Ep. 342 Evangelizing Abortion Rights with Jessica Valenti

Written By Megan Caballero

Author and activist Jessica Valenti joins The Stacks to discuss her latest book, Abortion: Our Bodies, Their Lies, and the Truths We Use to Win. In today’s conversation, we explore why the left struggles to effectively talk about abortion and the impact of abortion bans on maternal healthcare. Jessica explains the significance of “states' rights” in this debate, why she believes compromise around abortion is impossible, and how her  Abortion, Every Day newsletter differs from the book.

The Stacks Book Club pick for October is The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead. We will discuss the book on October 30th with Franklin Leonard returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am so excited to welcome Jessica Valenti to the show. Jessica is a journalist, feminist author and activist known for her influential work on gender politics and reproductive rights, her latest book, abortion, our bodies, their lies and the truths we use to win, offers a powerful exploration of the fight for reproductive freedom. Today, Jessica and I talk about why she wanted to write this book and how it was influenced by her sub stack. We talk about what tools people can take into the real world when having conversations about abortion, and we talk about what all this new anti abortion legislation is really about. Don't forget, our book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, October 30 with Franklin Leonard. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, please head over to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack for just $5 a month. You get to be part of the best bookish community. You get to join our Discord. Come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get bonus episodes, and you get to know by joining the stacks pack. You make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Another perk is that you get a shout out on this very show. So here's a special shout out to some of our newest members of the stacks pack, Jean Kawahara, Sadiq, vofana, Courtney, Johnson and Julie Sally. Thank you all so much. And listeners, if you're sitting there and you're thinking, I want to support the stacks, but I don't really want to be on a discord, whatever that is, well, you can subscribe to my newsletter. It's called unstacked at Traci thomas.substack.com you can get updates with what I've got going on. You can hear my hot takes on books and pop culture. And by doing that, you also get to support the stacks. So head to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Jessica Valenti.

All right, everybody. I'm so excited today I am joined by Jessica Valenti. Her new book is called abortion, our bodies, their lies and the truths we use to win. I have to just say it is exactly the book that you want when you're going to those conversations with those people, and you know exactly who those and they are. But Jessica, welcome to the stacks. Thank

Jessica Valenti 2:46

you for having me, and I'm so glad to hear you say that that was exactly the hope. So that means a lot. Yes.

Traci Thomas 2:51

I mean, let's like, we can start with just like, a little bit about the book, but I want to talk about audience desperately, so let's just start with, like, 30 seconds or so will you tell folks about abortion? Sure,

Jessica Valenti 3:03

the book is based on the last two plus years of reporting I've done on abortion for a daily newsletter that I keep called abortion every day, where I'm really tracking every single thing that's happening with abortion rights, whether it's, you know, bans and policy or anti abortion strategy, or the really terrible horror stories that we're hearing come out of anti choice states. And there's so much there. And the hope with the newsletter was to really provide a little bit of order to the chaos. And so with the book, I wanted to do the same thing, but sort of exactly as you said, give folks a tool for these conversations and sort of give them the information, the context, the language that they need to go out and evangelize for abortion rights. Because I hear from so many people, young women, especially, that they care so much about this issue that they really want to be out doing something, but that they feel not as confident as they would like to be. And so the hope with the book is that it will arm them with all of all of that stuff, all of the information, all of the confidence that they need to go out and and have the conversations that they want to be having. Yeah?

Traci Thomas 4:22

I mean, I think it does exactly that. One of the reasons that I wanted to have you on this month is, obviously, there's this election coming up, not just a little one, but, yeah, just a small little thing, like just a few things are on the ballot. I don't know, but so on this show, we've sort of focused the last three weeks on election issues. And I, you know, there's so many, right? And I was like, I'm not sure what what I wanted to do. So I've been reading a lot of books that are sort of in it, and as soon as I started your book, I was like, okay, Jessica has to come on the show, because, like, this is exactly the thing. And so my question for you is, like you mentioned early in the book, you know, there's like, are you preaching to the choir? And. You say, No, I'm not preaching to the choir. I'm arming the choir. And I want to know if you can talk a little bit about this idea of, like, echo chamber, and how people are sort of use that pejoratively, and why you think it's actually powerful to sort of speak in an echo chamber. Yeah,

Jessica Valenti 5:15

no. I mean, listen, that's my entire job. And this is something I think about a lot as an opinion writer, or someone who's been, you know, writing columns and feminist books for a really long time, I'm really well aware that there's not going to be like some magical moment with a conservative who reads a column of mine, who reads my book, and they change their mind automatically, right? Sometimes it happens. It you know, it can right? But that's not really what tends to happen. What tends to happen is that someone who is already on board reads something I've written, and it articulates for them. It gives them the language that they need to go out and to change that person's mind, that uncle, that father in law, that roommate, whoever it is, because that's how people's minds get changed, right? It's through their personal connections, through their family, through their friends, through those sort of ongoing conversations. And so that is who I am trying to reach. I am trying to arm the choir and give them everything that they need so that they can go out and change people's hearts and minds. And so to me, it's really incredibly important. And the other thing is, especially in a moment like this one, I think, is having that commiseration and feeling like you're not alone in this, you know? I think it's really easy when you're reading these horror stories, right, to feel, am I crazy? Am I the only one who is so furious about this, or am I the only one who sees what's happening? And I hear this from readers all the time, and so I think to channel some of that anger, to just be able to be in community with people who are feeling the same way that you do, is incredibly important, incredibly powerful, and helps people care about this issue another day. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 7:03

we were going to talk about this later, but since you brought it up, do you find that there's any like, particularly effective strategies for talking about this, talking about abortion with your conservative uncle, or your anti choice mom or whatever, like, what actually works?

