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TRANSCRIPT
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Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today is the stacks book club day. It is the final one of 2024 and we are joined once again, by author and podcast host Nora McInerny, she and I are discussing our book club pick tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by rax King. Tacky is a sharp and funny essay collection and memoir that celebrates the pop culture we love even when it's not considered cool, from chain restaurants to reality TV, this book explores nostalgia, joy and the guilty pleasures that shape who we are, and Nora and I dive into all of this, including our favorite tacky things, what we think tackiness says about the culture and a lot more. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our January book club pick will be, and everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. All right, if you love this show, if you want inside access to it, you've got to go to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack. It is just $5 a month, and you get perks all year long, including being part of our Discord, monthly virtual book club meetups, bonus episodes each month, and right now, at the end of the year, at the start of the new year, you're gonna get some special annual perks. You get to vote in our stacky awards. You get access to the mega challenge, which is our 52 prompt reading challenge that lasts all year. And you get access to the stacks reading tracker, only good through the end of January. So if you've been on the fence, now's the time. $5 a month gets you all of that, plus you get to know that you're helping to make this podcast possible. Another perk of the sax pack is you get a shout out on this very show. So shout out to these wonderful humans. Heather, Caroline, Arata, AJ, Maggie reisher, Renee, Chelsea Hayes, hitha, pelipu and Michelle wiles. Thank you all so so much. There is another way to support the stacks. It is my newsletter unstacked. You can get it by going to Traci thomas.substack.com over there. It's a lot of hot takes on books and pop culture. I power rank my reads every single month. There's some mini podcasts that pop up here and there. It's a lot of fun. You can stay up to date on everything I'm doing. Go to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe. Get it directly to your inbox. Okay, now it's time for the stacks book club. Conversation about tacky by rax king with Nora McInerney.

All right, everybody, it's book club day. I am joined again by my best friend, Nora McInerney. Nora, welcome back.

Nora McInerny 2:53

Oh, it's so good to see you. So so good to see you. Today,

Traci Thomas 2:57

we're talking about tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by rax King. This is an essay collection, allegedly about tacky things. We will technically spoil this book, but it's non fiction, so there's not really spoilers, but if you want to read it, pause, come back. Okay, we always start here. Generally, what did you think of the book? I

Nora McInerny 3:21

okay. So this is a thing about me that I think I mentioned the last episode. I never know what a book is about before I read it. So I literally am always judging a book by its cover. I love tacky things. I love a defense of the shallow as something that is actually deep. I consider myself a deeply shallow person, and I just I, yeah, I like deep dives into things that people easily dismiss. And I don't believe in guilty pleasures. I think that is something that has been perpetuated only on women, right? Only we have to feel guilty about, like the things that we like or consume. I was not expecting a memoir, and that's what this is. This is a memoir. It's a memoir in essays. It's a memoir in essays. So yeah, it's not as much about the things, but about the way that these tacky things have shaped the author. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 4:15

that's exactly right, yeah. So that was basically my takeaway. I all I knew about the book, was what it said on the cover, and so great. I think I maybe read a great cover. Great the font on tacky. So good. The colors the whole thing. Well, just obsessed. I thought we were gonna get cultural criticism on tacky shit, which was exactly what I wanted. Same this we got an essay and memoir, memoir and essays. It was not what I wanted. However, I do think what she wrote was good, writing like her essays were good, and if I had known that I was getting sort of like my, my road to an abusive marriage. And I think I would have felt, I think I would have really liked this book, but I kept being like, okay, here we go, Cheesecake Factory. And then being like, Oh, hey, you're on a date. Yeah, on

Nora McInerny 5:14

a date. You're 19 and he's 30, yeah, yeah,

Traci Thomas 5:18

exactly. So I think, like, what I thought I was getting. I did not get enough of and what I did get, I thought was good, but it was not what I wanted, because I thought I was getting more on brown bread. I didn't get enough on brown bread. I didn't

Nora McInerny 5:31

get enough on brown bread. I didn't get enough on mall culture, yes, oh my god, that one was disappointing. Yeah? Or warm vanilla sugar too, yeah, which I think if we, if we want to get into that, like, the hierarchy of balancing whatever scent you liked from Bath and Body Works with your hierarchy in the the friend group,

Traci Thomas 5:59

yeah, you know, yes, only one girl

vanilla vanilla sugar,

Nora McInerny 6:05

who gets vanilla sugar? How it wasn't me I wanted so bad I had it. Couldn't wear it to school, though, because it was that sent belong to someone else.

Traci Thomas 6:13

There was a guy that I liked in high school, and he he wore it okay? It was like, his thing. It was like, his thing, yeah. And because it used to be seasonal, I don't know if it still is, but it used to only come out at the holidays, and he would, like, hoard it small, but smart and smart, that's where all the time. So when I was reading that essay, I was like, Oh my God, I know this smell. I know

Nora McInerny 6:39

that smell. I love that smell. I could, I could, I would know that smell anywhere, and it would take me back. It

Traci Thomas 6:45

still exists. My kids school. Yeah, my kids are in elementary school, but it is connected to a middle school. And the other day, I was walking my kids into school after reading the essay, and I said, one vanilla sugar, and there was like, this little 12 year old girl with her little backpack, a little seventh grader or whatever. And I was like, there she is, Miss thang.

Nora McInerny 7:10

Get bullied, and I'm gonna deserve that kids head down. Keep walking down. Head down. Don't look at her. Don't look okay. This girl is an alpha, and we know that actually think it's really smart if you are a straight boy to wear a girl scent. I think that's that's kind of like a secret way to, like, lure girls in. And I say that as a person who used to wear men's cologne because I got it for free at a beauty launch, and men were obsessed with me when I wore cologne, I wear

Traci Thomas 7:38

men's deodorant. Yes, I'm sweating too me too old, spice. I love it. And then my husband like deodorant. I'm like, I do, but it's not what you wear. It's my deodorant. He's like, but it's men's yo, right? I'm like, well, but it is my it's

Nora McInerny 7:54

my signature scent. That's my scent. It's swagger, and that's very clearly me, okay?

Traci Thomas 8:02

Oh, my God, no. I mean that essay, I was like, waiting, yes, waiting for I just wanted the cultural criticism so badly. But I think where I I want to ask you, since you love tacky things and and that kind of thing, because, like, she starts the first intro essay is fantastic. Yeah, she sort of lays out what the plan is. I do not think she achieves the plan, but she talks about like. She just, well, let me read it. Here's her definition of like, what tacky is. She says, As far as I'm concerned, tackiness is joyfulness to be proudly tacky, your aperture, for all the too much feelings, angst, desired, joy, must be all the way open. You've got to be so much more ready to feel everything than anyone probably wants to be. It's a brutal way to live.

