Ep. 355 Scrambling Queer History with Michael Waters

Written By Megan Caballero

This week, we're joined by journalist and debut author Michael Waters to discuss his book, The Other Olympians: Fascism, Queerness, and the Making of Modern Sports. We explore the history of gender surveillance and sex testing for athletes, as well as how sports have become the frontier for transgender political battles. Michael also shares his approach to navigating the evolving landscape of language in gender identity.

The Stacks Book Club pick for January is The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley. We will discuss the book on January 29th with J Wortham returning as our guest.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Michael Waters 0:00

I really would love for Koubek, the main athlete in this book, to read it, because I do think, like, I am quite a cynical person, and I do think there's, like, there's a bit of, like, that sort of like, light hearted hater mentality that I think he and I share what I'm cleaning you know, like, before he, before he played sports, he was really mean about athletes. He was like, What's the point? What's the point of this, you know, and I thought, and he's really funny about it too in his book. So I could see us having some fun banter. I would like to think we'd be friends, but it's kind of crazy to think about.

Traci Thomas 0:40

Welcome to the stats podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am very excited to welcome to the podcast. Michael waters. Michael is a journalist and author whose work examines the relationship between sports, identity and history. His latest book, The other Olympians, fascism, queerness and the Making of Modern sports, uncovers the untold stories of early trans and intersex athletes, highlighting how they navigated the complexities of gender and competitive sports during the 20th century, including the very controversial 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin. Don't forget, our January book club pick is the ministry of time by Kelly Ann Bradley. We will be discussing that book on Wednesday, January 29 with Jay Wertham. Be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, now is the time to head to patreon.com/the stacks. When you join the stacks pack, you will get a bunch of perks every single month, like bonus episodes, access to our Discord community. You get to be part of our mega reading challenge. And if you join before January 31 you get access to my very, very cool, if I do say so myself, reading tracker. And you'll get a shout out on this podcast. I've been doing shout outs on this podcast for new members of the stacks pack since we started Patreon in 2018 but you know what? All good things come to an end. That perk is going to be no longer starting January 31 so if you want to hear me read your name in my dulcet tones, now is the time to join. Head to patreon.com/the stacks, and now I get to do a shout out to our newest members of the stacks. Pack. Thank you to Megan Gebhardt, Anastasia, gorova, Hilary hubacker, Kathy, F, ABS, H, deep, D, Aloha, Lisa s, tominata Cook, Lindsay tamarello, Ashley Miller, Samantha Juan Patty reads a lot. Adrian Wiley, Amy Kett and Kai Escobar San huesa, thank you all so much, and thank you to every single member of the stacks pack. I could not make this show without you. Now it's time for my conversation with Michael waters, the author of the other Olympians.

All right. Michael waters, author of the other Olympians, welcome to the stacks. I'm so excited you're here

Michael Waters 3:02

today. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here, I

Traci Thomas 3:05

have to tell you. So normally I try to, like, stick with books in the year that they come out on the show for these kind of interviews. But I loved your book so much, and I sort of fucked up and didn't read it until after it came out. And so I was like, I can't do it. Blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, You know what? I love the book too much to just let it disappear into the 2024 ethos. So I'm thrilled to have you here in 2025 I'm assuming there will be a paperback at some point this year, maybe, and so it'll still be relevant this year and beyond. But for people who don't know about your book, can you tell us in about 30 seconds what you did here,

Michael Waters 3:41

yeah, well, I appreciate you making an exception for this. So my book is a non fiction queer history book, and it's essentially the story of this Czech sprinter named Zdeněk Koubek, who was assigned female at birth. Played in women's sports for most of his career, and then after stepping away from sports in 1935 he announced that he was transitioning gender and would begin living as a man. Okay?

Traci Thomas 4:07

I am sure that I am not unlike many people who read this book who are like, Wait, there were trans athletes in the 1930s Did you like how did you come to this story? How did you know that there was a story here to write about?

Michael Waters 4:24

Yeah, so my background is in queer history, and I spend a lot of my time like just reading sort of random news articles from the early 1900s about queer folks generally. So I think, like, to me, I wasn't quite as shocked as like, probably the average person is, I subscribe to this database called newspapers.com which, literally, they just digitize like, like every like, many of the major newspapers. It's an incredible resource. And so I, like, have spent a lot of time, just like, literally typing in different keywords and phrases related to. Queer people in different eras. Because, you know, every era would have their own kind of buzzwords to describe, like gay people, for instance. And if you kind of know the ways that these things were described, you can really find a lot. And so in the 1930s we didn't have this concept of being trans. And so the way that, like people who were moving between these gender categories were described, it would be as undergoing a kind of quote, unquote, sexual metamorphosis, and sort of other similar phrases. And so I was like, looking up stuff related to that in the 1930s when I stumbled on this newspaper story that mentioned COVID. Who is this athlete who transitioned gender? Who's really at the center of my book? And, you know, I think what struck me is I have, I had read a lot of, you know, like, local news stories about people cross dressing, people transitioning in some way. Maybe after like, it would be discovered on their deathbed or something, or they'd even apply to have, like, their name changed on formal documents. You know, like, there are plenty of local news stories throughout the early 1900s about transition and about the sort of expansiveness of what we would call gender today. What struck me about COVID story right away is just that he was, like, quite famous. You know, yes,

