandages on my face. I'm like, I'm terrified. So like, glasses feel like, like it was just, there's a line where the author says, like, they were able to pull this off because they were both creative people, and they were able to visualize the whole plan, and I I felt really seen. I was like, because that's how I work. I'm like, Okay, I have an idea, and now I have to sit down and literally plan it out all the way to the end and think about all the possible things that could go wrong. I usually just call this anxiety, but apparently. It's also a winning strategy.

Jay Ellis 35:01

It's also vision. You have vision. They had vision. So what I was just gonna say, I just, I also love this thing of, like, her being in her enslavers clothes, you know? Like, there's just so many things that were like, just well thought out. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this isn't again. This back to your point, like it wasn't hers, it wasn't his. It had to be theirs, because somebody had to be like, but what if, yeah, and then, and then what? And what are you gonna say and what are you gonna wear? Like someone had to constantly be poking holes and each other, like they had to build this thing together, especially for them to like, then meet at the train hours later and not know if the other one was gonna be there,

Traci Thomas 35:44

even beyond there, I know. And like, I think what's interesting about their story because they're both sort of skilled air quotes, skilled laborers. Or, I guess it's not air quotes, but they're skilled laborers. She, you know, works by the side of her mistress, slash sister, and also is like above average seamstress, and he's a cabinet maker, and so both of their work puts them in very close proximity to white people. And I think that that was really important for their plan as well. Like that, they both had to know and understand who they were up against. And like she knew in the moment when the guy sits down that she had served dinner the night before, like, I gotta just be deaf, like he will know. And like, then later on, she was like, I gotta stand my ground, because, like, I'm not gonna get like, they would not accept me getting bitched around here. And like, I just thought that that stuff. Of like, you know, we talk about this a lot in writing, of, like, men can't write women because men don't see women fully. But women can write men, or like black people can write white people, because we know and understand the oppressor in a way that, like, it would be probably very hard for a white person at this time to, like, disguise themselves as black because they just don't see them. But, but when you're observing the people, you're tormentors, you see every little thing. And I just love that, like that played to their advantage.

Jay Ellis 37:06

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting, because you just brought up something that I again, like to have the ability to pivot and play deaf. You know what I mean? Like to have in a moment you pivot, you're like, Oh, I see him. He might see me. What do I do here? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that is not, that's not the thought that runs through people's minds. Like, that's not the average thought, like, I don't want to talk to somebody, I'm just gonna play deaf. Like, that's not the average thought that runs through somebody's mind, and it's such a risk, such a risk.

Traci Thomas 37:39

Like, it's just so they're both so risky, it's unbelievable. And, like, also the whole thing of like, oh, well, I don't know how to write, so I'm just gonna put my hand in a sling and be like, will you write for me? And like that, that just, like, worked. Yeah, okay,

Jay Ellis 37:58

she's in men's clothes. She's never wore men's clothes before. She doesn't have to move in men's clothes. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's just so many things where you're like, I don't know. It's just the ingenuity and and how clever, yeah, thoughtful and thought out so many things had to be, and also, at the same time, how committed to it you have to be, because at any moment, something could go sideways.

Traci Thomas 38:19

Yeah, I would say it's, like, a, it's a real like, Simone Biles level, commit to the bit, like, it's, it's the hardest gymnastics move that's ever happened. And you just have to hope that you stick the landing and like they do, they pull it off. That part to me, I'm just like, Wait, you guys really did it? Like, congratulations.

Jay Ellis 38:42

I was about to say Planes, Trains and Automobiles, but carriages, trains and automobiles and ships. Well, ships, sorry, no, automobiles, carriages, trains and ships. They figured it out.

