Ep. 337 We Love an Ethical Scam with Laci Mosley

Written By Megan Caballero

Actor and comedian Laci Mosley (iCarly, A Black Lady Sketch Show) joins The Stacks to discuss her new book, Scam Goddess: Lessons from a Life of Cons, Grifts, and Schemes, a hilarious and subversive essay collection inspired by her podcast of the same name. Today, we talk about the scams that shape our world and why Laci wanted to write this book. Laci offers up her takes on the different types of scams, why not all scams are bad, and how scamming has shaped her career and personal life.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our next book club pick will be.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by comedian and actor Laci Mosley to discuss her new book, Scam goddess, lessons from a Life of Cons, Grifts, and schemes. Laci is known for her award-winning podcast, Scam Goddess, and Laci's book dives into the art of the scam.

The book is part memoir sharing scams from her real life, as well as giving us a deep dive into some small-scale hustles and jaw-dropping big-time cons. Laci and I talked today about how she approached writing this book and the vulnerability she was able to find on the page, as well as Laci's theory that not all scams are in fact bad. Don't forget our book club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, September 25th with Professor Eve Dunbar.

Quick reminder, everything we talk about on today's episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love The Stacks and you want inside access to it, you should head to patreon.com/thestacks and join The Stacks Pack. It's just $5 a month and you get to be part of the best bookish community ever in the history of the universe.

You get to join us on our Discord, be part of our monthly virtual book club meetups, you get bonus episodes, and also equally important, you get to know that by joining The Stacks Pack, you make it possible for me to make the show every single week. A fun perk of joining The Stacks Pack is that you also get a shout out on this very podcast. So here's a huge thank you to our newest members, Andrea Moldovan, Sandy, MGM, Joseph Hardy, Rose, and Michelle.

Thank you all so much. And for those of you who are interested in supporting the show, but maybe don't want to be a part of a community online, you should check out my newsletter Unstacked. You go to tracytomis.substack.com.

You can keep up with all of my hot takes, my bookish opinions, and you can find out whatever else I have going on. Plus, this also supports The Stacks. All right.

Now it's time for my conversation with Laci Mosley.

All right, everybody, I'm so excited. I am joined today by Laci Mosley. She is the author of a brand new book called Scam Goddess, lessons from a Life of Cons, Grifts, and schemes.

You might know Laci as an actress. You might know Laci as a podcast host. You might know Laci as an internet person.

I don't know. I don't know how you know Laci, but I know that Laci is a fucking blast. And I'm so excited that you're here.

So welcome to The Stacks.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm thrilled. This is fun because I got to do your show a few years ago when we did that like grifting roommate or something. And so now we get to talk about you.

You're in the hot seat this time. So I'm thrilled. In about 30 seconds or so, will you just tell folks about this book?

This book is a hybrid of real true crime stories and also my life and how I kind of fell in love with scams or became a scammer. I've worked for several drug fronts.

I've been in a shooting. And it's a wild ride, but it's a fun wild ride.

I had, I have to be honest. I'll be really honest with you. I was a little bit like, do I want to read this book?

Do I care? Like, I love the podcast. I think Laci is fun, but like, do I care?

I really liked this book. I had such a fun time with it. There were moments where I was laughing out loud.

I got to listen to it on the audio book, which you read so perfectly. I was so impressed by how you sort of weaved your own memoir with the idea of like scams in your life, like friend scams or like roommate scams or relationship scams. And then also brought in like true, like Elizabeth Finch, my personal favorite scammer.

Like I loved how you did that. And I'm wondering, was that kind of idea of taking these three separate things or like two and a half separate things and putting them together, was that always the plan for the book or was that something you kind of had to figure out how you were going to make this all work?

No, in my outline, it was always the plan. Simply because I think when people write, quote unquote, celebrity memoirs, unless you've lived a full life, like one of my favorite memoirs is Diane Keaton's. It's about her relationship with her mother.

And it kind of inspired me because it was like two-folded. It's about her life, but it's also about her relationship with her mother. And then I also really loved Diane Carroll's The Legs of the Last to Go.

And I was blessed to at least meet her once before she passed. And I loved how in Diane Carroll's memoir, there's a lot of really sad, just like racism, just like the things that she had to deal with to survive. But she made it funny.