Traci Thomas 6:10

yes. That struck me too. When I was reading the book, I was like, Wait a second,

Michael Waters 6:15

yeah. Well, and it's because usually, like, this is mostly relegated to local news, and the fact that COVID was an athlete who was prominent in Czechoslovakia at the time, but, like, maybe not world famous until he transitioned. And then his his sort of gender transition, just became like global news for a year from 1935 to 1936 and that was really striking, because, like, he sort of became a way in which, just like the world public, and you know, I'm focusing especially on the American public, in this case, we're talking about and receiving gender and sort of like, we're breaking down. Like, well, what does it mean to move between these categories? And perhaps, like, are these ideas of male and female? Like, you know, are they perhaps, more permeable than the public would have thought? And so he really became a vehicle for the public in the 1930s to just like, think about gender, which I found really fascinating.

Traci Thomas 7:08

Do you feel like as far as his fame goes relative to the media, I guess then versus now? Was it similar to a like, Caitlyn Jenner situation? Was it that kind of like, holy cow, this is this huge thing that's happening, or was it, was it different? Was Was it received in different ways? Yeah,

Michael Waters 7:29

I don't think it was the quite the same full court press as, okay, like a Caitlyn Jenner situation. I think, I mean, honestly, like, I think there was an element of, like, sensationalism to the way that he was covered. I think it was more of like, here is this odd story out of Czechoslovakia, more so than like, here is this athlete that everyone knows. And yeah. And so that was kind of the original tenor of the coverage, I mean. And then there's this moment in 1936 actually, during the Berlin Olympics. So COVID doesn't play in the Berlin Olympics, but he is invited to perform on Broadway in New York City. And so he comes to New York, and there's like, there's like, tons of tabloid reporters all over him. People are trying to take his picture and interview him. The New York Daily News is covering him left and right. And so he definitely was more than just sort of a one off news item for even at the American press. I think just his story was so perplexing. But I wouldn't say that like, kind of everyone in America had heard of him as of that year. I think if you read the New York Daily News or the New York Post, for sure, and yeah, but there was this element of, sort of like, what a wild thing that is happening more so then, like, here is this a list athlete? Yeah,

Traci Thomas 8:44

I'm curious a little bit about since you have your background in queer history, why did you want to write this book? Why did you want to spend time with COVID and the other and Mark Weston and other athletes and sort of this story, because it's not just a story about the athletes, it also is a story about the Nazis and my personal enemy, Avery Brundage, who I've hated for my whole adult life. I don't I just I discovered what a monster he was years ago through Dave Zirin the sports he's like, very anti IOC and I'm just like, sort of curious what it was about, about these athletes, and then also, sort of the broader story where you said, You know what, Michael, sit down. We're gonna write this as a book. Yes,

Michael Waters 9:26

Avery brendage, for sure, recurring bad guy, which actually was sort of helpful for the book too, which is, I think, like, I think the reason that I wanted to do this in the first place is I really am interested in queer and sort of like scrambling people's timelines of queer history, and perhaps just history generally, which is, I think it's really easy to assume that like queer history from like 1969 when the Stonewall riots happened, up until, like, maybe we'll just say 2016 is this like story of like linear, clean progress? Rest. And you know, before 1969 it was all kind of darkness and closeted people. And then after, it's like we slowly got better and better, and that's just so far from the truth. Like, I think, when you look through the 20th century, you see these like pockets of like queer possibilities, and these ways in which like the public is grappling with, like gender and sexuality, and I think really sort of fascinating in fascinating ways that we just kind of forget about now. And I really think there's just so many lessons in understanding all of these different all of these different moments in the queer past, and the fact that like someone like COVID could exist and be written about in this way in the 1930s so that's just like a general, like, a general framing where it's like, when I'm discovering these stories that I feel like challenge people's notion of how the queer movement has unfolded and how queer people sort of have existed in America, that's always really gonna get my sort of, like, piqued my interest, and then in This case of this particular story, and so you like COVID story. And you also mentioned that there's a couple other athletes who transition gender who are part of this as well. One of them is a British field athlete named Mark Weston, who transitioned in the summer of 1936 shortly after Kobe, and actually married a woman a few months later, which was like a bit of a scandal in the UK, and, you know, like, honestly, like there was just so much structuring narrative behind, just like the actual story that happened, which you also don't get in queer history, you know, the fact that there was, like, kind of a villain in the form of Avery Brundage, who was this, like Olympics official, who kind of used COVID story to create these early like gender surveillance policies at the Olympics. Also, I think most key to this is COVID wrote basically like this long series of personal essays about his life in 1936 and so it's like 40,000 words. It's basically a short memoir, and it's him narrating his life from birth like he actually does have a birth scene, which I'm sort of like, you weren't there for that. So, you know, there's elements, but yeah, exactly, there's some elements of it that are a little sensational. But he explains, like, his whole life and his whole thinking, sort of his relationship to gender and his body, his relationship to sports. He like, lays all out there. And you know, when you were doing, like, margin, any kind of marginalized history, especially, you know, pre World War Two, that is so rare to get a document like that from someone that was really, like, preserved by, you know, like, there is, there is so little, sort of like archival memory of a lot of different marginalized folks, including queer folks. And so when I saw that, and I was like, This man literally wrote out his life story and like that is just like such an incredible document to really structure a book. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 12:50

