Ep. 324 The Psychology of Evil with Akwaeke Emezi

Written By Megan Caballero
Ep. 324 The Psychology of Evil with Akwaeke Emezi.jpg

Author and multimedia artist Akwaeke Emezi joins us with their latest novel Little Rot, set in the underworld of a Nigerian city. We unpack the psychology of evil, and what is interesting to Akwaeke about exploring different genres. We also discuss their moral boundaries when it comes to writing about difficult subjects.

The Stacks Book Club selection for June is It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover. We will discuss the book on June 26th with Melissa Mogollon.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and today the wonderful Akwaeke Emezi joins the podcast. Akwaeke is a multitalented audio visual artist, poet and writer. Their new book Little Rot is their eighth book, a novel set in the corrupt and glittering underworld of a Nigerian city. It's about a party that goes horribly wrong. If you're a listener of The Stacks, you might know this we have talked about Akwaeke's work on the show before, particularly their romance novel You Made a Fool of Death with your Beauty, which was a book club pick for us last year. Today Akwaeke and I talk about their relationship to audience genre and extremely fucked up stories. There are no spoilers on today's episode. Remember our book club pick for June is it ends with us by Colleen Hoover. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, June 26, with author Melissa Mogollon. Quick reminder, everything we talked about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Okay, let's dive in to this conversation with Akwaeke Emezi.

Alright, everybody, I am so excited. Today I am joined by one of my favorite authors, someone who writes all sorts of shit and has a brand new book that is truly an all sorts of shit book, which is I cannot wait for people to read it. I am joined by Akwaeke Emezi. And their new book is called Little Rot. Welcome to The Stacks.

Akwaeke Emezi 3:02

Thank you so much for having me, Traci. I'm really excited to talk about the work.

Traci Thomas 3:06

I'm really excited to talk about the work. Okay, we'll dive in where we always do in about 30 seconds or so can you just tell me and tell folks, not me. I know. But tell folks what Little Rot is about.

Akwaeke Emezi 3:18

You know, I've been telling everyone that this is a book that is just about utter chaos. It starts with a couple that went through a breakup. And then the guy and a couple goes to a sex party that's hosted by his best friend. He makes some choices. Their choices are made and it kind of derails the life of like, five main characters and you know, then it's like 36 hours of just unhinged behavior on everyone's parts.

Traci Thomas 3:48

Yeah, it's definitely people behaving badly. Like I would I when I finished the book, I was like, Okay, that was an amazing time for me. But if you do not like unlikable characters, this is your hell. I personally think not liking unlikable characters is a weird thing. Like I love unlikable people. But as I was reading it, I was like, Ooh, this is not for the faint of heart. I mean, it's an intense, fucked up little story.

Akwaeke Emezi 4:18

It is a very fucked up story. It actually started as a short story 10 years ago. Yeah. 2014. And the short story is now what is like chapter two of the book, which is just like the sex party. Okay, it's kind of that bubble. And I remember after the short story came out, people were just like, This is so fucked up. Yeah, like I'm about to make it even more fucked up by writing an entire book about it.

Traci Thomas 4:43

Did you know 10 years ago that you wanted to turn it into a bigger book or did it sort of just stick with you? And you were like, maybe there's something here I didn't fully explore like, how did you go from short story to full fledged novel?

Akwaeke Emezi 4:57

I definitely knew that I wanted to Turn it into a book. But I just kept getting distracted by all the other books I was writing. Okay, yeah, so I kept trying to have to find these moments in between, you know, publishing and editing and writing other books to work on this one. But I actually sold this book, in my debut year, oh, it was part of a two book deal with the depth of the psychology. And at the time, the publishers didn't know that I already had a draft of the second book ready, but it was such a rough draft. So I felt like, you know, it didn't count them.

Traci Thomas 5:33

What was it about the story that you wanted to dig deeper into? Was it a character? Was it an idea? Was it just like, the sex party itself? Like, what was it that you were like, I got to go with this.

Akwaeke Emezi 5:46

I think it was the corruption. You know, like, I feel that a lot of my books, a lot of my other books are either spiritual, in a sense, or for my young adult novels, they have this idea about hope, and revolution. And I wanted to write something that was just dark, full stop, like, I'm very interested in I think, the psychology of evil. And the way that people think they're immune to it, the way they think that, you know, they can't be corrupted. And I wanted to see what it looks like, if you follow them through the process of their corruption.