Nora McInerny 8:52

I highlighted the same thing,

Traci Thomas 8:54

I love it. I just I love it. I mean, she has other things about what what's tacky. But I'm wondering for you, like, going into the book, what did you think? What were you think? Like, what is tacky to you? What is the epitome of tacky

Nora McInerny 9:07

in your mind? I think tacky is such a tacky, like, any kind of taste is so subjective,

Traci Thomas 9:14

too, yeah,

Nora McInerny 9:16

and I don't know, I always think of it as something that someone I wouldn't like wouldn't like. I don't like snobby people. I don't like people who think they're like too good for something. Yeah, and I was raised by snobs, by the way, and I just remember being like, what if we just went to Disney World, and you let me decide if it's right, right, right, if it's cool or not, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what about that? But I think anything that's like, too flashy or too earnest, you know, so wearing, like, you know, when you're in that the airport, you. In Las Vegas, or really, any Western State, and there'll be, like, a whole store with just Bejeweled hats, and it just looks like Ed Hardy and true religion, Natalie Dazzler, you know? And it's like, that is just such an earnest way of dressing. It's like, I love this, right? Like, I love this. I love the the cross so much I need it bedazzled on a hat that also says sexy, okay, yeah, because those are things that I identify with. And yeah, so yeah, it's like, tacky is, like, one of those things that you know it when you see it, but really, what you're seeing is, I guess, like, your own snobbishness, if that makes it easier, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 10:49

right, because it only triggers tacky once it reaches your level of tacky. So like, you might think something is tacky that I don't, or vice versa, but like, once it hits the threshold like, tacky, tacky, yeah, yeah, okay, when really it's like, it's like tacky behavior, to me, is so different than like tacky and so like tacky behavior is like telling somebody how much something cost, right? Or like, not tipping, a lot not tipping, not tipping is tacky, right? It's like, yeah, it's, it's like a cultural behavior is like, cheap, cheap Yeah, cheapness, yeah, cheapness. Or like, sort of, like a kind of rude meanness to it. But I think tacky things are also have a cheapness to them, yeah, yeah. They might not be not expensive, but they look not expensive. Where they feel like it feels to wear a Bejeweled cross hat that says sexy is very much the opposite of wearing a Chanel hat, right? Like it's like that, even if they cost the same, one looks cheap and one looks

Nora McInerny 11:57

rich, whatever is the opposite of quiet luxury that's tacky, you know, is tacky. And I am like, I do like tacky things. I think, you know, even as a kid, I just like, gravitated towards like, maximalism, shiny things, Magpie behavior, you know, those little formed crystal figures that you can get at gift shops, and it's like, vaguely looks like a swan.

Traci Thomas 12:25

And you're like, you're into all of that. That's so I I like tacky, but I think that I learned to like tacky in college as a joke, you know, like in I mean, I went to NYU. It's very, yeah, I'm a theater part. It's very, very ironic to be tacky in that way, but authentic child me and still adult me glitter a sequin, I if it sparkles, if it's a glitter, if it's a sequin, if there's a rhinestone. But I was also a dancer, so those costumes, like, when I watch Dancing with the Stars, I'm like, Babe, that that tail on your gown is working when you do the cha, cha, cha,

Nora McInerny 13:09

and I want it, and I don't know why I'm gonna wear it, but, like, yes, so that

Traci Thomas 13:14

the like, tackiness of like a costume or like that, I love, but I think my threshold for tacky in life is very like, of tacky things in life is very low, like those stores at the at the airport, I'm instantly like, I can't even get candy here, like I can't walk in there. I'm disgusted and revolted, but I don't like, I don't really wear bright colors, like I'm not I struggle with that thing, but tacky culture I love, yeah, like a chain restaurant obsessed Spice Girls, Sign me up. Like the music, the nostalgia, tacky of my childhood. I love. I don't know that if I could think of like a tacky cultural moment. Now, if I love it, but all the old stuff I

Nora McInerny 14:04

do still love, yeah, it's hard to think of something now, it's almost like it has to be retroactively applied, or something has to be like passe to get that title put on it. But right, like, can something be tacky in the moment, yeah, because I didn't know, and I still am sometimes shocked. I grew up in Minneapolis, and then I went to school in Ohio, and there were major differences, like in 2001 target wasn't in Ohio. I was like, What are you talking about? All right, I gotta go to where in Ohio, Cincinnati. I was like, Meyer, I'm going to my I don't know what that is. I don't know what Meyer is, but I didn't know. I believed things to be exclusive to Minneapolis that were absolutely chain restaurants, and I believed things to be exclusive to Cincinnati, Ohio, that turned out later to be chain restaurants. And like, what? Didn't know. Like, I. I showed up to this school that was like, East Coast adjacent right, Ohio, very close, very cusp. East Coast time. I didn't know, like, I didn't know what anything was like. I was so Midwest.

Traci Thomas 15:10

Of you to say that Ohio is Midwest is East Coast adjacent because I'm a coastal person, and I'm like, Ohio is center of the marginal,

Nora McInerny 15:17

but it's on the East Coast time. It's like, it's over there. It's definitely over to the right. And if you're facing the map above it right, that's to the right. And like, I would wear, like, this was like, the height of like, J Lo beauty. So like, I was wearing, I didn't know I was wearing knockoff Chanel glasses when I wore, like, the pink lens glasses with the crystal heart on them, with a matching pink glitter belt and matching pink Pumas. I didn't know. I didn't know. Oh, I had a

Traci Thomas 15:48

pink velour jumpsuit. Of course, I was too tired. That's what I wore when I moved into college door.

Nora McInerny 15:54

I would have seen you, and I would have been like, I want to be. Smells like warm vanilla. I would have said that girl could bully me, and I want her to, okay, I probably would have. I would have said to do it. Do it. I also think I'm a loser. I didn't know, I didn't know, like, what any of these things were. So like my I think I almost like these things as like a defense of like my past selves

Traci Thomas 16:16

too, right? Like you now, you know, I finally figured it out. I finally

Nora McInerny 16:20

figured it out. Or when you're in college and you know, a boy wants to show you a movie, and you're like, Okay, so this is gonna prove how deep you are. And he's like, what's your favorite movie? And you're like, I can't say Legally Blonde, do you? Yeah?