There's like a part in her memoir where she talks about singing at some club, and there were white people there who didn't want her there, and someone threw a shoe at her on stage.

Oh shit.

And you would think this would be the most traumatic thing. She was like, they threw that shoe at me, and I can't my own finish my set.

I was like...

And I feel like as black people, like that's kind of the way. It's like everything's serious, but it's a little un-serious too.

yes, yes.

And when I was speaking to someone at another outlet, they called my book like heavy, but somehow light, and I hadn't thought of it that way. And then I remembered the memoirs that I loved, and I was like, oh, yeah, it is kind of heavy, but you have to make the best of things. And especially as a queer black woman, like I had to scam to get where I am, you know?

Right.

So you figure out an angle, you figure out a way to do it.

Right. And I feel like scamming sort of like sets, like the idea of scamming, the way we think about it in the culture now, it is sort of like always a little bit of a joke, right? Like it's like, oh, you got scammed.

So I feel like that framework provides so much levity as the reader goes in. It's like, okay, we're going to read about like this person's life. But obviously if she's framing her life as a scam, like we're probably going to have a good time.

And I feel like you really like match that energy with what's in the book. I definitely think the book has depth. I don't know if I would say it's heavy because I like, but it feels real.

Like it doesn't feel like you're bullshitting us. Like I'm like, okay, we're getting like a real look at Laci. And I feel like you are both funny and have depth to you.

So that shows up in the book for sure. How were you, I guess, why, why did you want to write a book? Did you want to write a book or did they come to you?

Because I know sometimes people, they come to you. sometimes they come, yes.

And then it kind of felt like a scam too. Because I was like, I'm not an authoress, like, but if y'all want me to be, I'll be one. I'll figure it out.

And I think a lot of life is figuring things out. And I think a lot of people run away from challenges because they feel like they're not prepared for them. When in fact, we're all just figuring it out.

Yeah.

Like when I was a kid, I thought my parents were God. I thought, I mean, they taught me how to eat and walk and talk. And I still love them.

And I still very much think that they are God. But I learned when I became an adult that they were human beings who were just trying to figure it out like everybody else. And so I want people to feel empowered to figure it out for themselves.

And if people aren't giving you what you want, scam to get what you want.

Okay. Will you define a scam for us? How do you think about what a scam is?

So it's two-folded. On one side, on the negative side, I think a scam is when, and it's very nebulous. It's when two people have an interaction and one person walks away feeling duped.

Okay.

And the reason I say it that way is because like, okay, let's think about like a sugar daddy or a sugar they them or a sugar, you know, baby woman, whatever, you know?

Yeah.

Where it's like somebody is paying the way for the other person, for their company or their looks or whatever. If both of those people know that they've entered that relationship and it's like, oh, I'm getting what I want and you're getting what you want, that's not a scam. But let's say you are a person of means and you marry or engage with someone and you really think that they're just loving you for you, that's a scam.

Because both people aren't in agreement.

Okay, but what if the person, the sugar parent, the sugar authority figure, what if they don't know that they're being duped? Is it still a scam?

That's what I'm saying. If they don't know, if they're not in on the joke of like, okay, I know I'm not the sexiest beast or the person that they want to be with, but I can provide a lifestyle, that's not a scam. But if you...

But what if they think the person... Like, what if you are not self-aware enough to know you're being scammed? It's still a scam, right?

yes. If you think that this baddie is with you and they're just with you because of who you are, that's a scam.

Okay. So it's not fully dependent on the self-awareness of the scammy or the scammed. I don't know that correct.

I think it is fully dependent on the scammy. Like, I have walked into scam situations where I'm like, this is definitely a scam, but I'm going to do it. You know, I've done pyramid scheme, acting, you know, performance classes that I'm not going to talk about.

I've done, you know, honestly, I could have been killed by the Craigslist killer in the beginning of my acting career because I just wanted to perform. So I was like, oh, this is back alley. That's where the opportunity is in the dark.

And I meet a man in a trench coat. Why not? You know, so it really depends on what two people walk away with.

OK, that's what I define a scam as. And I know it's nebulous. I know it's like vague.

But I also think that you can be a good scammer. Like you can find ways to scam in a system that is not created for you. And as a queer black woman, this system was not created for me.