So I so let me. Let me give you some context of my life. So I read this book kind of during the 2024 Olympics, right after I returned from a trip to Germany. So it was like, exactly where my brain was. And it feels like right now sports is sort of the frontier for conversations around transness and trans Yes, trans athletes, but also, just like trans kids who want to play soccer, which, like, you know, like, maybe they're maybe they consider themselves athletes, but, like, my kids are five and their soccer is, like, not really a sport. So I'm wondering if that's sort of the sense that you get that, like the that the framing of the Olympic the like the great athletes, is somehow being shaped in order to do the work of like fucking with kids and like fucking like, if that, I don't know how to frame the question exactly, but like, if this bigger, if these elite athletes are sort of being used as a way to Teach everyday people how to be transphobic and destroy children's lives? Yeah,

Michael Waters 14:03

I mean, that's a good question. I don't know that I have a great answer to that. I think on some level, I almost am hesitant to ascribe so much logic or forethought to, like, a lot of these like right wing legislators who are are really just trying to demonize trans kids. And I think what they've realized is that like sports is an issue where they feel like they just like, have some kind of like talking point that resonates more broadly. And I also think that's just because people are sort of unwilling to have like, real conversations about how complicated like, you know, just like and just like how complicated this is, that this is, and then also about like how, like access to sports is just a human rights issue, in my opinion, so I think I don't want to ascribe too much logic to connecting these things. But, I mean, I think you saw over the summer, you know, like people like JK Rowling and Elon Musk were behind a. Lot of this, like sort of hatred, and this hatred directed towards Amani Khalif, the Algerian boxer. And I mean, for sure, those are the same people who are pushing for anti trans policies, sort of at all levels. And so I think that probably they are seeing some way of like, if we can sort of conflate these discussions all together. Perhaps they see some kind of advantage. I don't really know. I do think the way that we talk about these things is often bundled up together. And I think for sure it's the same. I think the sort of backlash and the transphobia is the same across all levels of sports and government.

Traci Thomas 15:45

Yeah, you said that you feel like access to sports is a human rights issue. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah,

Michael Waters 15:51

well, so when I say that, I especially mean, like, I think the way that this discussion is often framed is, you know, when we're talking about trans women and women on the intersex spectrum playing in women's sports is often framed as like, Well, is it fair for them to play? And I think that what we need to be doing is we define this as well. Is it fair to exclude them? I just think that, like, rhetorically, we kind of are having these conversations from the wrong place. And to me, like, I don't think it is fair to have these sort of exclusionary policies. So that's what I mean when I say that. I see,

Traci Thomas 16:27

as far as language goes, as you were mentioning at the beginning of this conversation, you know, you you knew what words to search for when you were looking into sort of the history in the 1930s and in different eras. You know, with your expertise, you know what you're looking for. Were there challenges with language that came up for you as you're writing a book in 2024, given the language that was used in the 1930s and how did you navigate that?

Michael Waters 16:52

For sure, endless challenges. I'm still, I'm still navigating it. Yeah. I mean, so I think that there are a bunch of different layers to this. I think even describing Koubek has been really tough for me, because, you know, cobek was transitioning in this era before the public had this sense of gender, you know, this sort of like socialized psychological identity as distinct from like biological sex, which is assigned to you at birth. And so when COVID was talking about himself, and even when he was being written about it would often be through talking about the body. So he would talk about how, you know, like, over time he just, like, felt him, his body becoming more and more like a man's, which is something, it was kind of a trip that you see among a lot of trans people in the 1930s which is, they would sort of frame it as, like, you know, I woke up one day and then suddenly, like, I had a beard, or, you know, you know, just like your body had kind of changed, and that was just because that was the like, easiest way to articulate to the public, like, what was happening, I guess, or just like a way to like when, when it was hard to describe transness as an identity. You could just sort of describe the physical body. And so, you know, COVID at different points does reference, you know, and including in his memoir about how he always felt more like a man, he does, he does sort of articulate this psychological desire to be a man, really, from a young age. But, you know, it's like very possible that he would have fit on an intersex spectrum as well. It's just really hard to know, especially because and it's hard to know how he would have identified, because these words of like trans and intersex as distinct potentially. Well, I guess there's overlap between those communities too, but the full sort of words that we use were not available to him, and so I've really struggled, because I want to, sort of, as a historian, I don't want to sort of impose too much language onto him, and then also as, like, sort of a person who wants these stories to connect to the present and sort of resonate in the present. I, you know, it's like, I do kind of want to add a label, so that people the right people know about it. And, yeah, I mean, it's kind of unresolved, ultimately, how

Traci Thomas 19:07

did you think about it? Like, what was your approach? Were there questions that you were asking yourself as you were working through the language? Like, if it was written like this, I could do that. Or, you know, like, how, how did you tackle it? Because, I mean, you use words in the book. So, like, you've definitely made some decisions. Yes,