Traci Thomas 16:34

So I feel like I've reclaimed that as an adult now people like much favorite movie. I'm like, How to Lose a Guy in 10 days? A perfect movie, perfect movie, perfect. But I used to be embarrassed and be like, Yeah, on the waterfront, and now I'm like, A League of Their Own. The real answer is A League of Their Own. That is my number one, a one, most favorite movie has been my entire life. If I ever say anything else I am lying to either look cooler or to look stupider, those are the only options. I'm either trying to play it up or play it down. It's a league of their own. That's it.

Nora McInerny 17:04

I didn't know the Cheesecake Factory was a chain, is what I'm trying to tell you. Traci, when they opened it in Minneapolis, Minnesota, okay? And by that, I mean the suburb it opened at South Dale, I thought, What a great new restaurant that I've never heard of. I

Traci Thomas 17:21

do remember the first time I went, I was down here in LA visiting a cousin. I was living in the Bay area at the time, and it was like, her 13th birthday. And it was like, fancy. It was like a fancy thing. And I remember I came back to visit another time, and I was like, Can we go to the Cheesecake Factory? I knew it was a chain, but I don't feel like we had one close to us at the time in the Bay Area, but I still love the Cheesecake Factory.

Nora McInerny 17:45

I that's what my eight year old, that's his. One of his wishes for this year is to go the Cheesecake Factory. What is the What's your go to order? He's I have not been there in probably 15 years. I couldn't I'm like, Is there even anything I can eat. I'm celiac. I don't know,

Traci Thomas 18:02

yeah, I don't know, but I don't know, but I bet I think

Nora McInerny 18:05

they are salad, they've got a salad menu. They've got a, yeah, they have

Traci Thomas 18:08

so many. There's definitely things, yeah, because it's, it is, it is for everyone. For everyone is luxurious, yes, like, you have to be fancy to go there. And they, there's, there's things, there's things you could have, chicken wings, right? Yeah, I think so, where they're

Nora McInerny 18:25

breaded, yeah, they're breaded, and what kind of fryer they use, but, like, right? So you can't have the brown bread. I can't have the brown bread, but you better believe that I always had the brown bread because I had no idea what was wrong with me. I just let everyone when

Traci Thomas 18:39

did you find out you were celiac? Like, 31

Nora McInerny 18:40

my husband was dying. I feel like lot happened to you in that time. We'll put this on the back burner.

Traci Thomas 18:50

Yeah. Okay, priorities, yeah.

Nora McInerny 18:51

I was like, Oh, I'll deal with that later. Because also, bread was, like, my very favorite thing. But you know what? The racks King had the best description of the brown bread. Traci, when she wrote, It just tastes like brown. And I was like, that's 100%

Traci Thomas 19:08

it. Okay? I have a compression, yeah. I prefer the white bread. Wow. I do. I do. Okay. I prefer the white bread. I like it. I think I like the flavor slightly better. It tastes better with butter. Oh, and I like butter more than anything. I love on the butter. I love I love butter. I don't. My kid is really into butter. And I'm like, That's right, he's also into glitter. I'm like, are you me? Yeah, like, the two things, he'll be like, Oh, Mommy, can you wear this to drop off? And it's like, I have these gold shoes that have this giant bow. And I'm like, Babe, I'm wearing dirty sweatpants from yesterday. He's like, Oh no. He's like, Please wear that. Wear this, wear this, to stop to that

Nora McInerny 19:46

bad mom and wear the glitter shoes to drop off. Do you like me today in glitter shoes? Okay, maybe I will full sequin gown, full sequin gown. He'd be like, I heard you. I saw you. I'm here. Yeah, I. What

Traci Thomas 20:00

you want. This who you want, your mom. Today, I'm here. This is me. Okay, wait, let's talk. I want to talk a little bit more about tacky before we talk about more into the book. I think one of the things that I was thinking about, speaking of my kid, is, like, a lot of the things that are tacky are things that children love. And I'm wondering, because, like, she compares us sort of to this, like, joyfulness, yeah. And I'm wondering, like, is it something that speaks to us before we like, know better, that once we're like, socially conditioned to not like these things, that we like, feel shame about them, and so it's like, oh, well, that's tacky. But when it's kind of in this earnestness thing, right? Like, when we're young and we don't know better, there's this earnest love of my pink sparkly skirt from my kid or my gold shoes, but at some point he's gonna learn, because toxic masculinity and also, like toxic mom, like he's gonna eventually learn like it's not appropriate to wear fucking gold sparkle shoes to pick you high heels to pick you up with my dirty Old Navy sweatpants. Toxic, but

Nora McInerny 21:06

I don't know. Skillinity, yeah, something you need to, I need to trademark moving forward.

Traci Thomas 21:11

That's me, toxic, Mom. Skillinity, I can't say it, but I can feel it in my heart, and I can do

Nora McInerny 21:16

it best written out. And I think that's okay. There's certain

Traci Thomas 21:19

things. I'm gonna put it on a shirt in the tacky font. Should with the picture of the doll in the martini glass. Toxic Mom, skillinity, it's me. Pink is for girls. Yeah, just all these horrible things. Stop crying. But yes, I do. I'm like, I just feel like for me as I was reading the book, when she was actually talking about tacky things, I kept thinking like, isn't that just like, like a like, a callback to the youth and, like, the nostalgia stuff?

Nora McInerny 21:49

Yeah, I think some of it is, and I think some of it too is like, I don't want to say classist, but kind of right, because, for sure, look, that's right, people who look down on, like, the Cheesecake Factory. Or, you know, hot topic, actually, the hot topic, I say, was something that I really, really enjoyed, too, because there's like, this gatekeeping of taste, right? Or like, Oh, you bet you must unlock this secret portal to, like, having, like, a good taste. And, yeah, you know, I've said it before, like, I felt that way about the meatloaf essay, too. I was like, Yes, you do like meatloaf. Yes you do. If a meat song comes on, yes you do. Yes you do.