So I had to find ways to be successful. You know, we would be cold switching, learning how to like, oh, give all the compliments. Like the beginning of my book is literally, I went missing when I was five, LOL.

And how I just hung out with people all day and tried to pretend I was like with them. I don't want to give too much away, but it's like at an early age, I realized how to mirror and how to perform in a way that would get me what I wanted, even if I didn't look like what people wanted me to.

Right. So I mean, and in the book we see, as we read, it's like we're all scammers maybe. And you have a thing where you're like, it's not all scamming is bad.

Right.

And I feel like, at least in my brain, like another way to think about scamming, if you are a person who doesn't want to feel like you're a scammer, even if you are, it's like it's performance. It's knowing what to perform in which situation. And a lot of the scams that are like, not like I'm stealing your money, but like the scam that's like, I'm going to be nice to the boss's wife so that I get a promotion, like that scam.

That scam is just like, how do I perform person who's interested in whatever Michelle has to say? Which clearly I'm not. I don't want to eat a bacon wrapped melon with you ma'am, but I'm going to pretend until you tell your partner that I am the greatest employee you've ever met, and I should definitely be the CEO next.

Yeah, and Traci, that's called mirroring. It's like people like to see themselves. And so when you do that, it makes them more comfortable with you faster.

Right, right, right. And in your definition would be a scam, because Michelle thinks that I love her. But really, Michelle, it's not about you.

Is there a line for you? How do we know the difference between a good scam and a bad? Like a good scam, not a successful scam, but like a morally acceptable scam versus like a morally unacceptable scam?

Don't push down.

Okay.

If people are in need and you're taking from them, if people are vulnerable and you're taking advantage of them, that is a bad scam.

Bad scam.

Now, if it's a corporation that's doing wage theft, then do your wage theft back.

Okay?

Right. I personally believe if I go to a self-checkout and I have to do my own work, then yeah, I'm not going to scan all the items because I work here now. these are my wages.

What do you mean?

That's a good, I've never done that scam. I'm too scared. I'm going to get caught.

Do you have, okay, do you have fear when you scam? Because I'm too scared of everything. I'm always scared I'm going to get in trouble.

And I feel like that prevents me from pulling off some of my best ideas.

yes, because if you have fear, you're not going to be able to do it. I always say walk into any scam and look at everything like it's the most ghetto shit you've ever seen in your life. Like the people who look at everything like it's beneath them, no one notices them.

But if you're looking around and you're hoping that people don't notice you, then you're sticking out like a target.

This is good. I'm in scam boot camp right now. I can't wait to fucking scam everybody after this interview.

Okay, in the book, one of the things that comes up so many times is that you are a people pleaser. Do you think being a people pleaser makes it easier or harder to scam? Easier.

To scam someone else. Easier?

But it also makes it easier for me to be scammed. And I talk about that as well. Like the times that I've been scammed because as I've been doing the television show Scam goddess, which there's only so much I can say about it, but it made a lot of things real for me in the true crime space because we really wanted to do it in a way that is earnest.

I feel like everyone these days is reading a headline or maybe scamming an article and then they're making judgments and they're, you know, you can feel smarter than someone or safer than someone and when you really meet people and get to know the environment they were in, the town that they were in, like the culture, it gives you a full breadth of how the scams happened versus just seeing a headline and thinking people are stupid. And one of the worst things that I think about true crime, and I call what I do true con because we're not talking about murders, is that everyone always thinks it could never happen to me and that's why it happens to you because you ignore all of the red flags coming at you because there's no possible way that this could happen to me. And so I really want to open that up with this book that yeah it's a scary thing to think that anything can happen to you but it's also freeing and it gives you the opportunity to open your eyes to things that are not sounding right you know even if you don't have a friend to talk to or you're too ashamed to talk to about someone but it's like okay Bruno Mars DMed me and said he needed $400 just say it out loud does that sound right yeah right it it to me it does I feel like Bruno really wants to be friends with me I believe it I would I do too I believe it Bruno if you need anything I'm of ales okay I'm here for you bank accounts always open I definitely have more money than Bruno Mars for sure you do because on the podcast the theme song also includes cons and grifters do you have different definitions of those things is scam the umbrella term and they're they're all under it or are they all their own different thing just like any other profession there's different types of scammers okay so you have like your love fraud people okay which I hate them the most yes, because everyone needs love, and I hate that you're being-

It's very bottom feeder.