Traci Thomas 38:53

They get to fill or they get to Pennsylvania, they make it, yeah, they become part of the abolitionist circuit, and basically from the moment, from the moment that they get to freedom, everyone is like, this is PR genius. This is everyone around them is like, we can sell this. I thought that was fascinating, yeah. Like, I did not, I def as as much as I knew about slavery, and also the things that I didn't know. I felt like the at learning about, like, how the abolitionist movement was working on day to day, like how these people were coming in and, like, getting linked up immediately. It's not like they were going on Twitter and being like, Bitch, I'm here. Where's the party at? Like, going to the hotel and being like, who can help us?

Jay Ellis 39:46

We have an abolitionist party on Tuesday. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 39:49

yeah. They're like, Purvis. Purvis Come, come, come, roll up. We got these two and, like, she comes out in her men clothes, and then she's like, just kidding, like, I'm a girl. I. Um, like, all of that, like, from the moment they touch down, everyone is like, Yeah, let's, let's get this on stage immediately. I thought that was fascinating.

Jay Ellis 40:13

Yeah, what do you think? Like, first of all, I mean, you're going out and you're having conversations, obviously, with groups of people, yeah, I'm sure there. Obviously, there was some writing about it as well. Clearly, we know that, but I think when you think of that, it's just such an interesting thing. But I also have such a mixed relationship with PR, right? Because I yeah, for a living, so I have such a mixing relationship with VR as part of what I do for a living. So I'm just curious. Like, when you think of that, is there any like, does it feels sticky in any way to you, like, is there anything about it that feels like, yeah, you're doing a good thing. But also something about it feels a little, I don't know. It just does. It feels a little icky, feels a little opportunist. It feels a little, you know what I mean, putting people in danger, sure,

Traci Thomas 40:55

for sure. I think so. This is another part of the book that I would have loved to see contextualized a little bit more. And I don't know if there's like, data, but I'm curious to know how many people who escaped from the south then go on the abolitionist circuit. Like, are they doing interviews and being like, your story's Good, come with us? Or, like, or is it just like, oh, I want to talk about this stuff, or I'm able to talk about this stuff. And I think, like, that information would have been helpful to me, because I did think it was a little bit crazy that, like, from the moment they touched down, they're like, Okay, tomorrow, you guys have to come tell your story. You, yeah. And that also other people were telling their story, and then being like, Okay, guys, come on out. Like it what remember? Because, like, that's how the setup was. It's like William Wells Brown would go up there and talk for like, 20 minutes, and then he would decide, like, when to bring them out. And it would be such a surprise, because the white slave would come up, like, that's what they called Ellen. And so it felt a little bit like, like they were being used, a little bit like for their story, but it also sounds like they wanted to tell their story. They wanted, maybe they didn't know that they wanted to do it before they got there. But there's multiple times where they could have just left and they chose to stay and like be part of this community, and like to go on the circuit. So I don't mean

Jay Ellis 42:20

layers, layers, right? Yes, layers. You've been, you've been given literally nothing your entire life, right? And the only attention you've ever gotten has been negative, probably, right, with the exception of, obviously, they loved, they loved Ellen, they loved Ellen, but she was still great. She's so great, but she's still a slave. But it's interesting, because, like, now you're being catered to. You're being you know, meals are being had in your honor, and conversations are being had, and people are clapping and money, and people are clapping when you stand there and they want to hear you speak. And so I imagine it is probably a very conflicting thing for them to be going through that, but also have this thing of, I don't know it's, yeah, I don't know, to me, it just was, like a very layered and confusing thing to be going through. But I can also see how you would lean into it, considering what your past has been and

Traci Thomas 43:14

like that, you feel a responsibility, perhaps, responsibility. Yeah,

Jay Ellis 43:17

you know what? I mean, there's not out, and there's so many things that I feel like could be actually fighting against each other,

Traci Thomas 43:25

and also, like, one of the things that's so crazy about this book is how many people in this book that I've, like, learned about in history, like, knew each other, or were, like, related to each other. It's like, it's like, Ellen's half sister, sister, yeah, is related to Grover Cleveland, yeah, I'm just like, wait, what? And then, like, Louisa May alcott's relative is like a Quaker, and then they're on the boat to Liverpool with the guy that Uncle Tom's Cabin was based off

Jay Ellis 43:55

the Quaker thing. The Quaker thing is when they got to Barclay, that's when they got to Barclays house, right? Is that when that whole, that whole connection, like, comes together?