Traci Thomas 22:34

Like, no meatloaf. I don't know meatloaf. I'm black. I'm gonna send you not cultural,

Nora McInerny 22:40

I'm gonna send you a song, and you'll be like, Okay, I get it. And maybe that's just because that was the karaoke song that my dead husband sang when I was supposed to sing the girl parts. And he was so good at karaoke. I was like, I'm too shy for this. And I just sat down my microphone and walked away for the night dead. I was like, I got it all from him. Like, he died and, like, zapped it into me. He was, like, into you. There you go. You're like, I have to carry this. Yeah? It's like, I will, I will be able to walk into a party. I promise. I won't just stand outside of it, okay? But I think, yeah, I think mostly it's like, Oh, if you knew better, you wouldn't like this stuff, right? Like, you actually been to Italy, you wouldn't like the Olive Garden. And it's like, right, okay, well, most people are never gonna go to Italy,

Traci Thomas 23:23

right, right. But also, I mean, and also you like, I like Tex Mex is some great food, yes. But people, it's not Mexican food. And I feel like, Yeah, but I do feel like text like, anyways, yes, yeah, I agree with you. I also feel like some of the stuff, like hot topic, again, not for me, not because I thought it was, I was just more of a limited two girl. No, yeah, like it wasn't. That's just like a different kind of child. And I hot topic was not gonna give me the pink sequin. No thing you know, like it was, it was giving a different kind of child, and it just wasn't me. It was very scared of hot topics. Yes,

Nora McInerny 24:04

I was very afraid of I was like, those kids are, like, they're probably, like, smoking a cigarette in there. I don't they're

Traci Thomas 24:11

doing drugs, and they're definitely having sex, yeah, like they were, like, the bad kids, and also, like, weird kids too, like, tough, like tough kids. Yes,

Nora McInerny 24:20

they were tough and they were scary, and they were all congregating there, and they were wearing black, and black is the devil, okay? And they're wearing, like, shirts that say Slayer. I don't know what that means, but I think it's mean and scary. And I am on my way to limited too, right? And I might stop by Claire's on the way there. Hot Topic was always, like, on the first floor of a mall, like, in a corner. Oh, what? Our Mall? It was upstairs. Okay, it was like, it just was in. It was away, it was away, it was away in the corner. It was always, it was like, edgy, but I married a guy who was, like, who freaking loved hot topic,

Traci Thomas 24:55

so, but in my mind, hot topic isn't actually tacky. It's a different thing. Hmm, yeah, yeah. I think, like the joyfulness aspect was never there for me. And I do, I do agree with her that tacky, like, because she she compares tacky and Traci, and she says, To my mind, Traci ness is distinct from tackiness. It's closed off and uninviting. It's unpleasant. If tackiness is about joyfully becoming. Traci Ness has already become. And there is not one joyful thing about the thing. It has become. And I think she's right. I think the difference between like, something being tacky has to have joy, it has to have fun. There's whimsy to tacky. Yeah? There is like, a giggle with tacky, yeah, Traci is like, ick, yeah, dead serious and like, maybe rough, maybe violent, maybe just like someone's being laughed at with Traci with tacky, we're all just having a grand old time. Yeah,

Nora McInerny 25:58

I think the hot topic of it, like, does have that joy for, like the right people, for the right kid, you know? And I think it's like this little haven of kids who don't fit in in a very, very specific version of their world. And this is, like, the place where they can access things that kind of become that portal to another universe, which I, yeah, appreciated about that take too, like her take about that is like, yeah, you know, oh, here's like this store, like a a corporate store that you could walk into and you're like, every wall I can, I can get, you know, like, it's, it's very fandom oriented too. Like nowadays it's very fandom oriented. So it's like, oh, I can get, you know, a special, like, anime shirt here, or I can get, kind of, like a costume, be outfit that sort of, like, lets me feel different and like signals to the world that I am different and right? I don't have, like, a soft spot for that place too

Traci Thomas 27:09

well, I think, I think it's just for the right kid, it's the right place. And there's other places for other kids that do the same thing, like, for me, it was dance costumes, right? It's like, that's a portal to being a totally different person, and like, it's niche in certain ways. At least it feels niche when you're like a dancer girl, right? It's like, also like horsey girls, yes, that same like esthetic. It's like, it just has such a strong esthetic, and it's a way that kids can feel like, This is who I am, this is where I belong. And I think all of those things are extremely tacky, and also, like, so important in our like, self development as being like, these are my people, yeah, like,

Nora McInerny 27:50

being like, I need a wallet chain so everyone knows, like, I have a wallet. Yeah, I shop at hot tub. Can't take it, and I've got, like, a big metal ball necklace that you could also get at the hardware store. And I'm like, I'm wearing, like, my dance jacket so everyone knows like, what I belong to, and that's exactly as we grow up, we don't have like, those signifiers get a lot more subtle. Yes,

Traci Thomas 28:21

I wonder if that's part of it is, like, things that signify are tacky. Yeah, yes. Like that, you have to be like, hey, hey, look at me, which is why sometimes fancy things can be tacky, like someone who's wearing, like, head to toe, Louis Vuitton, you're like, Babe, it's tacky. We get we get it. We don't need a shirt, a blouse, a belt and a suitcase and a hat and a shoe, like I see that you're wealthier than me, but like that, anything that is communicating something extremely directly, a cyber tacky. A cyber truck is tacky. Is tacky as hell. A cyber truck is tacky. Certain Teslas I find to be tacky. I really do well, especially now I find all time, especially now, yeah, I'm like, don't you want to return that? I know you. I know you don't care about the environment that much,

Nora McInerny 29:07

believe me, yeah, but I see a cyber truck. I'm like, Oh, I'm like, oh, small penis too. Yeah. I'm like, You're you're trying to all fall. It's okay. It's okay. Their fields are standing by.

Traci Thomas 29:19

Yeah, there are people who can help you with this, who can help Yeah, I do. I think maybe that's something to it, where it's like things that announce themselves or announce you to others, yeah, are tacky, yeah, and

Nora McInerny 29:34

a mall restaurant will do that. A mall restaurant will announce it will that's true, because guess what? You're not finishing that meal, and you are. You're leaving with a bag. You're leaving with a branded bag

Traci Thomas 29:43

that is marketing. Yeah, okay, wait. We're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna come back and talk about some of the essays. More in detail. Okay, we're back. It's time to talk about the essays. Did you have a particular we've talked about vanilla, sugar and hot. Topic. Did you have a particular favorite essay or one that stood out to you as, like, really doing something that you liked? Oh,

Nora McInerny 30:08

I liked the shopping mall one, a lot. I liked the shopping mall one. I also wanted this, just like a small design thing, but I wanted the chapters to be more like, set apart or something. I don't know. There's just something about them where I was like, Oh, I wish that I could, like, tell what chapter I'm in easier, even though I know it's at the top. But I'm just like, Yeah, I feel like, What? What? Oh, actually, the Creed one. The Creed one was my favorite. It started out really strong, and yes, it's one of those things where, like, I can't stand when people are snobby about music, like mainstream music, and they're like, oh, that's like, so bad. I'm like, Well, I don't know. Maybe you just don't like

Traci Thomas 30:51

it. Okay, yeah, I am such a snob about so many things. Music is not one of them, because I'm not that into music, so I only like pop music, like I only like my Spotify wrapped all five songs, Beyonce, that was it. It was Beyonce. Beyonce, Nora Jones, Traci Chapman, Fleetwood, Mac and Kendrick. Lamar,