Jessica Valenti 7:22

Yeah, I think the thing I say most is ask questions, right? I think that we it's so easy to go into this defensive mode where you're like, that's not right, that's totally wrong. What are you talking about? That's horrible. And of course, that immediately shuts people down. And of course, I want to preface this by saying, you know, I don't think that we should talk to brick walls, right. Like I do believe that your activist energy is a precious resource and that you should use it carefully. But of course, there are people who we care about and there's people whose minds that we do want to change, or who we think are reachable. And so I think when someone says something to you that just seems totally out of pocket. Like, ridiculous about abortion, the ability to say, Huh? What makes you say that? Like, where did you hear that? Like, tell me more about that and making people feel heard. And oftentimes, you'll the entry point for conversation for all of these facts and stats and arguments, hopefully that you've read in my book or at the newsletter, you'll find an entry point for that. And I also often find there's so much misinformation, there's so much misinformation, that the ability to combat that misinformation and disinformation and tell people the truth is really powerful. And I think the other thing that really works is personal stories, is sharing personal stories, right? Everyone? Renee braci Sherman, who's an amazing writer you know, has said many times, everyone loves someone who's had an abortion, right? Like we all know someone who's had an abortion, and the ability to talk about those personal stories, talk about, like, the real lives behind this issue that works. Like there is a reason that Republican politicians anti abortion groups are so obsessed with talking about abortion, you know, in terms of six weeks versus 12 weeks versus 20 weeks, or they want people to forget the real lives behind these policies. And I think bringing it back to those real lives as much as possible is, is what works. And I

Traci Thomas 9:26

think, I think, I mean, you talk about this in the book, but I think that's what's so, sort of, like me, like nefarious about the criminalization of abortion, is it's like, well, I would love to tell you my story about abortion, but I live in Texas, and, like, I don't want to have someone be able to call and have me arrested, and it's so it makes it so that one of the most powerful tools, it becomes questioned. And I think, like, that is very scary. It's

Jessica Valenti 9:55

so important to talk about, and I'm so glad that you brought it up, because. That is a huge strategy, right? Like that. Chilling effect is it's a huge part of the strategy in anti abortion states, where you're making people too afraid to go to each other for support, to to help each other, to have these conversations. And that's one of the things that makes me so frustrated about anti abortion groups and anti abortion, politicians calling themselves like the party of family values, or saying that they care about family and community, when you are breaking communities up, you are incentivizing people turning each other in, like, family members turning each other in like there could not be anything less family values than that. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 10:39

you talked about misinformation a little bit. And one of the things that I still don't fully understand, and I would love for you to explain, because I know that I'm not alone in this, which is why this talking point that we keep seeing JD Vance and Donald Trump do about, we want to give it to the states to choose. Why is that? Like, particularly bad? I think, like literally yesterday, we were at a five year old's birthday party, and one of the other kids grandmas was telling my husband, who's an OB, GYN, how she thinks states should choose and and my husband was like this. He's like, I just got about the craziest conversation with this old anti abortion lady. Was like, what happened? And he's like, she keeps talking about states right, states rights. And so I want you to explain for me, but also for everyone else, why it's not a state's right issue, or why it's dangerous if it becomes one, sure.

Jessica Valenti 11:32

I mean, from an ethical, moral point of view, right? Like we're talking about people's freedom and bodily integrity, like this, this should shift from state to state. Like your ability to access healthcare should not change depending on your geographic location. That is absurd. You know, ridiculous. The other thing that I think is so telling about this talking point, there's a reason that they are using this idea of back to the States or the will of the people, the votes of the people. They are using language like that because they know that Americans overwhelmingly want abortion to be legal, right. We are taught abortion bans are laws that a small group of extremist legislators are passing against the wishes of the vast majority of voters, and they do not want people to remember that, and so that is why they use language that makes it sound like people have a choice, like you are going to get to decide. They are giving a false illusion of control and choice, which is especially important for Republican women and white women voters who are leaning Republican, they want to believe that this won't impact them, that they will have a choice, right? The truth is that you don't even this idea of we're giving it back to the States states are voting. What they don't like to mention is that in every single state where abortion has been on the ballot, Republicans have done every single thing they possibly can to keep that issue off the ballot. They do not want voters to have a direct say on this issue, because they know that when voters have a direct say, abortion rights wins, and that's why you're seeing, you know, Ohio, they won the lead up to that was absurd. They had, you know, they were using the power of the state to influence this campaign, where they had the Secretary of State writing bias ballot summaries. In Missouri, they were sending out text messages warning people not to sign a pro choice petition because activists were trying to steal your identity, like they're pulling out all of these really bananas sort of dirty tricks to stop people from from having a say. And then, of course, that doesn't even get into gerrymandering, voter suppression, right? The fact that in a lot of these states, people just do not have a say at all, that their legislators are not representing them, right? And so it just again, is giving this false illusion of choice where there is none like abortion really, truly is an issue that voters have moved past. Voters want abortion to be legal. Yeah? Period,

Traci Thomas 14:09

yeah period. It's

Jessica Valenti 14:10

done like, you know, I think there's this. I think anti abortion groups and politicians really, really want to make it seem like this is an issue the country is polarized over. They're not this is not an issue. The country is split on people want abortion to be legal. And I think the more that we talk about that too, the more helpful it is.