Traci Thomas 44:04

I think so, yeah, yeah. I think so, yeah. But it's like, every like, it's like, and there's just like, Frederick Douglass is, like, hanging out, and like William Lloyd Garrison is just like, our friend, like Willie, like, definitely crazy.

Jay Ellis 44:18

Think of where they were, yeah, and then now, all of a sudden, you're, you're having conversations with people like this, or in rooms with people like this, or, I don't know, I can imagine, like, what, what kind of I don't know. I feel like my brain would explode. Like, I don't know how you process the two worlds, and

Traci Thomas 44:37

I don't know how you would make a decision. Like, I think in the book sheet, the author kind of tries to say that Ellen and William tried to tell their own story in their own way, and they didn't always share all the pieces of their life and all of this stuff, but it's hard to know. Like, that's some of the stuff that I just like, wish we could know. Like, I just wish we could just ask Ellen, like, what did it feel like to show up and then. Tell you like, we want to take you on the circuit. Like, did you consider saying no? Did you consider like, just going somewhere else? Like, how and also, like, these people are taking care of you, right? Like you're in these underground railroad places, meals places. They're telling you, yeah, they're telling you, we want you to talk like we think your story will really change lives. How do you say no to that?

Jay Ellis 45:26

It's interesting also, too. I wonder what like this is gonna sound crazy. This is such a hot I love things that sound crazy. Does William Wells Brown kind of feel like Don King? A little bit.

Traci Thomas 45:39

I was gonna go with a different King. It's gonna go with Sean King.

Jay Ellis 45:45

Whoa.

Traci Thomas 45:49

He just is on every circuit. And then, I mean, obviously, not fully Sean king, but like, he does have a little race peddler energy.

Jay Ellis 46:01

There's just something about it, but it's also like, I the reason I said the Don King pit is because it feels exploit, exploitative. It feels opportunistic. It feels like, in one hand, you are giving people a real chance at something in life, but on the other hand, you are also benefiting greatly from their thing.

Traci Thomas 46:20

Yeah, but they do make the point that later on, he's like, sent all his money home to his kids, and like, when he's like, on the streets of, like, Edinburgh, or whatever, he there's like another guy, and he like, gives him his like, last shilling. So like, but he does the thing is, like, when he's on that stage, the way that he's described, it's definitely giving like, a little, a little too much. Showman, it's like, why are you at every event? My guy, every event. Yeah. I mean, the other part about that is, like, there are so many people in this book that I'd never heard of, like Purvis. He's like, one of the first guys, and he's called the father of the Underground Railroad. I was like, if you if that was a question on Jeopardy and I could win a billion dollars, I would just be like, Mr. Harriet Tubman, like, I would have no clue. I'd be like, Colson.

Jay Ellis 47:13

Anybody Colson? That's amazing. Does anybody know Harriet Tubman's husband's name? Yeah, no, okay, I'll split.

Traci Thomas 47:21

Okay, okay, sorry,

Jay Ellis 47:24

I didn't see the purpose one threw me too. I didn't see that coming at all.

Traci Thomas 47:28

I don't think I knew William Wells Brown either. I did know Henry Box Brown. I had heard of Henry Box Brown, Henry the one who was in the box.

Jay Ellis 47:37

Oh yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:39

I had heard that story, Rob, I'd heard of him, Robert, and I knew, yeah, Purvis, I definitely didn't know. And it was like, then they meet the father of the Underground Railroad. And I like, it's like, the end of the chapter. It's like, Oh, who's it gonna be? And it was like, So and so Purvis. I was like, Julian. I was like, think you have the wrong guy. Never heard

Jay Ellis 47:57

I wonder what that was. I mean, he obviously, he met, he had money. He was black, I wonder,

Traci Thomas 48:03

but he looked white. Remember he was like, super passing.