Nora McInerny 31:16

damn. Okay. Great, dinner party. Great. Never

Traci Thomas 31:18

heard of any of those people. If you haven't, you know even less about music than I do, because those are icons of the stage, okay, but like, I don't. I was never into creed, but I just didn't listen to that. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was more like, what radio station were you listening to? And I was not listening to the alt rock. I was listening to the hip hop, right? Yeah,

Nora McInerny 31:40

they were on our they were in one Oh, 1.3 kg. WB, which was our kind of everything station. They were

Traci Thomas 31:48

on our everything station. So I don't know, like, can you take me higher? Yes, but whoop

Nora McInerny 31:52

and I remember hearing that song and being like, I am really touched. This a good song about having a baby, and I am only in high school and many years away from becoming a parent, but I hope that I am with a man who feels this way about our baby. I was very okay. That got me my Catholic school soul, and I was like, Yes, welcome to this world. I'll show you everything with arms wide open. Okay, yes, wow,

Traci Thomas 32:18

I don't I couldn't tell you any other lyrics besides, with arms wide open,

Nora McInerny 32:23

welcome to this world. I'll show you everything. That's all, that's all you really need to know. I wouldn't have bought a CD, but it was like, it was always on MTV. So it was like, Yeah, I'm not gonna change the station to this, you know? And then I felt really bad, like, I always, I feel very bad when people have, like, a downfall, and other people are cheering for it, and the only thing they did was kind of like exist, like he was, like he was just a neutral, you know,

Traci Thomas 32:53

I see, I don't, I like this essay as an essay, but I didn't, didn't. I don't have a connection to him, no or to them. But I think one of the things that this essay made me think a lot about, which is something we talk a lot about on this podcast, is like, do we just hate things that go down easy? If something is Beloved, do we just hate it because we're all we all want to be, like, snobby. We did a Colleen Hoover book this year for Book Club, which, I mean, it was not a good book. The writing is not good. Okay, it goes down so smooth. You can read this 400 page book in about 37 seconds. There's a lot of issues with it, but when I announced this book, let me tell you, I have never received more pushback from my listeners and my followers about why this book was a problem, and there is domestic violence, and people were saying that it did this and that, and I understand the criticism. However, the book itself didn't do all that. Okay, yeah, the book, the book is not good, but there's something about like, hating something because it's like, simple or basic. Yes, that I think is really like, is an interesting thing to me. Is an interesting idea of, like, the earnestness of a thing that is pretty straightforward is, like, easy to destroy, yes, at closer look, which I think she gets at with creed,

Nora McInerny 34:17

yeah. And with everything, it's like you're supposed to want to go eat at. She mentions, like, Oh, these are the Michelin starred restaurants and done. I've eaten at some of them, and you know what? I left hungry because it wasn't enough food. Okay? And I don't want a foam, I don't want an emulsion. I don't want something like beautiful. I need, like, 2000 calories, yeah, for a dinner to make sense to me, okay, exactly. I don't want that. I want a lot of food, and it doesn't even need to be that good. But I do think that there's something to Oh, it's like, the the challenge of it, or it's like, oh, I discovered something, and that makes it more, you know, valuable. Or somebody. Be deemed it art, and therefore it is art. But if I can, you know, if, like, oh, well, if I could do that, well then it's just no good and, right? That's why I don't, if I'm, if I write about books, there's one exception to the rule, and I was very tame on it, because I was like, Well, it's a matter of taste, right? It is a matter of taste. But it's like, if I don't like something, I'm mostly just like, like, let it go.

Traci Thomas 35:24

If I don't like something, I explain what I like and why, yeah, but, but I also am, like, a natural born critic, yeah? And I like, that is just who I am. Like, I used as a kid, I used to go see shows with my mom and her friends, and we would leave, and I'd be like, this was this, and this with that. And they were like, Oh, you hated the show. Like, no, I loved it. It was the best thing I've ever seen. But I'm gonna tell you every like, Oh, her shoelace was untied. Oh, this like, I'm obsessed with, like, nitpicking things. Like, one of my great joys is to, like, sit with a friend and talk about, like, one little thing that happened at a party and, like, obsess over it for hours. Like, that's just who I am. I cannot let things I cannot be like, Oh, I didn't like it. I have to be like, This is why I didn't like it. Didn't you hate it too? I

Nora McInerny 36:06

actually, I really liked the way that you wrote about wicked, and that explained a lot to me about how I felt, and then I've just repeated that to other people.

Traci Thomas 36:14

Well, everyone's yelling at me that I'm being too contrarian, and I'm like, Okay, well, I'm sorry, but I didn't like it.

Nora McInerny 36:20

Yeah, I think that's okay. I also didn't really like the Barbie movie. Oh, I hated the bars, like I don't, I don't get it. And also, I hated the line where the Creator goes us mothers stand still so our daughters can see how far they've got. I was like, What are you talking

Traci Thomas 36:35

so tapped out by then, no, that I hated that movie. I was like, I didn't have a sub stack at the time, because that would have been a whole month of sub stacks. I was like, I get it. I don't get it. I don't know. I was like, it was okay, okay, it was okay. It was great, for sure, it was a movie. For sure, it was a movie. Yeah, it was a great design concept with no plot 100%

Nora McInerny 36:56

and any other year, I think people would have been like, that is tacky. That movie is tacky to like that movie would be tacky. But yes, it had the Greta Gerwig of it all. It had the Noah bomb back of it all. And therefore art by metallic

Traci Thomas 37:15

art, TM, metal. Okay, wait, but on this same line, because she talks about this in a different essay, the Josie and the Pussycat Doll Josie and the Pussycat Doll movie essay. I think it's called Three Little Words. That's the name of the essay. Three small words, yeah. And she gets it, okay. This is what I want to talk about with you, because I know you'll have thoughts and feelings. She talks about how the taste of girls is often sort of derided, and that critics and men sort of poo poo these things. And I was thinking a lot about how as a woman, and I think this also goes like as a black person, or, you know, whatever, whatever outside group you might fit into, we are conditioned to take ourselves and our taste out of the way that we view art, and to say, this is Catcher in the Rye. This is for boys or whatever, but I see how the writing is good, or this is the Revenant. This movie is serious and for men, and he's cold, and so am I watching it. And this is great cinema, but, like nobody ever throws me a fucking bone on center stage, one of the greatest films ever made in the history of the American cinema. And so I thought it was really interesting, because I also think, to your point about Guilty Pleasures earlier, that this tacky culture is just sexist as hell.