Michael Waters 19:23

we'll see if they were right decisions. Well, I think on this very simple level, like cobek actually refer. So when Kobe is writing about his past self, which he does at certain points in the third person, kind of randomly, he refers his past self using she, her pronouns. I pretty quickly was just like, I don't want to do that because of just sort of like contemporary context. So that was a moment when it's like, okay, he's talking about himself this way. I don't really want to do that because that doesn't sort of fit with the way that we write today, essentially. And so there's, like, some moments of departure, and then when it comes to identity. Many labels, I tried to be pretty sparing, actually, in adding too many, you know. So I use words like queer, which didn't have the same meanings in the 1930s as they did now. I also just think queer is nice because it's pretty expansive. And I think there are moments when I refer to cobek as approaching like a trans identity of different of some sort, and that was just a choice that I made, just because, to me, that felt like the clearest articulation of what he was saying that, you know, like, I think readers could really get but, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I struggle with that choice. I also think it's like, you are kind of just taking a shot in the dark to some extent, and being like this feels like the right choice for this book, but perhaps there's a better way to describe transness in the 1930s or sort of different sort of forms of of being on a gender spectrum in the 1930s that, you know, in a future edition, I can change that.

Traci Thomas 20:55

Yeah, yeah. No. I love that you're like, so open to the changing, you know, the ways that language and identity change over time, and I think that's probably the right approach, given you know how much we see the changes, even just within your book, from how certain things are talked about in the 1930s versus how we would talk about them. Now, let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back. I Okay, we're back, and I would like to talk a little bit about the Nazis, if that's okay, because you, as I mentioned, I was in Germany, and I have had a pretty much lifelong fascination with them, because my parents decided it was a great idea to take me to the Holocaust Museum when I was eight. So for the last 30 years, it's been something that I thought about. And so then, for people who don't know, the 1936 Olympics were famously held in Berlin at, you know, pre World War Two, but Hitler was in charge. It was sort of the the kind of ascension of the Nazi party. It was the boots, it was the marching, it was all of those things. And this Olympics has a big impact on gender surveillance. I won't get into the whole like Avery Brundage of it all, but he's one of the reasons that it even happened there. And he's a big Nazi sympathizer, my favorite sports enemy. Some might even say he's a Nazi. I don't know. I don't want to define him for him, but I wouldn't say he's not okay. So I would love for you to sort of explain why and how the Nazis became such a huge part of of this kind of piece of history. Yeah,

Michael Waters 22:42

for sure, I'll try not to go too far down the Avery brendage Rabbit Hole. I think that's like, he's definitely part of this story. I think, at a really high level, like you said, the 1936 Olympics are held in Berlin, hosted by Hitler. And you know, like, leading up to the 1936 Olympics, there's actually this big movement, especially in the US, but in a lot of countries, to boycott the games. And there is this movement, especially on the left, especially organized by Jewish activists and Anti Fascist activists, to say we're not going to send a team to the Olympics, because this is just going to bolster sort of like Hitler's credentials. And basically that movement fails in large part because many members of the International Olympic Committee and then other just sort of like high up sports officials, don't want that to happen, and they do want the Olympics to go on. And in fact, they, some of them, don't really see a problem with Hitler at all. And I think that's important context, because, you know, in 1936 the Nazis are quite influential. You know, in sports, in the Olympics, they're not just hosting it, but they also have a lot of cache and sway, and are sort of like sending messages back and forth with all these officials from across the world, including every Brundage. And you know, they're a bunch of there are a few different sort of characters involved in this. In particular, there's this sports doctor named Wilhelm Noel who, in january 1936 he writes this op ed, actually in kind of direct response to Koubek, the Czech athlete who transitioned. He writes this op ed in a sports magazine, essentially accusing kobeck of being a fraud, and seeming to assume that CO Beck is either on an intersex spectrum or as maybe just like was always like a cis man using our language. It's kind of unclear. I mean, again, you can't really, yeah, ascribe too much logic to like a Nazi writing in a sports magazine. But he essentially, like he used this to call for medical exams of women athletes. So this, although COVID did not want to play in women's sports after he transitioned, this sports doctor took issue with the fact that COVID had played in women's sports at all, and he was actually quite influential at the time. He headed the this, like group of international sports doctors that advised the International Olympic Committee and some of these different sports federations on kind of like. Medical and scientific matters. And so he began agitating for these sports federations to pass policies essentially requiring, like, physical exams of all the women athletes who would participate, with the idea of weeding out, you know, certain people who he did not feel fit. And actually, so Noel writes these letters to all these sports federations, he doesn't get a lot of traction, as he complains in this, like later op ed, where he's, like, everyone ignored me, except for one, which was the track and field Federation. And basically, like, the International Olympic Committee is this kind of, like, overarching governing body of the Olympics, and then more specific policies are often set by federations that, like, govern a group of sports so like track and field, swimming. So basically, everyone except for the track and field Federation ignored Noel, this sports doctor. This is also what I mean where it's like none of this was inevitable. In the 1936 you have the track and field Federation kind of takes up Noel's request, and in August, 1936 passes this really vaguely worded rule about, like, doing physical exams of women athletes, where there's like a question of gender, essentially, and that's really the origins of sex testing and gender surveillance policies. That's the first time that we see on this international level a policy dictating like, which women would be allowed to play, and actually calling for, like, a direct examination of certain women, notably, like they never really wrestled with, like, the fact that, you know, the human body is a big spectrum, not to mention, like, sort of gender being a spectrum. We don't even need to go there. But just like, none of this was sort of discussed in the in the policy that was passed in 1936 and I do think it really is, in large part, because this was like a moment of sort of like fascism on the upswing. And it just seemed perfectly logical, I think, to a lot of these sports officials, that of course, we would try to eliminate certain kinds of women just kind of wholesale from these sports and also, like, we don't even have to get too much into this. But all these, like, the people passed these policies, were all men, and they were all men who largely opposed women's sports itself. You know, like, yes, like, they did not want women to play they were constantly limiting, especially like women track and field athletes. So it's like this group of men who, like, think there's no point in women playing sports. Think that's actually dangerous for women to play sports. These are the same men who are then passing the policy that's saying only certain women are allowed to play.