Jay Ellis 48:05

Yeah, he was super passing. I wonder if it's because, like, maybe I missed this in the read. But, like, is it? Was it because he had, like, the financial means to, like, what was his qualification as being the father?

Traci Thomas 48:19

I think he was very connected. It's out, my sense was that, like, he knew everybody, and so he was able to be like, Okay, you can go be with these people, and you can go be with these people, right? But it didn't, she didn't. From my read, I don't remember her saying why he was the father, just that, like, that's what they called him, yeah, but it might have been like, the kind of thing where it's like, oh, he's the mayor of Los Angeles, and you're like, Oh, you just, he just knows everybody.

Jay Ellis 48:42

Knows everybody. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:44

he's just like, the center of the thing. Okay, we're sort of running out of time. But there's two things that I really want to talk about that are sort of more like thematic things from the book. One is that from the very beginning of this book, we are told, not only is this a story of two people who escape slavery, who are so ingenious and smart, but also that this is a great love story, and I'm curious how you feel about this book being framed as a great love story. Did you need that? Did you care if they were in love?

Jay Ellis 49:17

No, I don't think I cared. I think in some ways, it not being framed that way. You know, it's interesting. Okay, so I think this being a great love story, if, if you would want to call it that, I don't know that. I would necessarily think that, but like, if you wanted to call it a great love story, I could understand that because of the commitment that these two people are making to each other, and they're going to do this thing together, and they were able to do it together. Obviously, she may have been stepping out on the back end. We don't know there's, there's questions, but also he may have been stepping out on the back end. They both. They both could have got to the UK. Yeah, we out here. We live through a lot, so we gonna get in but I. Them being in love didn't process through my mind as I was reading this book like it didn't change anything for me. It didn't make everything the stakes are still there, the freedom is still there, the journey is still there. And maybe that's why they stayed in it. Maybe because, to your point, they could have walked away at any point in time, maybe, so maybe that's why they stayed in it. But I don't know that, like framing it that way necessarily did anything for me.

Traci Thomas 50:30

I just didn't think they needed it. I just, I also don't know that we know that they really loved each other like it felt like, like the Hollywood version of it, where it's like, and they loved each other like they could have, they could have loved each other. They could have loved each other at one point and then just become partners. They could have just been married people who saw an opportunity and loved working like, enjoyed being around each other and working with each other. Like, I don't know. There's so much personal stuff that we don't know. And the fact that like, it's like, they're in love. I'm like, okay, but who cares? Like, I don't know, for some reason, not really, like, was like, a tiny thing. Every time it would come up, I would just like, okay, whatever. Like, look for, like, they

Jay Ellis 51:06

could have got up north and been like, Oh, this is what it's like outside. Okay, yeah,

Traci Thomas 51:13

okay,

Jay Ellis 51:13

this is what he's cute, okay, you know what I mean, like, they could have got outside and, you know, they were in a very different situation when they got together, to when they were now on the other side of of of freedom, and then obviously, you know, going across the the Atlantic and getting to the UK as well. Like, the circumstance changed quite a bit. So not to say that they weren't in love, obviously, but like, they now had opportunity to look at life in a different way, yeah.

Traci Thomas 51:39

And like, I just think that the love part, whether they were or not, is super irrelevant to the story. To me, like it doesn't. I'm not like, Oh, I'm rooting for you more because you love each other. Like, if they had, I think that they have love for one another, like you might friend, yeah, like they were a partnership, but like, this idea that they also had to have a great love story, I'm like, nothing in here proves that they had a great love story, except for that they pulled off this incredible thing we started here, and I sort of want to end here, which is like, Why do you think this story has not withstood the test of time? Why did it disappear? Why didn't it stay?