Yeah, I hate that you're pretending to engage in someone's life, and then being like, oh my god, I have a hospital bill, can you send me $10,000? Hate it, hate it. You know, you have, you're embezzlers.

They're working in the corporate world, and then they see a little avenue where it's like, oh, I'm going to say we needed $100,000 for stamps. We didn't. I put that in my pocket.

That's like Sandy Jenkins in Texas at the Fruitcake Factory. And then you have your Ponzi Schemers. So they're selling leggings to mom.

Moldy leggings, moldy, nasty, ugly to start with leggings.

But they're also doing gift circles, and it's just feeding in, honestly, Bitcoin, Ponzi Scheme. So the more the people, and I hate those kinds of scams, because I feel like the person who is like the little guy gets in last once it's spread out. And now you're just someone who's feeding into the Ponzi, and you're not even going to be at the top of the pyramid, so you're not going to make any money.

Yeah, you're just recouping losses for everyone else. And then you have people who are like fraudsters in different ways where it's like a lying grift. these are actually my favorite people.

I love someone with a story on the street like, Oh, my baby is locked in the car, and my grandma is at the hospital, and I need $45. My favorite. And I have played into those.

I gave a woman money in college because she said that her mother was in the hospital and she couldn't pick her daughter up from daycare. And for some reason in my spirit, I was like, I'm a broke college student, but let me go to the ATM and give this woman at least like $40. That's all I had.

And I later found out in the campus blotter that if you said no to her, she had a brick in her purse and she would hit you over the head.

Oh my God. So you were scammed, you were scammed, but like in a good way, even if it was a bad scam, like you, you, you played in. It was the right one.

Yeah.

I think people who are dancing on the subway, cause I once heard them arguing in New York about missing a train and they were like, I can't believe we missed that train son. They're like, that was like $600 son, like what, what, what you, what you doing? And I was like, y'all making $600 a train ride?

But that's not a scam, that's work.

They're not, they're not scamming.

They're, you know what you get when you put money into that hat and they're saying, I'm going to dance.

But all scamming is work.

Okay, fair. But I feel like that one does it, there's no imbalance of expectation and delivery.

True.

Like you're paying for what you see, what you see is what you get. If you give them $10 for dancing over your head in the subway, it's honest work, I would say. honest as any work is, I guess.

I hate governmental scams.

Sure.

Why can Uncle Sam shake me down for random amounts of money that I have to guess? And what's being done with it to help my community? Nothing.

What about the racial scam artist? We've got a racial dolezal. We also have the Grifter, Sean King.

I know that episode. He is now a Muslim, so there's probably going to be another episode coming out. But yeah.

Those are fun. Those are fun ones. Where the person is the scam.

They're fun, but they're also not because they're taking advantage of real activism. yes, that. I mean, I understand.

It's weird with Sean because it's kind of good and kind of bad.

It's funny. It's funny, but it's also so fucked up. I feel like it's like we need to laugh at it because it's actually extremely depressing, right?

He's also aggregating a lot of information and that white people would never look at.

That's true.

And so it's like twofold for me. My thing is, is that Sean is always trying to sell like hoodies and t-shirts and all these types of things that he never actually gives people. He raised money to climb seven mountains, never climbed a single one.

He had a fake church and they used to meet every Sunday. And then he was like, what if we did church once a month? Because he started getting famous in the activism space.

He's just a serial entrepreneur. That's what I call him. Like when one grift goes awry, or too many people get abreast of it, and he has me blocked on everything.

I never tagged him, but he has me blocked on everything.

He heard about y'all.

But like they pivot. Like Donald Trump is a scammer who pivots. He had a university, he was doing real estate, he was trying to sell burial plots on his property.

Like, he's, you know, they're always pivoting. Those are kind of my favorite scammers, even though they're bad, because they're career criminals. It's their life.

That's what I like too. And there's never a dull moment. Like, you're never done with Sean King, right?

Like it's like, okay, he's, we haven't heard from him in two months.

He's cooking up something.