Traci Thomas 27:28

Right? Just like a personal question for you, how much, how much into sports? Are you? Are you a sports person? Were you a sports person before the book? Did this change your relationship to sports?

Michael Waters 27:39

Yeah, great question. I have to say that I'm not a huge sports person. That's okay. I've, you know, I've watched lots of footage now, sort of for the book, and, you know, like, I've always watched the Olympics. But yeah, I think that I'm always fascinated by the politics of a bureaucracy. And I think sports bureaucracies are extremely weird and wild, and especially Olympics, especially the Olympics, yeah, and so, yeah, and just like, so, like, watching the Olympics, you know, I'm really just like, Oh, I think I just like, know too much about how all of this works, how messy the behind the scenes is. I just, like, kind of got obsessed with, like, sort of the sort of structural elements of sports and the bureaucratic elements of sports. I'm not, unfortunately, streaming sports on a weekly basis, but okay, I'm just

Traci Thomas 28:27

curious. I was just curious, like, your relationship to to the actual, like athletics of it. I'm also curious, what was, what were, if any sort of big surprises for you as you were researching and writing the book, were there things where you were like, holy shit? Like, did not see this coming? Maybe

Michael Waters 28:47

I've kind of spoiled, like, some of the bigger surprises by sort of mentioning them earlier. I mean, honestly, like this article about COVID in the magazine physical culture, this big sports magazine, was really striking to me early in the research, just because it's a sports magazine talking about, like, hey. Like, I mean, they didn't say gender is a spectrum, but, like, there was talking about how like, male and female, like categories are imperfect. You know, a sports magazine in the 1930s that was quite striking. There was also this magazine called sexology in the 1930s that I read a lot of issues of, it was basically this, like, general interest publication about sex in the body, and talking about everything from, you know, like like masturbation to like marital problems to sexual problems, whatever kind of the whole gamut. And it was really one of the only places, because it had this lens of science, although sometimes they publish pseudoscience, but like, had this lens of science. And so it was one of the main places that, you know, like, like, the American public could read about sex and ask questions about sex in a really honest way in the 1930s and they had this letter. So the Editor section, I. Which, you know, separately, some really wild questions were being asked.

Traci Thomas 30:05

Who said letters? Oh my gosh. I read 10 years of this, and I was like, these people are crazy. Some things never change. Where the craziest of humanity likes to show up with yes

Michael Waters 30:17

paper, yes, well, but then, and then, sometimes there's some beautiful things in there. And so one thing that really just struck me is that so sexology wrote a piece about COVID and Weston transitioning, trying to sort of like explain to their audience, like, well, maybe you've heard this news story about these athletes, like, what does it actually mean scientifically? And in response, they got so many letters from people who wanted to know more about how a transition was possible. People who, you know, probably would identify as trans today, who are saying, you know, like, I see myself in these athletes. And like, is there a doctor I can go to? Like, how do I like, sort of, how do I find out more about this? They received so many letters to the editor that they wrote a follow up article where they were just, sort of like, what's going on? Why is everyone trying to do this? And they quoted some of the letters they received. And so this piece, this follow up, I think, was published in 1937 this is a bunch of people writing in being like, I see myself in this athlete, and I too, want to, like, talk to a doctor about this, get access to some of this sort of, like, medical care. And that really just struck me, because it's so hard to find the voices of queer people in the archive sometimes, especially in like, you know, like newspapers and magazines, like, you really have to be creative. I'm in the 1930s we didn't have, like, an openly gay publication of any kind, you know, and so it's like those little glimmers of like, what these stories, what these athletes might have meant to the wider queer community, and I thought that was really incredible to come across. That's so

Traci Thomas 31:47

cool. And how were the athletes transitioning? I know you write about it a little bit in the book, but if you want to just give us a little taste,

Michael Waters 31:56

yeah, I mean, it's honestly, like, kind of hard to untangle, because it's, I mean, the way that, especially for COVID, he writes quite vaguely about it, COVID had two different surgeries that he alluded to, and it's also possible, and maybe likely, that he was taking some kind of, like, early hormone, although he didn't say that. So it's a little bit hard to know. I would say, yeah, yeah, all these athletes went to see doctors, which itself was quite fraught, just because a lot of these doctors were also eugenicists, right? And would only like give, you know, it's like, you're really fighting against the system. And would only give medical care often, if you were white, often, if you know, after you transitioned, you would be read as heterosexual. So, yeah, it was, it was a hard system, but they didn't get into too much detail. I guess it's just what I would say, but I would not be surprised, and I probably expect it's like an interplay of surgery and hormones, yeah,

Traci Thomas 32:51

okay, you mentioned earlier, and I forgot to ask you this follow up, which I think is important, though. I also think I know the answer, but I just want to get it on the record, the record because I'm a journalist, but with the Nazi doctor who was like writing the Op Ed and doing all the things that led to the gender surveillance of women athletes, it did not lead to gender surveillance of the male athletes, correct?