Jay Ellis 52:12

I don't know. This is so crazy to me, because I'm like, is there a world in which, like, clearly, like someone decision makers, rather, at the state education level, across many states like don't want kids to know about successful attempts at escapes. You know what? I mean, I don't know. I still can't really clock that one. I still don't understand why we wouldn't know a story like this. I mean, I guess it's, by the way. I mean, you're talking about scrubbing 1000s of stories, right, right? Um, 1000s and 1000s. I mean, we know, for example, like, you know, Oklahoma, or what became Oklahoma was filled with escaped, enslaved, formerly enslaved people, right? So, like, no, but we don't know any of those stories either. So, and yeah, so, yeah, I don't, I mean, listen, history is, to this point, has been written by folks who do not come from slaves. And I think, you know, you look at states like, you know, Florida, and like, how they're changing, what they how they're going to teach around slavery, and you know, it's like you're now being told that, like, slaves learned useful skills. And listen, he was a cabinet he was a cabinet maker, and he made money being a cabinet maker, but also, right? He was so many other things,

Traci Thomas 53:32

right? And like, had any slaves choose, maybe he would have chosen something completely different for his wildly different, yeah, yeah. I don't know why this story hasn't stood the test of time, because it has all the elements of, like, something that would including that it was documented contemporaneous very well, yeah, yeah. And so I don't exactly know. I think part of it is that, like, the level of trickery is maybe just like, too good and too successful. And so people who were in charge, the whites did not want to and I think also, because Ellen is a complicated figure, it's easier to be like Harriet Tubman, Black Woman Goes back and forth to slavery, but it's harder to be like Ellen, woman who looks white because her dad raped her mom, who he owned and so she was able, like it puts that violence front and center. So I wonder if that's part of the reason that this story doesn't stand the test of time. Because as appealing as it was in the time Ellen, it's a comp. It's complicated, right? It's like, okay, we have to talk about how this was possible, and the way that it was possible was because of the brutalities that are inherent in chattel slavery and the things that were allowed and accepted, and even not just in schools, but just in general, I think it was hard for people's brains to compute that she would that this is a black woman, because you. All said, so because of the one drop rule, even though, by all visual cue like it, it basically says race is made up. And if you put that front and center, yeah, you have to start being like, okay, so how is she black? Like, how is she white? You know, so I wonder if that was also part of it. If, like, there's a lot of trickery. But at the heart of it, this is a story about how valuable race is. Yeah. Okay, last thing, title and cover, Master Slave Husband Wife, and then the cover is sort of green to yellow, and it's got pictures of them on the cover. What did you think of both of these things?

Jay Ellis 55:39

Yeah, I really liked the cover. I'm not sure why. I think I liked the cover, because I was fully thrown by her picture, because I was like, Oh, did he marry a white woman? Like, I was actually confused a little bit, like, you know what I mean? I think I was actually confused a little bit, um, so I think I was like, Oh, this is a story about, like, two people who don't look like, I think I was thinking it was something different. Title, um, interesting. It jumps at you. It grabs you. Yes, it does. They are all of those things, yes.

Traci Thomas 56:12

So you're giving it a solid, solid grade,

Jay Ellis 56:16

yeah,

Traci Thomas 56:17

okay, I'll give you my grades. Title. I love the title. I hate how many times and how the title showed up in the book. It would be like, and then they were now. They were no longer master slave. They were now only husband wife. I'm like, Okay, goodbye. I hate this. The title is great, but it shows up nine times in the book in those ways, including chapter headings. One is has master, slave, and then, like, a few chapters, husband, wife. And I was just like, Okay, we get it. We get it. The cover, I really like, but I almost wish their pictures weren't on the cover interesting. I just really like that the like art that's the background, and I love the fonts and everything.

Jay Ellis 57:01

But I love the steamboat in the corner.