Traci Thomas 6:32

Yeah. The book has a lot of sex has a lot of violence. It has a lot of corruption. Do you worry about that sort of stuff? Do you care that people might feel like turned off? From the bigger I guess, like, not message because it's not this is not really like a message you book? I don't think that you're really a message you writer, I think you have messages. But I don't feel like you're like, I'm gonna write this message. Like, do you worry that sometimes like, the triggers, and all of that stuff gets in the way of people's ability to like, see what you're doing? Or do you? Or do you feel more like I'm writing to the people who like the fact option?

Akwaeke Emezi 7:13

You know, I think I'm writing the world as it is. And my books always have a lot of contents warnings. I'm deliberately not one of those authors who actually adds the content warning Yeah, to the book, mostly because there would be too many. And that's what I named my poetry collection. It's called contents warning everything because when my debut freshwater came out, which is autobiographical, I would look at, you know, the Goodreads reviews, and people would be like, content warnings, and it would be like a paragraph of just fucked up shit. And I took it a little personally, because I was like, damn, like,

Traci Thomas 7:54

that's my life.

Akwaeke Emezi 7:55

Yeah, I can't opt out of it. And so yeah, I think at this at this point in my career, I'm used to, at least for the violence, I'm used to that, people's reaction to that four to six. What I found is interesting, and I found this out from writing romance, is that people think, well, not people, some readers think that if you write explicit sex scenes, you're a bad writer. Oh, like there's no, I think it has to do with the way that people look down on romance as a genre. And the minute you start writing explicit sex scenes, people are like, Oh, my goodness, you're writing erotica, or you're writing Wattpad fiction is one kind of accusations about that. I think this this view of like, a certain kind of sex scene as not being literary. You know, being more genre or not being as highbrow.

Traci Thomas 8:53

Yeah, that I do know. That I know, I know, everybody looks down on romance. We actually we did your book for book club. And we talked a lot about that. About like, what is romance and blah, blah, blah. One of the things that I'm interested in about your work is that you've written so many genres, like you've written for so many different types of audiences. I think that you always right, I've read I've read four of your books. So that's what half about, that's about half I'm about I'm somewhere in the middle in the middle, working my way through. But I think you always write literary like, I think that like whatever that means, is always sort of in the center of your work, but that you really like play and flirt and dive into genre and audience obviously like why a is a different thing than a romance then, you know, your essay collection that was a meme memoir in essays like so I'm wondering for you. Is that something you always wanted to do? Did you always want to write in these different words because this book is sort of thriller. It's sort but it's I would never describe it as a thriller, but I'm like, I have to use a word to describe it. I was calling it kind of like dark literary fiction slash thriller like-

Akwaeke Emezi 10:05

But the publishers have been using the word Noir.

Traci Thomas 10:08

Okay, sure. I never know what that word means. I have to mean either. I don't know what Noir is. But anyways, like is, is playing with genre? Is that a thing that is interesting to you? Or do you just have the story and you're like, this story has to be told this way and it happens to be new.

Akwaeke Emezi 10:31

Um, you know, I'm definitely a genre bunny. I think part of it is because of who I am as a reader. I grew up reading everything, honestly, you know, like, my, my dad went to medical school in what was the USSR at the time. So he brought back a lot of like Russian literature. And my parents would bring me these books from London, a lot of Enid Blyton, and you know, you're a kid, you read fantasy, we would read, you know, African literary fiction, it was, it was a lot of things. But when I started writing, I actually meant to be a fantasy writer. Oh, I was meant to be a speculative fiction writer. But at the time, there were very few West African writers working in speculative fiction, it was pretty much just mediocre. Awful, right. And I knew that as a baby writer, my intuition was like, Look, if you start in this genre, you're never going to get out of it. You're never going to use anything more than a speculative fiction writer. So I was like, Well, what is the most prestigious and yeah, quotes genre that you could write in? Like, if you wanted to drop in from the top? Which genre would you started? And it was literary fiction. So I started there. Because I was like, if you can establish yourself in what the industry considers the most prestigious genre, it will give you a certain freedom to do whatever you want, because you've already proven yourself. Yeah, and the most difficult we can hear all the quotes-

Traci Thomas 12:11

Yes, so many air quotes people, you can hear it, we can hear it, we can hear it, we know that voice in quotes.

Akwaeke Emezi 12:19

So I started with literary fiction. And then I started writing YA because I was broke. And away publisher had offered to commission a book and I was like, You know what, I need money. Sure. And I wrote poetry because poetry editor had approached me and asked me to write a poetry collection, but I had actually been a poet before I was a fiction writer. So all these other genres just kind of you know popped in and I think part of it is when I because I debuted with a book that was as experimental as freshwater. It became necessary to like challenge myself with each new book I had to play around with form the death of avec RG have a lot of like murder mystery elements to it. And I could just keep writing like, regular literary fiction over and over, but I would get so bored.