Michael Waters 33:22

Yeah, there's never been, like, any kind of sex testing policy for male athletes at the Olympics. I mean,

Traci Thomas 33:29

that's got to just be like, the most sexist shit ever, right? Like, that's just based on the idea that, like, men are better than women at sports. And, like, if a woman or a trans, trans man wants to try, like, good luck beating Jesse Owens or whatever. Yeah,

Michael Waters 33:45

for sure. And it's also just tied to the fact that, like, I mean, an extension of that misogyny, the fact that women's sports were incredibly scrutinized and still are, throughout its whole history, at the Olympics, in a way that men's sports were not. The fact that, like, there has been, like 100 year battle for there to be enough women's sports at the Olympics. You know that, like, women's sports have always been under the microscope, and women athletes sort of exponentially under the microscope at the Olympics. So, yeah,

Traci Thomas 34:14

okay, this is a well, actually, before we do the hardships, can you talk a little bit about the title and the cover of the book with us.

Michael Waters 34:22

So the, well, first of all, I really love the book cover, and I had basically nothing to do with it. It's so good. I love it so much. It made me really happy to see i It's like, kind of like in like a vintage 1930s like magazine style, which I really loved and thought was so genius. But again, can't, had nothing to do with that. Who

Traci Thomas 34:41

was your cover designer? It was June Park. Oh, amazing, amazing. Well, it's so it is so gorgeous. And that's COVID on the cover. And

Michael Waters 34:48

that is COVID, yes, sort of in midair, which, which was really cool. And

Traci Thomas 34:55

then, what about the title? Did you was that always a title? Did it chain? Which, where did it come from? The

Michael Waters 35:02

title, to be honest, the main title, the other Olympians, just sounded kind of good, although a lot of people have pointed out to me that have asked if it's a reference to this really iconic book the other Victorians, which I I was not originally a reference, but I kind of, like, want to, like, retroactively, make it a reference. The other, the other, sorry, the other Victorians is about, like, homosexuality in the Victorian era, I see. So I'm like, I would have, I'm gonna just sort of say that. It would be cool if that were true, but it unfortunately wasn't

Traci Thomas 35:36

okay. Well, as I mentioned, I'm a serious journalist, and so this is on the record, yeah, to set the record straight right now, you can

Michael Waters 35:44

do that, yeah, I can't reverse quarterback. It just sounded good, ultimately,

Traci Thomas 35:48

okay, okay, is there anything that's not in the book that you wish was or could have been,

Michael Waters 35:56

yeah? I mean, so, I mean, there was this whole sort of section about, actually, another Nazi, this really prominent woman athlete named Violet Morris, who was a French woman who was really one of the most famous, like, kind of, like women athletes in the world in the early 1920s who was this, like, big kind of like butch woman who actually got a mastectomy in the 1920s and caused a lot of scandal in French society because of that. And so, you know, like there was a section earlier in the book that I eventually just cut that talked about her and about how all of this kind of, like gender panic around her, you know, like getting different kinds of, like cosmetic surgeries to her body was sort of like, in some ways, like anticipated different sort of anti trans and anti intersex rhetoric that was to come. And then she also like, if you read the book bad gaze, you might know that, like, she later becomes a Nazi and sort of collaborates with with the Nazis during the Nazi occupation of France. So I thought, like, her arc was really interesting, because I think it kind of dovetails with this, like, rise of fascism. I don't know it deals with a lot. Ultimately, it was just sort of too much to include her too. There are a lot of characters in this book. There are a lot of people in this book, but I think, and also, like, people have written about her story a fair bit, and a lot of these other athletes haven't really gotten much air time at all, but I do think it would have been cool, yeah, but I made the choice to cut it. So, you know, I'm still responsible for that, for better, for worse,

Traci Thomas 37:31

I love that. You're owning this. You're like, I cut that Nazi out of this. Yeah,

Michael Waters 37:37

yeah. Ultimately, she wasn't that inspiring. You know, it's like, yeah, someone had to be her. Had

Traci Thomas 37:41

to be her. Okay, let's talk a little bit about your process. I always love to ask people this, how do you write? How many hours a day? How often? Where are you? Snacks and beverages. Rituals sort of set the scene. Tell us how the magic happens. Yeah,

Michael Waters 37:56

wow. I wish I was so consistent, because I feel like a lot of authors are sort of like, I wake up at 6am and then I write for four hours, then I'm done for the day. I don't I don't really have that. It's

Traci Thomas 38:05

okay. I've been doing the show for now, like, seven years, and a lot of people do that, and then a lot of people are like, I wish I did that, but actually,