Traci Thomas 57:03

Yeah, I do too. But I also like a version of the cover that just has their faces. I think I could like, but for some reason, like the way that the faces are sort of like floating in like a no man's land on the cover is just like a fair enough weird to me. Just like, what are these disembodied,

Jay Ellis 57:19

disembodied heads. Yeah, that's fair, yeah. But like,

Traci Thomas 57:23

I don't mind the pictures. I just I wish they were more incorporated somehow. Um, but I do, like, I think it's a pretty book, and I it caught my eye when it first came out, even though I didn't read it until now, it was on my like, list of books to read for the last year and a half because I was like, Ooh, I'm interested. Um, okay, this was great. Is there anything else you want to say before we get out of here? No, I'm good. This was awesome. This is okay. This was great. Everybody, wait, you haven't

Jay Ellis 57:49

I have one question. We didn't. We didn't ask this one question. Did you love the book?

Traci Thomas 57:54

I liked it. I liked it a lot. I enjoyed it a lot. I wouldn't say that I loved it, like, I don't know that I was, like, freaking out to read it, or, like, staying up all night to read it, but I learned a lot. It made me think a lot. I was very impressed with how well it was written and, like, how narrative it was. So it's, I definitely would say it's a five star read for me. But I don't know that I had the emotional feeling of like, Oh, I love this book, which I do get sometimes with these, like, intense narrative nonfictions. How about you?

Jay Ellis 58:25

It's a five star for me, for sure, I think the same thing. I wasn't like, I can't put this down. But I think for me, it was like, I think it was the education, to be quite honest, I think it was the learning of something where I'm like, Oh, I know what it is, and then I'm like, Oh, I have no idea what it is, or, yeah, or I only know a fraction of what it is. So I think it was that for me, where I was like, you know, it's all the stuff that we talked about up front. It's like, the everyday stuff that you're now learning about. And, like, I guess if you've been to namac, you kind of learn some of that stuff, because you start to you see all the artifacts, and you get a bit of an understanding of, like, what's what, what day to day life was like for some slaves, but our enslaved people rather, but, yeah, I would give it a five.

Traci Thomas 59:12

I've never heard someone say namac. I know you're talking about the African American history. Yeah, I've never heard it called that. I was like, namac. And then I was like, Oh, of course. I have been, and you do get a lot of this stuff, but yeah, I think the thing that is the most impressive about this book is, like, how much information is in it, for a person like me who's like, I feel like I know about this. Like I felt like I learned so much, and I really and it made me want to read more books of the time period for sure. Yeah, okay, speaking of books of the time period, another book that is of this exact same time period is called, did everyone have an imaginary friend or just me? It's about Jay Ellis. No, just kidding. It's about a totally different time period. But if you haven't read it yet, you must go out and get it. Is Jay's debut book. Book. It is about his life. It is a memoir about his childhood, very different energy. This is a good pairing, because you might need something light and fun and just like nostalgic, because that book is nostalgia 101, or like, not 101, nostalgia on 100 is what I should say. And you can get the book now. It is out in the world. Now you can also, if you haven't yet, still get Master Slave Husband Wife. But hurry up and catch up, people, and listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our September book club pick will be. Jay, thank you so much for doing this. This was really a treat.

Jay Ellis 1:00:35

No thank you for having me. This is exciting. This was fun.

Traci Thomas 1:00:37

Yay. And everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Jay Ellis for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Andrea pura and to Carla Bruce Eddings for helping to make this conversation possible. All right, now, what you all been waiting for time to announce our September book club pick. It is Toni Morrison month we are going to be reading Jazz. Yes, yes, yes. It is time for another Toni title, and it's another classic. Jazz is set in 1926 and it's all about jilted love, obsession, self discovery, maybe even a little murder. You'll have to listen to our September 4 episode to find out who our guest will be for our September 25 discussion of Jazz. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks. Pack and you can check out my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from The Stacks. Follow us on social media, @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out the website at thestackspodcast.com this episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree and Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin Mccright, and our theme music is from tegirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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