Nora McInerny 38:43

I think it is. I think none of these things are male interests, right? Like which, I mean, I guess there's only so much you can write about if it's a memoir and essays and you're a woman. But right? Yeah, they're not talking. There's not, you know, an Ed Hardy essay. There's not a, you know what actually I think is tacky. That's more for men are, like, really loud, like the silly little motorcycles, like the ones that are Harley Davidson, you know?

Traci Thomas 39:09

Yeah, that are so loud, yeah, and they're like, what I think is tacky for men. Women do it too, but I find it tacky when men do it, when men are like, decked out head to toe in their favorite sports teams gear, wearing, like, other men's names on their shirts. And I'm just like, that is so tacky to me. You're quoting my dead dad. Oh, and I love this. He is in this room with us, and he is like, Yes, he was like, he was like, so tacky. Like, why are you dressed up as another guy? Like, a leader, like you're just in a costume, like my kid was a football player for Halloween, like you're dressed up, like Travis Kelsey. What it is show me that is, that

Nora McInerny 39:49

is male tackiness, that is male tackiness. And yeah, that's a really

Traci Thomas 39:56

good so few things I feel like, but even that. Which I think is so fucking tacky nobody it's not considered tacky broadly, no, in the way that Josie and the Pussycat Doll movie or hot topic, or a Bejeweled hat or Juicy Couture sweat suit or whatever, vanilla sugar, yeah, like Ed Hardy might be the closest to a tacky thing that is body spray. Oh, okay, which is that is considered male. Warm, vanilla sugar, that is, that is, but yes, most tacky things are not directed at men.

Nora McInerny 40:32

No, I think you're right. Yeah, we are the only people have to more defend just the things that we like for the sake of liking them. And I don't, yeah, yeah. I don't remember the the critical reviews of Josie and the pussy cat, because I was maybe a teenager when that movie came out. But I was like, it was like, Oh, that movie is made for me, right?

Traci Thomas 40:57

Like, well, that's the thing, yeah. Reviewers act like this, like this school. And Ebert, I don't think this was made for you. No, so step back and say, Well, if I was a 15 year old girl, yeah. Like, like, that's the thing that critics are asked to do, which is, like, does the art what does the art do? Does it do what it set out to do? And does it do it well? And like, did I like it? Yes or no. And those are like the different things. And I think when women or people of color are asked to review content, they do that, they say, this wasn't for me, but blah, blah, blah. But I think when white men do it, it's like, this is bad, this is garbage, this is trash. And it's like, but, babe, you're not the target audience, yeah? Like, like, I don't know. I don't think they wrote Mary Had a Little Lamb for grandpa's, like, I don't. I just it's not giving doesn't feel right to me. And I think, like, I think it's such a disservice to a lot of really good art that is for the exact right audience, yeah. Like, Bluey is beloved, a beloved TV show, because parents like it and kids like it, but like my kids, like a bunch of shitty shows that I fucking hate, but my kids love them. So those are they're doing something right if the audience, which is like four year old kids, are obsessed, like, I'm not supposed to like super kitties. Like, I don't think that's for me. The fact that I like bluey is a bonus. But like, that doesn't mean super kitties is bad. It just means that, like, I should go do dishes or something right now, I feel

Nora McInerny 42:33

like bluey is more targeted to parents, and just so I think kids like it. They're like, oh, I want to, I want to tell parents that, you know, they're, they're okay mentally, and give them some regulation tools. And then also their kids can watch this.

Traci Thomas 42:46

Yeah, it's also, it's a cartoon, yeah, in the Josie and the pussy cat dolls essay, she says, if you need to re watch something, it's a sign that it is good and not perfect. And I love that. Let me see if I can find that line about the good, the good verse on 89

Nora McInerny 43:03

I loved, I loved, loved, loved, her definition of perfect. Here's what she

Traci Thomas 43:11

says. She says to speak effectively about a piece of entertainment as seemingly goofy as Josie and the Pussycats, is important to first distinguish between the good and the perfect the good is tasteful. You can see that thought has gone into it. It is carefully layered, and so lends itself nicely to interpretation. As a result, it wants maybe to be deconstructed, or else it is cons. Or else, its constituent parts are so elaborate that it must be deconstructed. It impresses, but probably not in any unexpected way, consider a film. A good film ought only to be called a film, never a movie like I don't know. Show a ponderously long check, exhaustively researched check, wrenching to the point of causing physical agony. Check, see also the gorgeous, tense work of Werner Herzog, or the poetry in the music of the national these are good works, which is fine. Good work commands respect, even if it isn't to your personal taste, you must respect the time and training that informed the people who have produced good work. Not so with perfect a jangly three minute pop song with a hand clapping section can be perfect in a way that a song with an unusual time signature cannot the artifact, in this case, is its own packaging. The form and structure of a perfect thing are tricky because they need to look as if they don't exist. A perfect song should sound as if it were somehow already stuck in a first time listener's head. A perfect movie should partake gleefully of tired old tropes and make them so much fun that a viewer doesn't care, maybe even delights in the familiar. As food writer Helen Rosner once wrote of her favorite perfect food, the humble chicken tender. Perfection is a precarious state. It occupies a narrow peak, the very pinnacle of the mountain. By its very nature, perfection leaves no room for wildness or risk. I highlighted. That too. So good. It's like, yeah. I mean is that? Is that? That's what was frustrating about the book, is I wanted all that the whole time. I did not want her weird relationship with her old neighbor boy who gave her or old neighbor man who gave her concert teas. I was like, you, I know. And you and I are both prudes. So how did you deal with it?

Nora McInerny 45:21

I know. I know. I'm Yeah. I also was like, Oh, the Excel spreadsheet. I was like, okay,

Traci Thomas 45:27

yeah, it was too much sex for me. It's too much for me. It was too much. I wasn't prepared. I needed to be prepared. Yeah,

Nora McInerny 45:33

I really wanted this to be just purely essays about the Cheesecake Factory, Victoria's Secret. Even I would have taken like, you could have gone store by store through a 2003 mall and come up with just like everything that you needed. That's

Traci Thomas 45:50

actually a great idea, because you could also do like, the music that's playing the food in the mall, like the whole thing

Nora McInerny 45:55

in Auntie Annie's Okay,

Traci Thomas 45:58

okay. Really,

Nora McInerny 46:01

really, wonderfully delicious food. Yeah, I that's what I wanted to, that's what I wanted to. And that's kind of, those are the parts of the chapters that lagged for me, and those are the parts that I skimmed, yeah, too. I was like, those were

Traci Thomas 46:14

the parts I didn't like, Yeah, didn't. And I just, it's not that she didn't write about it Well, it's just that I was not here for that. Like, I did not want, I mean, we picked this book because we were like, Let's do something fun. And then it was like, my abusive husband. I was like, I it was not fun. The essay that I thought she threaded the culture and her memoir The best was the Jersey Shore essay that was my favorite one about her dad and him dying and how they I mean, I got teary eyed at the end of that one, because I think she talked about the Jersey Shore in such a fun way. And I remember that time of like, oh my god, what is this show? I remember I watched the first episode when it aired live, like, with my friend. We were like, we have we saw the previews, and we were like, we have to check this out. This looks too good. But when, when she's like, talking about how her dad would call her and re tell every little bit that Ha, like, I mean, you and I have both lost our dads, but I was so emotional over the rendering of that relationship in a way that I have never really felt about the daughter whose dad died thing in in other writing, like, I think she really tapped on the marriage of culture and like our lives in that essay in a way that she did not quite get to in the later essays.