Can't wait to see what's next. Like, I'm ready. yes, I personally really like those scams, even though, yes, obviously they're bad, but like they're, they're my favorite, I think most entertaining ones.

I think the what, I think you're right. The love scams are the hardest ones. They're just like, you just feel sad.

It's like, this is so, so mean.

But recently I covered a woman who might be my favorite scammer. I wish I could remember her name right now, but not because of how like newsworthy it was, but because what she did was so altruistic. She was an immigrant.

She got on immigrant Facebooks and they realized that they could get like legal people's Ubers and for a small fee, they would drive Uber for these people in their name using their social security and get paid back. She brought everybody into this scam. She started making up fake social security numbers because Uber wasn't checking, especially during the pandemic, because Uber Eats was like super high.

She got the whole hood paid.

We love this.

I'm like, don't send that lady to jail.

Like, send her to the White House. She's got a plan.

An innovator.

She's ready. She can be the secretary of labor. We need her.

Get these people jobs.

And she was just taking a commission. She wasn't even robbing these people who were working for her. Like, she was giving people work who over here couldn't get work because they didn't have social security numbers.

So I don't think that every scam is bad. There's just different industries.

Right, right, right. And in your book, you would tell the story about a Hollywood experience that you had, which is another kind of scammer that I am really fascinated by, which is the person who pretends to, who outkicks their fake resume. Right?

It's like everybody sort of indulges a little bit here and there on their resume. Like, yes, I have experience as a whatever. But it's the person who's like, like an Elizabeth Finch.

Not only am I a TV writer, but I am also all these other things and qualified to do X, Y, and Z. The person who's like, yes, I am a racehorse jockey because I once did a pony ride at seven. Like, and you have a person like that in your book on a movie that you worked on, which is so iconic.

It's such an iconic kind of scam. It's just like, it's like, what's, what's that fucking girl that everybody, that white girl everybody was obsessed with? I can never remember her name.

Caroline Calloway.

yes, yes. It's the Caroline Calloway kind of scam.

Yeah, we got invites on Twitter. It ended up in news articles. So yeah, you and her, you and me, her and Jamila Jamil.

Yeah.

Okay, I got to go back and read that. But I do feel like that kind of scam is a really entertaining one because it's just like, you did what? You thought you could get away with what?

And I love the audacity. And that's what scammers have. And that's what I want people to take from this book.

I'm not saying go out and do crime, but take a little confidence from scammers. Like a lot of us have imposter syndrome and think that we can't do what we're doing or have these little secret doubts in our head. But like live a little bit more like a scammer.

They're making it up as they go. Everybody is. And so that's what I want people to take from this book and some little scam kit tools that you can use on your own.

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned being creative is one of your biggest scams. Why do you feel that way?

Because I made everything up out of thin air and now I make money on it.

Yeah.

And that feels weird. Like if I was an electrician, like electrician poles existed before I was born. You know, if I was a plumber, they had toilets before I was born that needed to be plunged or drain owed.

But I was just like, I'm going to make a career out of, I don't know, nothing. I'm going to do make-em-ups for a living. And so that's kind of a scam.

I mean, Hollywood, as you mentioned in the book, is such a big scam. The whole thing is, it's all, it's actually like all of the best kinds of scams together in one industry. Like you have the I light on my resume scam person is always in Hollywood.

You definitely have the continuing different kinds of scam person is a huge figure in Hollywood. You have the make-em-up-as-you-go scam is huge in Hollywood. You have all the like institutional powers, so fucked up scams in Hollywood.

What else?

It is an amalgamation of every single scam. You also have the pay to play scam in Hollywood.

Of course, the pay to play scam.

Headshots, classes, acting coaches. Oh, I even talk about in the book, there's a whole part about every Hollywood scam I participated in.

Yeah, in the real life.

And I hope that if you're an actor, if you want to be an actor, at least you should pick up this book just to read that chapter, because I am going to tell you the whole truth. And another thing that I feel like happens in memoirs or in books is that people try to clean up certain aspects. And I won't lie, I did the same, but I did it for my family.

I'm not going to snitch on my family. Like, I'm sorry, they're all alive and I can't go to the reunion and get, you know, jumped.

Right, right, right, right, right. And it's maybe not your story to tell.

I mean, it is because I lived it, but it's not because they're alive. Right, right, right, right. And so I'm going to be respectful, I'm black.