Traci Thomas 14:29

Yeah, I mean, why do you feel that the left, the Democrats, who people who are pro, you know, abortion rights. Why are they ceding that point? Why are they taking that for granted? It just to me, it. I know that we always talk about, like, how Democrats always fumble the bag and like, they can, you know, they can fuck up just about anything. But this, to me, is so it's baffling. And I'm sure you feel the same way, because you spend all day thinking about this, but like, Why can't, why can't they get the messaging on this right? Not only do people want it, it's also like a net positive for all Americans, right? Like, it's a good thing, as you say in the book. I think the first or second chapter is, like, abortion is good. Why can't they talk about it? Why can't they even, even if they don't want to go that far and say abortion is good, fine, I get it, whatever. Yeah, be a Puritan. But like, why can't they say abortion is pop like, women's health care is popular and we support the will of the people. Like, I just it. I'm like, shaking because it makes me so what

Jessica Valenti 15:41

is angry, too, what

Traci Thomas 15:42

the fight is this? I wish

Jessica Valenti 15:43

I could answer that question about that specifically about, like the votes, and this is an issue that voters support. I don't know, because to me, that is such a powerful message to remind voters they are doing this against your will. They are passing these laws that no one wants. They know. They know in these states that voters want abortion to be legal, and they're passing these laws anyway. I don't know what you know, messaging firm is telling Democrats, you know, listen, their messaging has gotten better. I will say that right, like they have gotten better on this issue, it used to be that the only thing they said about abortion was safe, legal and rare. They were afraid to use the word abortion, they just said choice, right? And so we have made a lot of progress. We have, but not enough. I really do wish that there was that conversation in particular. I will say one thing that does give me hope, though, when I wrote about this a little bit in the newsletter, is the way that Kamala Harris has started to talk about abortion as it relates to the deaths of candy Miller and Amber Nicole Thurman in Georgia. And, you know, she gave a speech in Georgia where she talked about abortion as a normal part of someone's life, something normal that they chose right like when politicians talk about abortion, pro choice politicians, it is often the most tragic circumstances, the most tragic stories, right? Like they are often talking about wanted pregnancies gone wrong, people who are sexually assaulted, who can't get care. She talked about Amber Nicole Thurman, you know, I don't want to butcher exactly what she said, but she was talking about, you know, this is a woman. She had her life planned out. She had her son, she was going to nursing school, she had just gotten this apartment, she had a plan for her life, and it was her plan. And so when she got pregnant, she decided to have an abortion, like she had made it a part of like this was not part of her plan, and that's fine. It's fine to have an abortion, not because, you know, some horrible thing happened, but because it wasn't what you wanted for your life. And to me, that's one of the most powerful things that we can be talking about. Because this isn't for, you know, 95% of people of abortions. This isn't a wanted pregnancy gone wrong. This isn't, you know, something that happened because of a sexual attack. It's because you didn't want to be pregnant. And that is just as moral and good and important as any other abortion. And they want to take it's like they're not just taking our health care away, they're taking our right to determine the course of our own lives away. And what could be more important than that? Yeah,

Traci Thomas 18:17

and you talk about, there's no such thing as compromise around abortion, and you talk about sort of like these, a thing that the right uses is like, oh, there's an exception for this. But you talk about how there's really no exceptions. Can you explain that a little bit to folks? Because I don't. I think there are people who are pro choice, but feel that a person who gets an abortion for any reason that isn't an extreme or dire circumstance is somehow morally compromised. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about why you don't think there's such thing as compromise around abortion, and what is actually happening with these quote, unquote exceptions, and why they aren't real sure.

Jessica Valenti 19:01

I mean, again, it gets back to the idea of, you're talking about someone's freedom, bodily integrity, bodily autonomy, ability to choose their own life. There cannot be compromise. You know, there just can't be compromised on that. And the minute you start to legislate pregnancy and bodies and and health, you are getting into extraordinarily dangerous territory, as we have seen, and no amount of exceptions can can change that. The truth, and I know that you know this, your husband's an OB GYN pregnancy is far too complicated to legislate. There are 1,000,001 things that can go wrong. And in this country, especially where pregnancy is dangerous, pregnancy can be deadly, you cannot morally, ethically, ask someone to take on that risk against their will, right? Like, I don't think we talk enough about this. Is not like. Oh, abortion is legal. You are forcing people to carry a pregnancy, to risk their health and lives against their will. That, to me, is just extraordinary, and with exceptions, in particular, this idea, you know, Republicans have really focused on this a lot in the last few months, because they think it's a way to, sort of, like soften their image with voters. But exceptions don't work. Exceptions are deliberately crafted not to be used, right? Like when this is not something where politicians got in a room and they're like, Okay, how can we make sure that people who are raped or people who are victims of incest can have access to care? They got in a room and said, How can we make it as difficult as possible for these people to get care right? Like there's a reason that in so many states, rape exceptions, for example, require a police report. It's because they know that victims don't report to nobody. So it's like they took the things that that they knew about victims and weaponized that, and it just makes it so, so incredibly cruel. And one of the things I write about in the book, I think that one of one of the cruelest exceptions are the so called exceptions for Fatal fetal abnormalities, right? Yeah, no. Americans don't want to force people to carry doomed pregnancies to term. That is obscene. It is obscene, but they're writing these laws to do just that right, like when they do have exceptions and they often don't right, like the so called compromise 15 week abortion ban that Republicans are pushing on a national level that would force women to carry June pregnancies to term. Right in the states that do have an exception, they write it in such a way that, again, it's impossible to use. So they'll say things like, you can only get it if it is uniformly diagnosable. There's hardly anything that's uniformly diagnosable, right? Or they will deliberately not define or leave vague what constitutes a fatal abnormality is something fatal if a newborn would live for a few days, a few hours, or do they need to die immediately upon birth? Right? Right? They and again, that is all deliberate. They are doing that so that people cannot access care, right? And we've seen the consequences of that. We've seen in Texas, you know, someone like Samantha Castellano vomiting on the sand while talking about being forced to give birth to a baby that was never going to live, being forced to watch her daughter die. Obscene is just the word that, like, just rolls through my mind multiple times a day. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 22:39