Traci Thomas 13:13

Interesting. Do you feel like one of the genres has been more or less like fun for you as a writer, or more, more or less enjoyable, maybe is a better word.

Akwaeke Emezi 13:24

Um, fantasy and romance, you know, literary the most enjoyable. For sure. literary fiction is cathartic. It's a lot of things. It's not fun, at least not for me. I don't find it remotely fun. But I've processed a lot of things and explored a lot of things in my literary fiction. But I think for me, romance. I've been reading romance since I was in high school, like we smuggle Harlequin and meals and balloons novels, like into the classroom because they were absolutely banned. And I'm working on like this epic eight book fantasy series that I've been working on since I was 14.

Traci Thomas 14:08

Oh my gosh, you're still working on it. Any clue when you'll be done? Do you have like a vision of that? Or is it still?

Akwaeke Emezi 14:15

No, because in true unhinged fashion, I decided that I had to finish writing all eight books before I put any out on submission.

Traci Thomas 14:24

So you're not going to do the like what's Game of Thrones guy who's got like four books he like still owes people I don't read those. I don't know. But I know. I know. Those Games of Thrones. People are not happy.

Akwaeke Emezi 14:34

We're never getting those books. Just understand that we're never getting those books.

Traci Thomas 14:40

Okay, and in your eight book series, how far are you like, am I looking at like 10 years from now? Like, are you like at book three? Or are you I believe it like seven and it's coming?

Akwaeke Emezi 14:49

I'm writing multiple books at the same time.

Traci Thomas 14:51

Okay. Yes, this is true, unhinged mashup. I love this. Oh my god.

Akwaeke Emezi 14:57

I'm a Gemini.

Traci Thomas 14:59

This makes sense. Okay, I can't handle it. I'm like getting overwhelmed, just like hearing you say that out loud. But it's sort of incredible. So you're basically working on this huge giant, like 8000 piece, piece of work, and then you'll break it out and like-

Akwaeke Emezi 15:15

I mean, well, technically, I'm not working on it right now because I have two books coming out next year. I have another romance that's under contract. And then I got distracted by another fantasy. My to-write book list is about 15 books deep.

Traci Thomas 15:34

I have a to-read book list, which is a lot of books. But I can barely have like a to-write an Instagram post list, let alone a to write book list. Oh, my gosh. Okay, wait, we're getting more romance. I'm so excited. But I want to come back to that. Okay, I want to stick on genre for slightly longer, because I do want to know, about, you know, I've talked to so many writers and they all sort of have a different relationship to how stories and books come to them. I know with you made a fool of death with beauty. You said that that came to you in a dream those people came to you in a dream for this book? Did you know it was gonna be this thriller? Dark noir thing? Or did the characters come with you? And you had to find a place for them? Like how I guess how concerned are you with the constraints of genre? When you're doing these type, like when you're doing books that sort of flow in genre?

Akwaeke Emezi 16:23

I really follow the characters. You know, I'm not a writer who outlines I try it that once it spoils the writing for me, okay, then I know what's happening. And then I don't want to write it's anymore.

Traci Thomas 16:37

Okay. So you like to write and see what they do.

Akwaeke Emezi 16:41

Exactly, half the time. I have no idea. I'm just like, Wow, you guys decided to do that? Choices!

Traci Thomas 16:48

This is like a such a theme on the show. Anytime a writer says this to me. I'm like, I don't it does not compute in my brain. Because what does that mean for you? You sit down on a Tuesday afternoon to write a chapter of a book that you don't know what's going to happen and you just like, go like, Okay, John walks into a bar. And then like, do you close your eyes and envision it and then write out what you see? Or do you just keep writing where it's like, John walks into a bar and sees a dog? Dog looks very hot. Like is that like Mad Libs? Or, like, there's gotta be something guiding you or what is that?

Akwaeke Emezi 17:27

It's, I think, an exercise in imagination. So when I was a child, my sister and I had a very, very elaborate world with our Barbie dolls.

Traci Thomas 17:40

Okay, this I can relate to.

Akwaeke Emezi 17:43

It was called Barbie land. Very original. And it had recurring characters. Okay, it was like we were playing out a telenovela. Okay, nowadays, I guess you would call this like RPGs role playing games?