But a lot of actors, I feel like, or even performers or people who write books, they tell you they have an answer for something. There is no place in this book where I say I have any answers. I have lessons, I have advice that I don't take all the time.

That's very good. And I'm not going to pretend that it's going to fix you. But I think it's something where you can, it's almost like horoscopes.

You know, take what you want, leave what you don't. And that's what I wanted to do instead of be like, oh, this is the way, this is the cure, this is how you get fixed. Like, no, that doesn't exist.

Right. Okay, wait, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

All right. We're back. I want to talk a little bit about the cover and the title.

Did you always know you wanted to call the book Scam goddess? Was that always the plan? yes.

Then what about the cover? Were you involved at all in it? We recently did an episode of this show, a bonus episode, where we talked about book covers, and I showed your cover and a few other covers to a book cover expert, and she was like, that is a great cover.

She was instantly loved it, which I agree. I mean, it is a great cover. It's so catchy.

I personally am a big fan of red and pink together, which we get on this cover. One of my favorite color combos. But tell me about the cover process.

Were you involved? Did they just send it over?

I was heavily involved, but I will have to say that Shannonette Hachette, she came up with the red and pink, and it was the first pitch that she had. I sent several pitches over about the colors, and they were wrong. Like, she was right.

The one thing we fought about was having my face on the cover because it's a memoir.

Yeah.

And my biggest thing with that is that, statistically, people don't buy books with black people's faces on them. Yeah.

We talked about this on that episode.

Yeah. So I was like, and they were like, but it's your book, and it's your fans, and it's this. And I was like, no, I'm not putting my black ass face on the book.

And so we settled on my eye in black and white.

I love it. I was like, okay, can we get 50% of the face? You get about 20%.

What about 10%? Okay, 10%. You get an eye.

I was like, you get an eyeball. And then at the end, there's the author photo, and it's like, I'm black. Gotcha, bitch.

This is my next scam. Scam. You read a Black Lady book, and you didn't even know.

You didn't even, and you liked it, admit it. yes. What about, what was the hardest part of writing this book for you?

I think the hardest part actually was reading the audiobook.

Why? Say more.

I had been away from the book for like maybe a year. While, you know, we're doing editing and things that were a little more nuanced and nitpicky.

Right.

But then I had to sit down for three, seven hour sessions and read the audiobook. And I remember Jerry, this lovely man, I had used the tissue to just wipe my nose, but it was the last one. And he goes, oh no, no, no, I have to go grab you some more tissues.

And I was like, I don't need no more tissues. Like I'm not going to cry. Like, like I'm good.

He was like, no, no, no, let me go get you the tissues. So he goes and gets the tissues. And I didn't cry during that session.

Actually at points I laughed and I was like, ooh, I'm funny.

But then there is a certain chapter in the book where I cried and I had to relive these parts of my life. And I would say that I am a different person from when I wrote this book. Some of it the same, some of it worse.

But I think that was the hardest part, was like having to take a look. Like I'm very introspective, too introspective. So I don't have a difficult time being critical of myself.

It was just that like the things that I've lived through that I kind of brush off my shoulder, like having to read them and be like, oh, you should have been a little more traumatized.

Right, right, right, right, right, right. That's so interesting. I mean, you read the audiobook so well.

It's such an engaging listen. Like I remember like cooking dinner and listening and like laughing and being so like, and going back and being like, wait, what did you say? I missed it.

Like, let me go back and hear this. And just like really, really liking it. So for people at home, if you're not sure if you want to do the print or the audio, you can do both, but I vouch for the audio.

Because sometimes I don't vouch for the audio. sometimes it's not very good.

I love audiobook reviews before I did my audiobook. Because a lot of times when they're done by actors, they're like too actory and too dry-hearted. And I also took vocal lessons before, because I have vocal fry.

Like this is how. So it was like speak from the front of the mouth, make things calm, make them, but like also emote when necessary. It doesn't sound like what I'm doing right now.

But like I took vocal lessons and read a lot of nasty reviews about other audiobooks and was like, okay, I won't do those things. Yeah.

That'll be your next book. What not to do when recording an audiobook. I want to talk a little bit about the writing process.

How did you make time to write? You're such a busy person. How often were you writing?