and another point that you make in the book, and this is, I think one of the like through lines of this podcast in the last few years has been a lot about abolition. And one of the things you talk about in this book is pregnancy as punishment. That sort of the thing that is consistent is that there's this desire to punish women. I think in some cases it's very clear what for, for having unprotected sex, for not for their plan failing. But what do you think that it's for? Like, why are we punishing women who have babies, like you mentioned, a child who it never their head never forms. Like, why should that woman like, What's the punishment? Isn't the punishment already for her, that she has to know that her child is never going to be, like, able to be alive. Like, I don't understand, I guess that part of it, I understand that, like, don't have sex girls, but I don't understand like, dear married woman who has three children, like, you have to suffer.

Jessica Valenti 23:39

I mean, I think a lot of those women, I think the anti abortion movement sees them as collateral damage, that they are willing to let those people suffer in order to win politically, in order to win a right. And that's something I write about when it comes to like the forced C sections, for example, right where I know which is so

Traci Thomas 24:01

fucking insane fucking surgery. Are you crazy? Like, yeah,

Jessica Valenti 24:08

they're talking about, like, at 1415, weeks, where it's like, there's not going to be any, there's no fetal survival, right, that early. Like it's solely, solely to be able to push this talking point that abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life, they want to be able to say, No, abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life. You can just give them a C section. You can just force them to go into vaginal labor, and so they're willing to torture women.

Traci Thomas 24:36

Yeah, but isn't that aborting a pregnancy still, like, I know it's a different it's not a DNC or it's not a pill, but like, you're still terminating a pregnancy when you deliver a baby at 14 weeks because they're no longer pregnant, and the baby's not, like, I don't so it's just, it's just performance art,

Jessica Valenti 24:57

it's just performance art, and that's why, you know, they've. Come up with these terms. That's the reason I have, like, a glossary at the end of the book. They've come up with these terms, like maternal fetal separation. They are just so desperate, so desperate to make it appear as if abortion is not healthcare. Abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life, even though, yeah, it's you know that that pregnancy is going to end. And what is so extraordinarily cruel about this is that they will talk about, well, we want to do that to preserve dignity for the fetus. What about this person's dignity? What like forcing someone to a major abdominal surgery rather than a 10 minute procedure, which is medically standard. There is no such thing as our dignity in these circumstances, right? And that's where they give away the game, like really and truly, where you are no longer seen as a person, not like, ethically, constitutionally, any of it,

Traci Thomas 26:00

right? And, and you talk about this in the book as well, kind of on this punishment or like, carceral side of this is like, there are situations where not only are people's families and friends turning them in, but also, like, nurses and doctors. And we've talked about this a lot on this podcast, actually, because it's really common that, you know, in schools, teachers become the police. In hospitals, doctors and nurses become the police. But the there's a flip side of that, which is that doctors and nurses are not able to get the training, to have the to be able to provide the care that they need. Like for an OB GYN, you have to know how to perform an abortion. That is standard of trading like, and so in these states now, doctors, they're having to send residents to other states to be able like, it's just,

Jessica Valenti 26:51

yeah, they're sending them to other states. They're or they're making them learn on models like, Who do you want if you have a miscarriage and you need a miscarriage if you need an abortion, who do you want doing that? Do you want someone who learned on a model, right? Do you want someone who had to travel to another state and sleep on a hotel room floor because they're paying for it themselves, right? And learned with someone who's not their regular teacher? Right? Or do you want someone who knows how to do this like the back of their hand, because they've been adequately professionally trained? Right? That it's like, it's a whole other ripple effect that we don't talk about enough, that it's not just, you know, the suffering on the ground, the lack of healthcare. We're talking about devastating, ruining a new generation of reproductive healthcare providers, losing historical knowledge. It's so incredibly dangerous. And there's a reason why we're seeing OBGYN leave. Anti abortion states, they're just leaving. You know, Idaho lost 25% of its OB gyns, I think half of its maternal fetal, fetal medicine specialists. And in turn, of course, maternity wards are closing, which in turn, of course, leads to increased maternal health deserts, which is killing people. And what is so distressing? I mean, there's a lot distressing about it, but when someone dies because of a maternal health desert, right? That's not going to be counted as a death because of an abortion ban, but it is, but it is if an abortion ban has driven all of the OBGYN out of a state, and therefore now people have to travel two hours to go give birth, and they die as a result of that. That is on anti abortion politicians hands,

Traci Thomas 28:27

right, right, and again. Another added thing is that doctors who are performing standard health care abortions are also being attacked and arrested and like so it's like, why would if you're just a regular, everyday doctor? Let me put it this way, I would tell Mr. Stacks that we are leaving and you can practice somewhere else. That's what I would say, as the wife of a physician, like, Oh, you're gonna go to jail over this. Like, we've got, we've got our own family. Like, no, no. Why would you stay? Like to be a hero, I guess, which, thank you for people who are staying and doing it, but like, I'm selfish and I don't want my husband in jail for doing his everyday job.