Traci Thomas 18:01

Oh, okay. Like a like a video game or whatever.

Akwaeke Emezi 18:03

Like Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, I don't have any of those. But someone has told me oh, this is what you guys were doing. And then when we got older, our brother banned us from playing with our dolls. Because of the worst. Exactly. And so we would go to bed early. And we would like scurry away with snacks in our beds, we shared a room. And we would just tell each other stories. And that's what we called it. We were like, Hey, do you want to go toe to toe stories? And it was the same cast of characters for over a decade. Plots progressing? And it was like, Oh, yes, this one is a child murderer who feels you know, repentance. And he goes and weeps at the graves of the hill. I love a mermaid princess. And we would just spin it out and I could see it in my head. So when I moved to the states for college, I was 16. It was my first time ever been with my family. And I couldn't do that anymore at my sister. So I would lie in bed. And I would just tell myself the stories before so lonely God, that sounds tragic.

Traci Thomas 19:05

No, I love that. This is the first time that writing without a plan has made sense to me. I sort of I'm like, Okay, I understand. So you just have envisioned to these people, you find the people and then you let them take you on on the journey.

Akwaeke Emezi 19:20

Yes. And I can see it all in my head. As as if it's a movie. You know, how they had that thing of some people have an internal monologue? Yes, I don't, I only see things in pictures. So for me, the writing is easy, because I'm watching a movie in my head. And then I'm just transcribing it down. And I can like pause the characters in the movie. And next time I come back to the project. It's like hitting play and it's like, Okay, so where do you go now? Wow, you're going there? And then I just type it out.

Traci Thomas 19:54

Okay, so with this button that is very dark and twisty. Very fucked up. I think I've mentioned that before. Do you ever feel like, I'm like, do you ever stop your imagination and say, No, we literally can't go there? Like, it's too much like it's like, like how I guess the question really is, is how much is audience in your mind as you're transcribing these stories? Or does that not come into play maybe to later in your process?

Akwaeke Emezi 20:22

I don't think my audience comes into play until my editors forced me. You know, I think with this book, I knew that it was going to be frantic. It's obviously based on the city of Lagos in Nigeria, but I didn't want to actually base it in Lagos, because I'm not from Lagos, and people get real person that could see about accuracy. So I was like, Oh, it's a fictional city. That's what I do at all my books will scan it. I'm just like, it's a fictional city, so you can get at me, leave me alone. That is not the street name. I'm like, I made it up. Yeah. And I spent quite a bit of time in in Lagos. And it's quite violence, you know. And so I really wanted to have that frantic nature of people who are being hemmed in by the violence. And they're just kind of being squished by it and, you know, trying desperately to find an exit. And it just keeps squishing them more and more. And I don't think that I censor myself in a way of like, oh, that's going too far. I do have like rough drafts of other books that I would not publish, because something about the narrative does not align with, you know, my principles, like, there are certain lines that I won't cross, but in this one, this wasn't one of them. This was like, let's see how fucked up it can get. Yeah, this is what this is what it's like, you know, when I wrote the short story version of it, people were reaching out to me, and they were like, Yeah, this is like Legos. And then they were telling me, all these six party stories, I've never been to a sex party.

Traci Thomas 22:09

Me neither! I feel like we're missing out. I feel like, I need to go.

Akwaeke Emezi 22:13

Someone told me about how his boss had taken him to like a happy hour, he worked in a bank. So come to a happy hour after work. And so there were two drinks, and then the lights dim, and everyone in the lounge just starts taking off their clothes. And his boss is like, yeah, don't act like a small boy, don't act like a kid, you know, like, you know what you came here for?

Traci Thomas 22:39

What did your friend do?

Akwaeke Emezi 22:41

I think try to leave.

Traci Thomas 22:43

They weren't about it. They were like, No, I'm not trying to throw down tonight with my boss. Okay, I do want to talk about the morality portion of it. Because I don't subscribe to the belief that what a writer writes is what a writer as a human feels like that the artist can be exploring things that they think are reprehensible, or that they could be exporting things that they think are wonderful, but in real life is super far from who they are and what they believe in. So I'm wondering, you mentioned like, you have things that you wouldn't put out in the world because they cross a line morally for you. How does that manifest? Like, how are you thinking about that? You just know, in your heart, like, can't do that, or like, because this book has some pretty fucked up, again, gonna use that word. I think that's the genre, the genre is fucked up shit. But like, you know, I don't want to spoil anything. But there are some, plenty of really, you know, gross, morally gross things, which I think is sort of the center of this book. But how how do you deal with putting something like this out into the world?