Like how many hours a day do you listen to music? Do you watch TV? Are there snacks and beverages?

Are there rituals? Like how does the magic happen?

So again, I'm not a scammer and a lot of people lie about this. So I'm going to be honest. I was shooting iCarly Lopez vs Lopez.

I was recording for Little Demon and then I was flying back and forth to Atlanta to shoot The Outlaws on Netflix. I was also recording the podcast. So I didn't have the bandwidth to just sit down and type.

Marina Shiffrin was my ghostwriter. And what we did was is each week for four hours, I would get on the phone with her and I wrote the whole outline so we knew where we were going.

Got it.

She would ask me questions from the outline and I would tell her stories and she would dictate them. Then she would send me the chapter. I would edit it and so I did write my book but I dictated my book.

And I think a lot of people lie about this and I don't know why because I don't think that it's insincere if your book is dictated. It's just like help.

Yeah. I think some people lie about it. I think that's more old school though.

Nowadays, many people that I've talked to who have used a ghostwriter, they talk about it pretty openly. I think also because I think what I've discovered is a lot of people who use ghostwriters are from other parts of the entertainment industry where collaboration is really celebrated. And in writing and in books, even though it is a really collaborative art form, when you get to the team at your publisher and your marketing and your editor and all of this, we think of it as being like a single solitary thing.

And so there's this weird like shame around using someone else, but really it is how everything is made. There's no industry, there's no creative industry where it's just one person does everything. And I feel like, you know, I feel like actors or like TV people or even musicians, whatever, they understand.

It's like, I'm a great singer. I cannot play the tambourine. So why would I not just bring in a tambourine player, right?

Like I am a great speaker. I have a great story to tell. Why wouldn't I just bring in a person whose job is to actually put the structure to the book or like to actually get it on the page?

And I think a lot of creatives like yourself do use ghostwriters because it makes the most sense of like, these are my skill sets. And then there's another person who can literally do this job. Why wouldn't I use it?

But a lot of people talk about ghostwriters.

I will say in my book, there's a phrase that comes up a lot, a few times. And it's the only thing I did not dictate. And it's top of the pops.

That is so Marina, I don't even know what that means.

I don't even remember hearing that.

I don't even know what it means. I remember hearing it because I was doing the audio book and I was like, I say that I said everything else, but I say that in the physical book, but it's not in the audio book. It's in the audio book.

Cause I read it.

And I was like, but you know, some people's audio books are like not their book. Like leslie jones, her book is like 200 pages, but her audio book is like 15 hours because she just like goes off the cuff.

Yeah, they wouldn't let me. They made me stick pretty heavily to script. But I will say that I fell in love with my ghost writer, Marina Schiffern, so much that to finish the book, to bring it home, I flew to Portland and like was with her.

And that's how we finished the book and hugged and cried. And we still talk like she's fantastic. So I love that.

You mentioned there are some things that are not in the book, that you're glad are not in the book, like around your family. Are there any things that are not in the book that you wish could have been?

Okay, this one's kind of like dark. That's why it's probably not in the book. And maybe I'm glad it's not.

We love dark around here.

sometimes you get what you pray for and it doesn't look like what you thought it would. And also, I think I would have wanted to say that sometimes achievement can be a scam. Like, I think we all have to start looking at achievement and happiness in different ways.

If you wake up with breath in your body and you're active and your plants are healthy and like anything can be a moment to celebrate. And I wish that I had known that and I... That's my scam is that I still don't know that.

I'm still working way too hard. And some days I think about for what?

Like, yeah, yeah, do you? I mean, so you people, a lot of people know you from iCarly. And then there's also a lot of people who know you from Scam goddess and like from talking about Sean King.

That was my entry point to your work. But I'm wondering if you've noticed like a difference in the way that people speak to you or when they meet you, if they're like apprehensive because they're like, is she scamming me? Or if they feel like if it's like a different energy you get from people who know you from different parts of your work life, because you've got so many things going on.

It's actually really positive. I've had a lot of people come up to me and say, I didn't get scammed because I heard this episode, or I told my mom about these Facebook links not to click on, and so she didn't get scammed. Or when I get emails like that, it really warms my heart that like, yeah, we're making jokes.