Jessica Valenti 29:09

It's really there is. There's been a few studies about there is a really awful mental health crisis among OB gyns because of these laws, right? Like the moral distress that they are under, where they do have to choose, do I leave or do I do I stay to try to help as many patients as I can? Am I abandoning my patients? You know, but a lot of reproductive health care providers are of reproductive age themselves. They have their own families. They have young children right to ask them to put their families in danger, to maybe have to leave their child because they go to jail. It is an impossible situation that they are putting these, these doctors and nurses and healthcare providers in.

Traci Thomas 29:57

Yeah, I can even see how, like in the moment. Even if you're not thinking about like, repercussions, knowing that there's an easy solution, and like, feeling like your hands are tied is probably like, that's probably really hard mentally too, being like, I could literally do this 10 minute thing, but instead, I have to sit here and watch you bleed until you've bled enough to be in a situation where I can save your life. But then, like, also that means I have to call in two other doctors and three other nurses and the anesthesiologist, and get blood and like all that, like I can imagine, like, careful,

Jessica Valenti 30:27

careful records and make sure I'm legally covered. Do I need to go to the hospital lawyer to to Okay? This it is and that, you know, in a lot of these states, they can't even talk about it, right? Like it's not just that they can't perform the procedure. They can't tell someone where to get an abortion somewhere else. Oh, I

Traci Thomas 30:48

see, yeah. And that is, you know, there

Jessica Valenti 30:51

have been cases where, you know women, I've spoken to women who left Texas to go to New Mexico for care, and the Texas doctors felt like they couldn't legally send their medical records to New Mexico, right? And so it puts people in danger in all sorts of of ways.

Traci Thomas 31:09

Isn't it crazy that we can't just have access to our own medical records like it's my fucking record. Why do I need you to send it, hand it to me and I will like, it's my like, that's even a whole crazy part of the puzzle. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, we are back. I want to talk a little this is sort of a question that I've had, that you talk about in the book, but I would love it explained more for me and everyone else is, like, a lot of I've heard a lot of people talking about how, like, the banning of abortion is, like the first step, but then it's going to be birth control, and then it's going to be IVF, and I can sort of make sense of how birth control and abortion are connected. The IVF part doesn't make sense to me as much.

Jessica Valenti 31:56

Can you help? Yeah, for sure. So I mean, really, the only way it starts to make sense to people, I think, is when you understand that this was never really about abortion, and it's not really about the connection to abortion as much as it is about control over over women's bodies in particular. And this like desperation to reinforce traditional gender roles, and of course, that the people who are dictating anti abortion policy. You're talking about a very small group of people, small, powerful group of people that are very religious, right life begins at conception, people, and for

Traci Thomas 32:33

them, is it very religious, or is it specifically Christian?

Jessica Valenti 32:37

Oh, it's, yeah, it's evangelical Christian, excuse me, yeah,

Traci Thomas 32:39

but it's not like, it's not like really religious Jewish people or really religious people. It's really, just really religious Christians. Yeah, it

Jessica Valenti 32:46

is. It is really religious Christians, very powerful, very well moneyed Christians who believe that we need to have a nation of Christians, right? Like, it is. Like, it there. There are all of these connections to, you know, white nationalism, like the birth rate, like white birth rate, there's, like, a replacement theory, or whatever placement theory. It's all connected. But with IVF, what they really, I mean, they won't say this, but they object to the whole thing. They object to like. They think it's playing God. They they don't like any of it the way that they connect it to abortion. And what they'll say is that they don't want embryos to be destroyed. Now, in in IVF, you are creating lots and lots of embryos because you don't know what's going to take you don't know what is going to have a chromosomal a chromosomal abnormality. And so there will be a lot of embryos discarded in the IVF process. They really don't want that to happen and but they also know that IVF is incredibly popular, and so what they've sort of done now is say, oh no no, we're pro IVF. We're pro family. We just want to use health and safety standards. That's sort of the new language they're using. We just want to have health and safety standards. What that actually means is they want to track the number of embryos. They want to stop people from discarding embryos. They want to take ownership of those embryos, like it's really, really chilling stuff. And so for them, IVF is, is absolutely part of it. And as you said, with birth control, this is not like some future attack. This is already happening. Like they have spent the last decade, uh, legally redefining certain kinds of birth control as abortion, right? Like they say that emergency contraception is abortion. IUDs are abortions. And so when, and that's really beneficial to Republican politicians, because they can say, No, I'm not banning birth control, I'm just banning abortion. Hint, hint, like, like, you know, it's like the Wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing, right? Where? Because they're defining IUDs and emergency contraception as abortion, they can sort of cross their fingers behind their back and say, I'm just banning abortion. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 35:00

Okay, follow up question to this on the like, white national side of this, in your book, in almost everything I've read about abortion, what I've read is that this, all dis these bans, disproportionately affect black and brown women. So why do white nationalists want to ban abortion if these are the babies that are being born, right? Like that part doesn't make sense to me, because white women are wealthy. White women are easiest to get abortions, even when they're banned. Poorer white women still kind of come in a little bit ahead of black and brown women and poor women of color. So I'm just trying to figure out, like you're just gonna end up with more babies to replace you, or whatever your whole like bullshit is, yeah. So