Nora McInerny 47:35

Yeah, I also thought that was a really beautiful depiction of like, a father daughter relationship, because liking the things or showing interest in the things that your kids are interested in is such a good parenting staple, you know, like, Yeah, you don't have it's a bonus that he does like it, right? He is interested in it. But just like showing that kind of interest in something that's targeted towards your kids, right? Like he was the target demographic for watching jersey. But then again, right, right? Nobody really was. I never been to New Jersey. I did not know anything about this, about this culture. Yeah, I really, I really enjoyed that one too. That was a

Traci Thomas 48:17

good and she asks some really good questions. And that one about like, what is a like? Can low brow still be like a marker of taste? Like, if you like shitty things are considered shitty. Like, is that still defining taste? And also the way that taste bonds us, like, the ways that we like the same things or hate the same things? Like you were saying things are tacky that people you hate, would hate? Yeah, like that is showing how, like, taste bonds us. Like, in your case, it drives a wedge, but it's a clear like demarcator. And I think I just that that essay is what I wanted for the whole book. If she was gonna do the memoir stuff, I really wanted her to, like, draw those lines. But yes, when I got to the end of that episode, I was like, a little bit like, am I am I feeling right now, like I miss my dad so much. I was like, reading it over Thanksgiving too. So I think I was just like, I miss my dad. I want to watch some sports with him, or whatever.

Nora McInerny 49:14

What did your dad like to talk

Traci Thomas 49:15

to you about, sports, sports? Mostly, we were a big sports family always. But my dad also like, talk about, like, political things and like, he'd love to talk about racism, just like me. I think I got that from him. He'd like, do you see how that's racist? Like, I see it. Fuck that guy. But what about your dad? My dad

Nora McInerny 49:35

liked to talk about pop culture. So strangely, we never talked about Jersey Shore, as far as I can remember. But he watched, like, inside edition Access Hollywood

Traci Thomas 49:50

celebrity gossip. Yeah. So

Nora McInerny 49:51

you could call him, and he would be like, did you see Do you see what, what Brittany and Lindsay were doing? They're out of control, you know? And he would just, he would have, like, a strong opinion on it. And I'd be like, yeah. So

Traci Thomas 50:00

now when, like, celebrity gossip comes out, do you always think of him? Are you I do like

Nora McInerny 50:04

rip Dad, you would have really, really loved tick tock. Was he

Traci Thomas 50:09

What? What year did he die? 2014 so he got some Kardashian. He got some

Nora McInerny 50:15

Kardashian. But I really think, like, you know, not enough, enough to have an opinion, but he would have not. He would have not seen this coming. Yes. I mean, like, how do you think

Traci Thomas 50:26

he would have felt about the like, Kanye of it all, the Marilyn Monroe dress feels so scandalous to me. Still.

Nora McInerny 50:31

It is. It is. But, I mean, I honestly think that he would have, now, with all this other sort of stuff, I'm maybe I should preface this by saying I didn't realize how susceptible I am to conspiracy theory thinking and tell all the Diddy stuff came out on Tiktok, and then I went through a rabbit hole where I was like, Oh, and there's, there's Chris Jenner, and there's Chris Jenner's boyfriend, And there's, and then, you know, Connie is on these interviews saying, like, they tried to, they tried to 5150 me, and put me on this much like lithium, and it does seem very nefarious and racist. Okay, was your

Traci Thomas 51:12

like, Was your dad conspiracy theory too, a little bit. My dad was also conspiracy theory too, a little bit. But usually his were about race like, like he was like, Mark Furman, for sure, planted the glove on OJ, like my dad, like was fully like Mark Furman was enemy numero uno in my childhood,

Nora McInerny 51:32

Traci, I found a diary entry about the OJ Simpson trial, where I was your dad.

Traci Thomas 51:38

Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, I

Nora McInerny 51:42

he simply didn't do it. You were

Traci Thomas 51:43

the one white person in America. It was like, you and all the black kids in Minneapolis.

Nora McInerny 51:49

I was like, I just, there's just not enough evidence. Okay, listen,

Traci Thomas 51:52

I'm pretty sure he did it. But I also, after I saw that documentary that like, whatever, I've seen it twice now, yeah, I am never been more convinced that he deserved to be acquitted, even though I've also never been more convinced that he did it like illegal things can be legals did bad. The legals did very bad. Okay, I don't know how he got here, but seriously,

Nora McInerny 52:15

theorists, what would we talk to our dads about? Yeah, I feel like I yeah, I really, really, really loved talking with my dad about celebrity stuff. And I also think that he would have really been tickled by the rise of Taylor Swift, because, oh yeah, yeah, hmm. I think he would have been. I think he would have been shocked. I think he would have been shocked. Oh, just to

Traci Thomas 52:37

see what she because he saw her in the early days, to see how big she's gotten. He would have

Nora McInerny 52:41

been like, but also, I think you have like, we got to end this arrows tour. We got to end that. We got to wrap it up. It's she needs a break. Thank you. I'm worried about her. I'm worried about I was like, I think much work. You know what she needs. She needs her dad. Scott swift to say, like, I love you, and you've done enough, and you're doing a good job, and like, you don't have to do anything else. We already love you and we have enough money. We have enough you did it already. You did massage

Traci Thomas 53:05

and a jacuzzi, Yeah, fucking sleeping pill, honestly,

Nora McInerny 53:11

medical grade coma for

Traci Thomas 53:13

at least as long as the arrows tour, at least half as long. They say. It takes half as long to get over a breakup is the relationship you need. Coma, that's