Michael Waters 38:13

so don't worry. Well, I also, I wrote a lot of this book while I was working a copywriting job, a remote copywriting job. I think they won't be listening to this I'll just say that like I would be working sort of when, you know, when I'd have slack open and when I felt like no one needed anything from me, I would, you know, toggle over to the Word document. So it was more like kind of a bunch of stolen moments. And why

Traci Thomas 38:36

would you think that they wouldn't be listening to this podcast? It's like, probably, like, one of the biggest podcasts in the history, and then Joe Rogan's right under so, like, they're probably listening,

Michael Waters 38:47

it's so true. Well, I'm really sorry if so, but yeah. And so, as you know, like, I mean, I really like to work, like I work listening to, like, almost always listening to music, which I think some people find crazy, like, I will listen to club music. I don't really know why. Okay, I just do think that's like, something like, gets me a little animated and focused. I also love to be at a coffee shop and just, there's something about, like, lot of noise around you, like, noise in my ears that, like, really lets me, like, lock in. Like, it really feels like I'm like, in this space, whereas sometimes when I'm home trying to write, it is kind of just like, I'm like, looking around. I'm like, looking for something going on, and I think in public, it's much more like I can lock in. It really is kind of just like, whenever I have the time and the inspiration, I also do a lot of writing on my phone. So I like, will, like, write on the subway, sometimes on my phone, just because, you know, if I get sometimes the word document is stressful to look at, and then it's like, Okay, let me just, you know, type this into the Notes app, even into iMessage, and just send to myself. And that's like, a way of, like, I don't know, just like taking some of the stakes away from it, and just like getting something out that has been hard to get out.

Traci Thomas 39:57

And when you go to. A coffee shop to work. What snacks and beverages are you partaking in?

Michael Waters 40:05

I am getting okay, I love a Danish. Often my order will be like, some form of Danish and a large black coffee because, you know, I'm always a little sleepy so.

Traci Thomas 40:16

And is there a favorite Danish kind like, if you go to the shop and they have X, Y and Z Danish. You're like, it is my lucky day. There's

Michael Waters 40:23

one place near me that has a really good cherry Danish, which I think is kind of a curveball. I don't see many cherry Danish as anywhere else. I really am a fan of that. That's me as Where are you located? New York. I'm in New York. I'm in Brooklyn. So the cherry Danish is from Mia's bakery. If anyone is local, I love that spot. Shout out.

Traci Thomas 40:40

Am I? Am I a mi? Am I? Yeah, shout out to Mia and her Danish. Danish. All right, what comes next for you? Do you have another book idea? Are you thinking in that, in that world, is there another piece of queer history that scrambles the timeline that you're super excited about? Can you tell us anything,

Michael Waters 41:01

yes, although it's not exactly queer history. So this is gonna sound like a curve ball, but I'm writing another I'm writing another history book about, sort of the history of credit surveillance in America, and sort of about, like everything leading up until modern credit scoring. And so, you know, I think the connective tissue is, I've been saying to friends, it's 10% gay, like the gay activist movement, and also, sort of like the Black Power movement, the feminist movement are all the welfare rights movement were all sort of like big parts of trying to challenge the credit system in the 1960s and 70s. And I think sort of these efforts to unroll it failed in interesting ways. But yeah, it's basically, it's like a book that is looking at like, how did we get to this place where we have three credit bureaus and this sort of private company that creates this algorithm that decides sort of our financial worth and value and our employability and whether or not we can mention apartment, and it's a wild story that goes back to 1899 so the book is like a history of, just like, how we got here and how, like efforts to dismantle the system.

Traci Thomas 42:12

Oh my gosh. Okay, wait, but the other connective tissue is the surveillance for

Michael Waters 42:16

sure. Okay, that's actually didn't think about that great framing.

Traci Thomas 42:20

Okay, thank you. Is it with Jackson? Is he your editor? Still? Yes, yes, exactly. Oh my God, I'm such a fan. I didn't really know who he was. And then started reading these books, and they all had him as the editor. And I was like, Wait a second, are you a celebrity now for me, because I feel like that. And then I got to meet him at the National Book Awards, and I was like, I'm a big fan of yours. Yeah, yeah, Jackson Howard rising star at FSG, or already a star. I don't know star in my heart, but that book sounds amazing, and I want to ask you questions about it, but I'm not going to, I'm going to stick to this one, just a few more for you. Who was the coolest person in your eyes that was excited or expressed interest in the book? Ooh,

Michael Waters 43:00

there are a lot of people that really excited me. I'm like, Susan Stryker, who's this really iconic historian of trans history, like, blurbed the book, which was so kind and, like, I was so thrilling early on, just because I read her, I read her book transgender history, which is, like, kind of like a classic in the field. When I was in high school, it was, it was one of the books that really got me into doing queer history and sort of understanding how many stories are out there. Yeah. So that was just, like, truly a thrill. And I also, you know, like, I sent the book to Chris Mosier, who's this Olympic athlete who really advocates for trans athletes at the Olympics and in general. And he was really kind about it too. You know, there are a lot of little things like that, but I think that the moment early on, when Susan striker read it, I was like, really great. I love

Traci Thomas 43:53

that. Okay, for people who love the other Olympians, what are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation with your work.