Jessica Valenti 35:51

it's two things. One is the criminalization piece, right? Okay, we love, we love to criminalize. Of course, guess who gets? Guess who gets arrested when it comes to abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth, and of course, like, that's what we're seeing, like they are too smart to arrest someone for breaking an abortion ban. They are arresting people for, you know, Brittany Watson, Ohio, arrested for abuse of a corpse, for flushing her miscarriage. Disgusting. Yeah, you know, arresting a woman in South Carolina for her pregnancy ending, and she didn't like behave correctly, and so now she's arrested for murder. And you you are talking about overwhelmingly low income women, black women in particular, like women of color, but black women in particular, that they are going after. And so it is very much about arresting people like, that's right, the punishment. That's the punishment part. And then the other thing that they have going on is this pipeline to Christian evangelical adoption agencies, right? Yeah, it's about taking those babies. And I sound like such a conspiracy theorist when I say that, but I I'm with you. I'm following it really, really is true. So you have, like, and the New York Times actually did, like, a really terrific piece on maternity homes, right? Like, their next big thing is they're taking all this money for crisis pregnancy centers, for what they're saying is like women and families, and they're putting it into like these old school maternity homes, where you are targeting vulnerable people who have no other place to go, who don't have homes, who are maybe young who maybe have substance abuse problems. You're saying, no worries, we have a place to stay for you. But by the way, you're going to need to hand in your phone, because we lock up the phones at night just to be safe. And also, we're going to put a tracking app on your phone. And also you can't have visitors. And also you need to go to church. And if you want baby clothes or diapers, you're going to need to earn that by going to Bible study. I mean, it's just so twisted. And all of those maternity homes have existing relationships with evangelical adoption agencies, and so they can pressure those women to giving up those those babies, sometimes using criminal criminalization as a way to intervene, to get those babies, put them in good Christian homes. And then all of a sudden, you have, you know, it's again, sometimes I feel like I sound crazy when I'm saying this, but it actually really that is what's happening. Like, it literally is what's happening.

Traci Thomas 38:14

Okay, this leads me to such an important question, which is, how the fuck are you do you stay sane doing this shit? Like, how do you do this every day? Read these stories and write about this. And like, don't you want to just, like, drink a margarita at a beach? And like, sleep.

Jessica Valenti 38:31

I do. Sleep is, like, my number one dream. You know, people ask me this question a lot, and it's like, I'm not doing well. Like, I don't think anyone who does this work is doing terrific, right? Like, it's really hard. It really sucks, but I sort of feel like the alternative would be worse. I cannot imagine, like, knowing what I know and having, like, the skills that I do and not doing something. I feel like this is absolutely like, what is required in this moment. And so you you do it. The thing that does make it a lot easier, though, is the community. Like there is this incredible community of people who care about this issue, who are working on this issue every day, people who want to help, people who want to do something. And so it does make you feel not alone in that, you know, bad mental health space. I do try to remember, though, and I think it's important for anyone who cares about this issue to remember that this is a marathon and not a sprint, right? Like this is not going to be something that is changed in November no matter what happens. It's not something that's going to be changed in the next couple of years. It's going to take years. It's going to take a long time to set this right. And you know, whatever we can do to take care of ourselves in the meantime, so that we have the, you know, that longevity and the the ability to keep going is incredibly important.

Traci Thomas 39:54

And are there any things that you do like, just to kind of help yourself? Like, because. You know, it is a marathon and not a sprint. Like, any tips or tools that you use, like hot chocolate or long runs or getting your nails done or, like, Are there any of those kind of things that help you? Yeah, I

Jessica Valenti 40:12

mean, the thing I'm trying to my sort of commitment to myself lately, is to just do one normal person thing a day, right? Like, and just need to do one normal thing a day, like, cook dinner. I love to cook. I haven't been cooking a lot lately because of everything, you know, let me cook dinner. Let me go out and get breakfast with my daughter. Like, just, if I can have one thing that feels like real and tangible and like good and part of my life every day that I can then I can do it okay,

Traci Thomas 40:43

like that. I wrote a note when I was reading the book, and now I can't remember what page I was, what page sparked it is, but I wrote, are you hopeful? But then by the end of the book, I was like, I don't know why I wrote that question down, because I don't know that I felt like the book was particularly hopeful by the end. And so I guess my question is, there is this version of november 5, 2024 where Kamala Harris is elected, the Democrats win all the houses in the House and the Senate, and it's a super majority on january 21 they sign a law that says abortion legal until viability at 24 weeks. Let's say I don't even know what viability is anymore. It's probably closer. It's not a real Yeah, it's not like it's not a real thing. But it's probably, anyways, whatever approximately,

Jessica Valenti 41:41

is it fixed? No, not, if there's not a pass restriction, yeah. To me, Roe was never enough. People were getting denied care under Roe, right? And we, and we've seen this in the horror stories that have come out after Roe was overturned, like the people who have been impacted. I don't want to say the most, but the horror stories that we are hearing are generally from people who are later on in their pregnancies, who needed care. Later in their pregnancies, that is when things tend to go wrong.

Traci Thomas 42:10

How late in the pregnancies is this that you're talking about? Approximately

Jessica Valenti 42:15

that the horror stories we've heard, yeah, yeah, anywhere from 20 plus weeks, right? I could, I mean, but it can be anytime. But it gets back to something that I was saying earlier, where, like, this is about freedom, bodily integrity, bodily autonomy. You don't stop being a person when you're 24 weeks pregnant, right? Like, you don't stop being like an ethical, moral, constitutional, legal person when you are 24 weeks pregnant. And if we have a law that says that, that is very concerning to me, especially because viability is not a real medical standard, right? And because if you want to talk about like, what voters want, 81% of Americans don't want government interference or regulation of abortion at all, like zero. Yeah, right. And so to me, the only, the only way this is done is if there is zero government intrusion into pregnancy and abortion, that there are no no one is looking no one's investigating your stillbirth, no one's investigating your miscarriage. No one's saying, Are you sick enough at 24 or 25 weeks, or 30 weeks, or 35 weeks to get the care that you need, that this is never something that you have to worry about a politician being involved in, that this that we trust people who are pregnant to make the best decisions for themselves, that we trust the doctors that they're working with to advise them and to help them like that is when this is done to me. Okay, okay.