Nora McInerny 53:23

what I want for her. That's what I want for her. Okay, she's tacky, yeah, I think she is super

tacky, yes, like those friendship bracelets, tacky. You watch Miss Americana. You seen her house in Nashville? No, I've never it's tacky, yeah? And I love it. I was like, Ooh, wallpaper and everything. Yeah, ooh, little, little doodads, knick knacks, themed knick knacks, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I love knickknacks. I love things, okay, Nora's gesticulating to the home. I've just got little piles of things everywhere that I like, that other people wouldn't necessarily like but I had to have them. You know, one essay that I have to pick a bone with. I do not think the Sims are tacky. I don't

either. I was like, that's, I think the Sims were just just gone mall by Mall. We had just gone mall by Mall. Exactly

Traci Thomas 54:15

the Sims. I don't think I needed an essay here it was, that was the one about her abusive husband. I think she was reaching to figure out. To figure out how to get that in, but the Sims was not the right entry point for me. Yeah, I also want to say

Nora McInerny 54:28

that as a as a person who has written many chaotic books that may not give you what the title promises you, I can, I could feel that in this, because I don't know what anything is going to be till I write it, and then I cannot maintain interest in one singular theme or topic for that long. I just can't do it. I can't do it so I could every criticism lobbied against this book also applies to all of my own. It

Unknown Speaker 54:56

really does. I don't think that's quite true. I. I don't I think you stay slightly more on topic. I think, I think we get all of them. But also, God, someday I want to tell the full story of my first book, because it was, oh, whenever you're ready, come back on this podcast. We'll take the hot Goss. We always talk about the title and the cover. But I feel like we already did that. We loved it. We think it's great. I also love the back of the cover. I love the back. I actually wanted more leopard across the whole thing me, like I wanted a little leopard, because I love this little icon, but also like I wanted more. I wanted, I wanted I feel like maybe if she was in a leopard print gown, yes, and I did want a picture of her on the back of the book, and there wasn't one. And I had to, and I had to look, I had to look for her and find her. Did she look like? What you thought she would look like,

Nora McInerny 55:40

No, I actually wasn't sure if like for just from judging on the cover, I was like, oh, maybe Rex King is like, like, drag queen. Oh, interesting. You know, I have no idea. Yeah, yeah. But nope, just a, just a millennial gal. So

Traci Thomas 55:56

for folks who don't know, in 2025 she's got a new book coming. It's called sloppy. Oh, okay, and I don't, I mean, who knows it's it's sloppy and the subtitle is, or doing it all wrong, feels a little more open. Okay, about what it could be about, was it back? But the back says, with rax King's trademark blend of irreverent humor and heartfelt honesty, comes a new collection of personal essays, unpacking bad behavior, sloppy explores sobriety, begrudging self improvement and the habits we cling to with clinched fists. Oh, that I love already, yeah, that I'm excited about. There's an essay called proud alcoholic stock, in which she examines her parents, unwavering dedication to 12 step programs and the texture her family history has lent to her own sobriety. Shoplifting from Brandy Melville is a look at what else shoplifting from Brandy Melville. Those are those. That's what it says on the back cover. Okay. Well,

Nora McInerny 56:50

that sounds great. I'll look forward to receiving that arc in the mail. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 56:53

In July, folks. July. July. Damn. Yeah. Okay. How

Nora McInerny 56:57

far in advance do you read if you get an arc. Because I sometimes I am like, like, July. You want me reading for July? Well,

Traci Thomas 57:05

I think they sent this to me because I told them we were doing tacky. And so they were like, Oh, well, we'll send it to you. But I, if I, if and when I read this, it will probably be July of 2025, same I will read ahead, like I'm reading January right now. And then I recommended a book to some friends of mine, and they both already read it, and so I need to read it so that I can be like, I told them about this book, because if they start posting about it, everyone's gonna be like, Oh, this is their book. I'm like, no,

Nora McInerny 57:30

no, it's your book. It's your book. What book is it? So I can post about it first, and it's called

Traci Thomas 57:34

a hot air by Marcy demarotsky. It's It's so chaotic I don't even really know what it's about. Some billionaire or something is on a hot air balloon, and it crashes at like, a COVID date at someone's backyard. And I think, like, maybe he knows the people. Sounds crazy. It has an awesome cover, and I told my friends about it, and they both started it, and I'm like, What the fuck I invented this book. Granted Darcy or Marcy. I can't remember her name. I think it's Marcy. Marcy has like six books before this. It's all like I invented it's like a debut. But you're welcome, Marcy. Anything else you want to say about this

Nora McInerny 58:16

book before we go? No, we covered it. We covered it. I think we covered on this is two best friends, featuring Traci and Nora. It's actually new podcast, new announcement coming to you live over and now it's just

Traci Thomas 58:29

that was terrible, thanks. Well, terrible thanks for asking is over now. Just Thanks for Thanks for

Nora McInerny 58:35

asking. It's just thanks for asking. So if you want to call and talk to me about literally anything, do that thing, yeah, yeah, yeah. So free. I'm gonna You're not a grief person anymore. No, just a sprinkle of sadness. Just just dabble

Traci Thomas 58:47

glitter, glitter, little glitter, little sad glitter. As they say in my favorite, one of my favorite movies, How to Lose a Guy in 10 days, frost yourself. Oh,

Nora McInerny 58:56

my God, I having worked in advertising. That was such a good depiction of advertising. Truly, I love it. Three guys being like, what's our target? Women, okay, got it. Let's throw a football around. Let's ride a motorcycle. I was like, Fauci. It was very highly, did not realize, like, how, how accurate that would be. And also frost yourself. Is a great tagline. It's a great tagline. Great tagline they did. It's a great

Traci Thomas 59:21

job. It's a perfect that should be your new tagline for things for us, frost yourself with grief. You're welcome. I didn't work in advertising. Can you tell no? Okay, we're gonna go. We're probably gonna keep talking shit, but you guys will have to catch us another time over. For you everyone, thank you for listening. Listen to the end of today's episode to find out what to find out what our January book club pick will be, and we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all so much for listening, and thank you again to Nora McInerney for joining the show. I'd also like to say a thank you to Pete Forrester for helping to make this episode possible. Now it's the time you've all been waiting for. It's our announcement for our January book club pick. We are going to be reading The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley. This debut novel blends science fiction with historical fiction and even a little bit of romance, following a civil servant tasked with overseeing a Victorian naval officer who's pulled from history and dropped into the modern world. It's inventive, surprising, and the perfect way to kick off the new year. We will be discussing this book on Wednesday January 29 and you can tune in on Wednesday January 1 to find out who our book club guest will be for this pick. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. Remember, there are some extra special seasonal perks going on over there. So now is the time to join. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/