Michael Waters 44:01

Good question. I would say there's, like, maybe two different strands that I could answer this with, because I think there's certain queer history books that, like, at least, I was thinking a lot about as I was writing, I don't know if I would like deign to say I'm in conversation with them. I was reading a lot of the work of Jules Gill Peterson as I was writing this, she has multiple books about queer history and trans history and about sort of like the makings of this idea of gender. And I think she's just like such a brilliant historian. And so I was really thinking about her work as I was writing this. I also there's also this book called How sex changed, that was published in the early 2000s and, you know, like, just is a really full recounting of, like, how Americans thought about, like, gender and sex over time. And then I think the narrative history books there, there's, like, a lot of incredible narrative history books that. I was reading and sort of, like thinking over my head as I was writing this. I really love this book, How to hide an empire, which is about, like, the it's basically, like, about the history of American imperialism and colonialism. It's really, I mean, it's like, does the incredible thing of, like, rescuing all of these somewhat obscure stories about, like, you know, like, where, like, the word bikini comes from, that like, intersect in all these ways with American culture and also rooted in different ways, in, like, colonial oppression. It's just like one of those books where it's like, every page, I was like, That's so crazy. I didn't know that. The first thing in that book that stood out to me is that in the introduction, it talks about how during the bombings at Pearl Harbor, there was also a bombing in the US occupied Philippines at the time, which FDR intentionally erased from mentioning, because Americans didn't realize that they had colonized the Philippines, essentially, and he thought that would be inconvenient in his speech about the Pearl Harbor bombing. So it's like, I mean, it's filled with stuff like that, where I'm, like, I had no idea. So that's how to hide an empire and there. Yeah, they're a bunch more, but I could just kind of leave it there. Okay,

Traci Thomas 46:09

well, that sounds amazing. I'm definitely adding that to my list. But you're right, because your book is, like, a queer history, but also this, like, narrative history, just more broadly, which is, aside from, like, investigative journalism is probably my, like second favorite kind of book, like a history book that has like a narrative arc and has like these figures that you can sort of follow and like get to know. And it's done so I mean, you've done it. You did it so well. I already said it's, like, one of my favorite books from last year. I love it, but you do do that so well, of getting the history really clearly in the book, but also giving us sort of like a story to follow. So it doesn't necessarily feel like you're reading a dry history, which I also like, but not as much as narrative. Okay, normally I only ask this question once a month to my guest who does book club with me, but because this episode airs on january 22 two days after the administration has changed over and because you've written a book about a topic that is just like political catnip right now, if you could require the current president of the United States current as as of January 20, so because people are listening, if you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what Would it be?

Michael Waters 47:21

Well, I mean, you know, I don't think anything is gonna change his mind at this point, and I also don't really think he's gonna read this book. But I guess the book that comes to mind for me is this academic book called Sex is a sex does by Paisley Cora, who is this really incredible scholar. And basically this book is talking about, like, essentially how governments have come to define sex, and sort of about, like, construct these ideas of sex. And it's really about, like, the ways in which different political concerns filter down into, you know, like DMV policies, for instance. It's a really thoughtful book, you know, another book that I read a lot and thought about a lot as I was writing my own book. I think it's also just for anyone who is like, sort of thinking about how bureaucracies work, and especially how they affect trans and intersex people. It's really incredible. I don't think Donald Trump would ever read it, and I don't think he cares about any of this stuff. But, you know, I thought it's a thought exercise. I think other people should read it. It's called sex as a sex does, and, yeah, it's actually mentioned at kind of like the ending author's note in my book as well. It's really like the theory behind that book really framed a lot of this for me.

Traci Thomas 48:36

I love that. Okay, last question, Michael, if you could have one person dead or alive. Read this book. Who would you want it

Michael Waters 48:43

to be? Ooh, this is maybe a cop out answer. But I really would love for COVID, the main athlete in this book, to read it, because I think that I don't know that he would like this book. Jury's out, okay, but I think sort of, I spent a lot of time reading his sort of memoir while researching, and he seems he's a very funny guy. He's also like kind of a hater in a cynic, which, you know, it's kind of a story gay tradition. And I think he would be really funny to talk about this book with, even if he doesn't like it. I think he would be really cutting in a way I would kind of enjoy, and I think we would have, like, fun banter about it. That's

Traci Thomas 49:24

a great answer, and we're gonna get out of here on that. Everyone at home, you can get your copy of the other Olympians wherever books are sold. You can also request it from your library. If they don't have it, you can tell them to get it. I loved this book so much. I hope people read it. It is so engaging and also informative, and just like a wild story, and as I mentioned, there are heroes, there are Nazis, there's my personal enemy. Avery Brundage, like, what else do you need in a book? Michael, thank you so much for being here. Thank

Michael Waters 49:56

you so much for having me. This was really so much fun. Oh, God,

Traci Thomas 49:59

I. Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Michael waters for being my guest. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for January is the ministry of time by Kaliane Bradley. J Wortham will be back to discuss the book with us on Wednesday, January 29 if you love the show and you want inside access to it, you can head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks back and you can check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please, please, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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