Yeah, we're making fun of scammers, never people who are exploited by them. I'm very careful about that. And also careful about judging people who have been scammed, and doing this television show, and meeting people who are exploited and scammed, and scammers completely changed my DNA about all of this, like learning the full picture, not just like the articles that, you know, we giggle at.

honestly, it kind of broke me. Why? Because it's way more insidious than what you see on paper.

Like these people didn't just get, you know, approached on the street and were like, hey, do you want to give me $50,000? Like, it's like years of building a relationship, feeling like, like imagine your best friend, like completely ripping you off and doing you dirty, like after years of knowing them, it's a lot of loss and a lot of pain. But at the same time, we had a lot of fun making fun of the scammers.

So it's still like, it's just kind of a roller coaster. Like sometimes you're laughing and then sometimes you're like, oh shit, now we're crying. So having people come up to me from the podcast has been really positive.

The emails have been really positive of just like people telling me that they got a weird email or someone tried to scam them or they got very close to a scam and then they remembered something I said and then they didn't fall for it. So protecting people, that has been the biggest gift.

Is there any word that you can never spell correctly on the first try?

necessity.

Ooh, good one. That's a hard one. necessary is also truly hard for me.

Yeah. Do you know what comes next for you now that the book is done?

Actually, in three days, I'm going to Ireland to shoot a television show for Fox. So that's all I can say.

Great. We love it. For people who love Scam goddess, the book, what are some other books that maybe you would recommend to them that are maybe in conversation with your work?

I honestly don't know.

I have one which just popped into my head thinking about what you were just saying about the building of the relationship. There's this new book that came out that's called There Is No Ethan, and it's a catfish story of three women who are catfished by the same guy, Ethan, and the book really builds.

Wasn't that off TikTok?

It might have been. I don't know. She's like a psychologist.

It's a pretty crazy story. The Ethan person in the story was so manipulative. It was actually like listening to it.

I was like, am I being gaslit right now? Like, I know Ethan is not who Ethan says he is. And even I am like, what the fuck?

Like, stop being mean to us. So I feel like it's a good pairing because it's like, it really, because it's written by the woman, one of the women who was in the relationship with him. So you really do get the sense of like how painful and like how much grief also goes along with the uncovering of these stories.

Okay, last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?

Bernie Madoff.

Oh, king of the scams.

Like literally, like lifetime serial scammer. And I wish I could have dinner with him and just know how he kept it up for so long. I think he's so fun.

People don't even know how goofy he was. Like one time the FCC was coming to like check his books, and they called ahead, like someone called ahead and gave him a tip. So they cooked the books literally, and they had to print them out.

And so they printed them out, and then obviously they're hot and the FCC is coming. So they're going to know if the book is hot, that like they just printed it. So they put them in the freezer, and then they took them out of the freezer, and they threw them around the office, like a football to make them look old.

yes, he was doing the goofiest stuff. I just, I love him.

There's a new Bernie Madoff book that just came out this year, like a biography of him, and the guy who wrote it, I believe, like interviewed him in prison.

No.

Yeah, it's called like Bernie Madoff, A Life or something like that. But the guy who wrote it has like some of the last interviews he ever did or something.

Okay, that's my next read.

Okay, it just came out. I want to say it's from Simon and Schuster anyways. Okay, that's a brilliant answer.

It's on my list to read that book too, so we can talk about it once we both do. yes. Everybody at home, you can get your copy of Scam goddess.

I don't know why I'm holding it up like they're going to see it, but it's here. You can get your copy of Scam goddess now, wherever you get your books, physical, audio, whatever that is for you, ebook, it all exists. And Laci, thank you so much for being here.

Traci, thank you so much for having me.

And everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

yes.

All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Laci Mosley for being my guest. I'd also like to say thank you to Julia Wilson and Brooklyn Nelson for helping to make this conversation possible.

Don't forget, The Stacks Book Club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison, and we will be discussing the book on wednesday, September 25th with Eve Dunbar. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join The Stacks Pack. You can check out my sub stack at tracythomas.substack.com.

Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media, at The Stacks Pod on Instagram threads and TikTok, and at The Stacks Pod underscore on Twitter, and you can check out our website, thestackspodcast.com.

This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCright, and our theme music is from tegirages. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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