Traci Thomas 43:45

And another talking point that we, that I've heard, is like, Kamala Harris would allow abortion at at nine months or whatever. Is that a thing? No.

Jessica Valenti 43:57

I mean, no, it's not right. Like, what

Traci Thomas 43:59

is the latest that people get an abortion, because at a certain point the child is it does become like a like, you can have a baby at 30 weeks, like, spontaneously. So, like, what, what is your delivery

Jessica Valenti 44:12

at that point? Right? Like your delivery. I mean, I always like to preface this by saying like, by trying to make people understand, like, what it means to get a third trimester abortion. To get a third trimester abortion, there are, I think there's under five clinics in the whole country that do that. Yeah, you are talking about a multi day, painful, invasive, very difficult procedure. You are talking about something that can cost 10,000 $20,000 right? Yeah, insurance is largely not covering this. This is not something that someone opts into because they just decided they didn't want to be pregnant, like when you weren't getting an abortion at that stage, when you were going through this sort of thing, traveling to another state, getting a multi day procedure, spending, you know, all of this money. Right? It is because something has gone terribly, terribly wrong. And then, of course, for people where there's no tragic circumstance, they are there because of the hurdles that Republicans put in place. They are there because they wanted to get care earlier, but there was a waiting period, or they couldn't afford it because of the Hyde Amendment, because, you know, like, right? So there's all of these hurdles and and deliberate hurdles that Republicans have put in place that create the need for abortions later in pregnancy. And then the other thing that I hate to talk about, because it's horrible, but it's true, is that the proportion, like the the demographic that is most likely to have abortions after 24 weeks are children under 14. And so you're talking about baby like, to me, that's a baby, right? Because my kids 14, yeah, you're talking about like, kids who are disproportionately victims of sexual violence, who are more likely to not know anything about their bodies, who do not don't have the ability, they don't have a credit card, they don't have their own health insurance, they don't have the ability to go get care, right? So that, and that is part of the reason I say there cannot be any government interference, because if there's no government interference, and people can just make these decisions, then you don't have some 13 year old girl, you know, who doesn't know anything about her body, who all of a sudden figure figures out she's pregnant at 25 weeks, and then needs to fucking travel like, you know, halfway across the country. It's, it's just absurd. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 46:35

I want people to read the book, and I want, I want them to pay a special attention to the chapter about children being the canaries in the coal mine. I thought that that chapter was just like you talked about the beginning, like hoping that you reach someone, and it like changes the way they are thinking about that was it for me, just like thinking about, what are we doing to these kids, these poor kids who, like, just fucking are being pawns and this whole thing. So I don't want to give too much way about it, but get the book. If you only read one chapter, which read the whole book, it's very short, but if you only read one, read that one and then come talk to me about it, because I want to talk to people about it. Is there anything I know you say this at the very beginning, you could write like, 10 books on this. But is there any one thing that's not in the book that you wish could have been Ooh,

Jessica Valenti 47:19

i Yeah. I Yeah. I think that I would have loved to have more on crisis pregnancy centers and maternity homes and that and that and that connection to the evangelical movement. There is so much there. There's like, there's so much there, there there's so many connections. There's so much like, back door secret politicking that's happening. I would love to write like a whole separate book on that.

Traci Thomas 47:45

I would read it. I would read it excellent. I want to talk about your process quickly. You write this abortion every day, sub stack, so you are writing all the time, but you also wrote this book. Do you? Does it differ how you approach writing the book versus how you write the sub stack? Like where you are, what kind of music, if you have any snacks and beverages rituals, like, how do you differentiate these kind of two different projects?

Jessica Valenti 48:09

It is very much the same in terms of, like, where I am, like what I'm doing. I will say I'm a very, like unhealthy writer. Like, I am not like a wake up in the morning and write my 500 words kind of bitch like, that's not me. I might have my diet coke in one hand and literally a bag of mini marshmallows in the other.

Traci Thomas 48:31

Yes, I love this. For us, it's the only it's the only way of what kind

of diet coke is? It a candy bottle and mini glass bottle. The

Jessica Valenti 48:40

glass bottle is glass bottle.

Traci Thomas 48:42

Okay, that's fancy as fuck. Jessica, my

Jessica Valenti 48:46

Bodega has them. Wait. The Bodega from my house has them. And to me, you can't go back once you have the glass bottle. So like that, to me, is elite. That's perfect. Um, anything to like make me feel comfortable, and like, relatively okay in that okay in that moment. But, you know, I live in a small Brooklyn apartment. My husband works from home. I have a 14 year old kid, and so I am really, like, on the couch, like, with a laptop stand, just doing what I have to do. It's, it's not pretty, but it works,

Traci Thomas 49:22

okay. And that's where you write everything, book and sub stack, book

Jessica Valenti 49:26

and sub sack. There was for the book. I did take a little bit of time to go upstate to upstate New York, and I stayed in, like, my parents house so that I could, like, get a little bit of distance and space. I took a few weeks at the end to be able to do that, because I did meet a little bit a little bit more. But the work of the newsletter is so similar to the work of the book. And, you know, I wouldn't have been able to do the book without the newsletter, and it informed it incredibly so. But for the book, I was trying to figure out how to. Capture this particular moment in time, right? Like, the thing about the newsletter is it's ephemeral, like you have it in your inbox and then it's out. And so I just wanted to to write something that was really like, Okay, this is the the compilation. This is exactly what's happening. This is the most important stuff for you to know. And obviously, because things are changing so quickly when it comes to abortion rights and the news. I tried to be as clear as I could that like this case that I write about, like may be different by the time you pick up this book, but I tried to pick stories and cases that told that bigger, broader strategy story and that that would be evergreen and stand the test of time a little bit better.

Traci Thomas 50:41

Is that hard for you? Though, even knowing, just because you do a newsletter, which, like, you can update, hey, last week I said this. Now it's this, but, like, with a book, it's like, maybe you have another edition, but like, do you have? Did you have, like, stress about it?

Jessica Valenti 50:55

It was brutal when I had to, when I recorded the audio book, and, you know, it's too late now, like, it's all, it's all in and seeing, like, Oh, fuck. Like, that changed. Or like, I wish I would have written this that way. There was, there was something that happened that would be perfect in that chapter, that is hard, that is absolutely, really, really, really challenging. But I'm just trying to, like, file it away and and keep it for next time. But, like, there is there just isn't. The newsletter is so great in in so many ways, but there isn't anything like a book like it is so important to have this, you know, like, oftentimes, physical piece of history. It is it just, I can see that it makes a difference in terms of the way that people talk about this issue and the way that they share with the people in their lives. And that, to me, is everything,

Traci Thomas 51:52

and also, like as a person who reads newsletters, and also unfortunately, writes one, I skim a newsletter, I read a newsletter really different than I read a book. Like if I read a book, I'm reading a book. If I read a newsletter, I'm reading, like some paragraphs, I'm jumping and trying to find it. Maybe I'm even doing a control fine on your particular thing. So I do feel like there's like a seriousness to a book that I'm gonna consider the work in a different way. Are there any word, or is there a word that you can never spell correctly on the first try.

Jessica Valenti 52:22

Oh, oh, my God. There's probably, there's probably a few, it's not constitutional. There was one recently that I absolutely couldn't get shit. Now I'm forgetting. There's a lot I have a lot of, like, a lot of, there's like, a lot of legal work. Okay, that'll come up that. I'm like, Oh, wait, it'll, it'll always have to do a little auto correct for me. Thank God for for auto correct. I'm getting better.

Traci Thomas 52:50

So bad that my auto correct is just like, this is just wrong. And I don't have a, I don't have a helpful word for you. I just have a red line. Like, that's it. Try again. Sorry.

Jessica Valenti 53:01

Like, what is that? What are you saying?

Traci Thomas 53:05

I feel like I'm like, in a fight with my spell check, because I just will put, like, multiple letters, and then they'll give me a red line, and I'll be like, Okay, we'll fix it. And then they're like, sorry. They're like, We quit. That's hilarious. Let's talk a little bit about some books that are in conversation with your book. I know that you've given us this, like, Great bibliography and like resources, but if you could just shout out a few books that you think are particularly helpful. I know in the book, you talk about the turn away study, which is, like, the next thing I want to read that's, like, the next book about abortion on my reading list. I it's been on my list for a long time, but then when you said it in your book, I was like, okay, just go get it. But what else would you maybe suggest to folks?

Jessica Valenti 53:49

So there's a new book, actually, that came out the same exact day that my book did, called liberating abortion by Renee braci Sherman. That is excellent, amazing. It focuses, sort of like, on the history of abortion rights and reproductive justice and the black women who built that movement. And like, where it is now. It's really like, I can't recommend it enough. It's great. There's also a book called A Handbook for post row America. I think it might be called the new handbook for post row America right now by a woman named Robin Marty who works at a reproductive health care clinic in Alabama. That is like a super useful tool to have that I think is great. Killing the black body by Dorothy Roberts is amazing. I think Dorothy Roberts just wanted MacArthur. She did. She did. Yeah, deservedly so

Traci Thomas 54:41

I was shocked she didn't have one. I was like, Wait, right? Like, really? I was like, I know, maybe it's a different Dorothy Roberts. And then I clicked, and I was like, Nope, that's the same one. Yeah,

Jessica Valenti 54:52

no, there's so many great ones. You know, Mary Zeigler is someone I read like she's a law professor who's really. Great. Like, I feel like, what I like about abortion rights, what I like reading about abortion rights is that you can go like, full activist. You can like, read like the activists on the ground. You can read sort of like the denser, you know, legal theory stuff. And it's all important, the turnaway study, you know, read about people's lived realities, like what this actually means it's all important. It all makes a difference.

Traci Thomas 55:26

Last question for you, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Jessica Valenti 55:33

Oh, my God, that's really interesting. Maybe my grandma? Maybe my grandma. My grandma is no longer here. She, you know, raised five kids without money, didn't have choices, didn't have a lot of options, didn't have a lot of choices. Had a really challenging life, but it was an amazing, strong person, and I would be really and she died before I was sort of old enough to have these conversations with her. And I would be really curious to know where she stands and what she thinks, and like, what she would think about what's happening now.

Traci Thomas 56:18

Yeah, it's a great answer. All right, everybody at home, you can get abortion wherever you get your books. It is out in the world. I listened to the audiobook. You did a really fantastic job. Oh, thanks. I really liked it. And so I can give it a stamp of approval for folks be sure to get your book read it. It is that you have time to arm yourselves to have these conversations before the election. But also, as Jessica mentioned, it's gonna be happening on November, 6 and seventh and eighth, and hopefully not too much longer after but you know what? I have a sense we're gonna be doing this. Your newsletter is gonna have a future, I think so. Get your copy and Jessica, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for coming on the show. Gosh, thank you for having me and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to my amazing guests, Jessica Valenti, I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Anahita Padmanabahn and Stacey Stein for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, October 30 with Franklin Leonard. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com.this episode of the stats was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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