Akwaeke Emezi 23:46

You know, I think with the other books that I mentioned, or manuscripts, rather, the line that I found that I hit there was specifically in writing romance, they were all it was all like, in a romance context, where there were certain things that I just refused to write a sexy, got it? You know, so like, BDSM that would actually be abuse, or like a lack of consents. Got it? Oh, like, I'm like, I'm not going to write that as sexy. I see. Because it's not and these were drafts that I had written like, maybe over a decade ago, I was kind of like playing around with like, how fucked up could a romance story gets and then looking back, I'm like, too fucked up too fucked up.

Traci Thomas 24:33

Yeah, I found the line, the line.

Akwaeke Emezi 24:36

Cool. And, you know, the book that I actually get this question the most about is the death of the back oggi because this first cousin incest in that book, and people are like, Well, why did you put incest there? Someone asked me on Tik Tok the other day, why are you promoting incest? And I was like, this is a wonderful question. Let's talk about it. Writing about something is not the same as promoting it. But also I wrote about it because it happens. You know, there are several cultures in which first cousins get married. My grandparents on my mom's side are related. You know, and also I had written the death of avec oggi because there had been a conversation on Twitter, within the Nigerian community, about first cousins being like, the people that they would experiment with each other as teenagers, because there were all these family holidays where everyone would gather. And so after I wrote to them, a bunch of people wrote to me, and some were like, thank you for talking about this, because I felt so ashamed that this had happened in my family, and people had such visceral, repulsive, repulsed reactions to it. Someone commented on the tick tock, I mean, and they were like, I come from a culture where first cousins are encouraged to marry. And I can't talk about it in public, because people have such a knee jerk reaction to it. And so my answer was, uh, you know, I write about these things, because they happen. And the example I always give to kind of help people parse it out, is Toni Morrison seminar that I was in where we read all her work. And in Song of Solomon, I believe there's a pedophile character, who's just in the community, and everyone knows he's a pedophile, and no one does anything. And so when we were reading that book, and seminar, one of the other students was like, Wait, what are we supposed to think about this? What does Morrison wants us to think about this, you know, the community's not doing anything? You know, is she saying that people like this should be accepted. And the professor smiled, and she said, Morrison is just showing you something. And it is your job to figure out how you feel about it, and what you think about it. And that's, I think, a really good way of describing what I do with my work is I am just showing the reader something. And it's the leaders job to figure out, you know, how they feel about it.

Traci Thomas 27:09

Yeah, I love that. And I think that's so spot on, especially for this book, right, especially for a little rock because you are showing us a lot of some things. You've mentioned a few times like seeing Goodreads reviews, or like connecting with readers on Tik Tok or whatever. And I'm so curious about this with you specifically. Because I think that you are one of our most polarizing authors right now. Like I think, as I say that they're smiling very broadly. So I want people to know, that is a compliment. And I do sort of mean it as one, I guess, actually mean it with no judgment. I don't think that being polarizing is good or bad, inherently. But I want to know how you feel about that. And how that if at all plays into your work? Are you writing and being like, I'm gonna fuck with people right here. Like, I read like you're working on another romance. And I know you've read all the things people said, about you made a fool of death with your beauty or a lot of the things I know that that feedback got to you. I've heard you talk about that before. But are you thinking with this next book, like, Oh, y'all didn't like that? Well, hold on. Let me just do my imagine something over here type type type? Or are you trapped? Like, I don't, I guess, are you trying to fuck with people? Or no?

Akwaeke Emezi 28:28

No, no, I'm not one of those people who's motivated by spite.

Traci Thomas 28:32

I am. So I was hoping you were gonna say yes, hello, I'm so petty.

Akwaeke Emezi 28:37

I mean, I'm not saying I'm not petty isn't why I would write stuff. I think for me, I really enjoy when people have strong reactions to the work. But that's because I know it has nothing to do the work. And it has nothing to do with the actual quality of the work. It has everything to do with the reader, and where the reader is coming from, you know, and I, I read Goodreads reviews, only pre publication, because it shows me what readers are thinking about a book. And that's a blind spot I have, right because I will never be able to approach my books as a reader. Sure. It's just impossible. So it's strategic. When I read those pre public views, I'm like, Oh, this is where people are going with it. And I know that okay, when I'm doing the rollout, I'm going to need to counteract this point, I'm going to need to address this point. And I can steer the conversation the way I wanted, because I have free market research. With with little rods, for example. People are really pointing out the content warnings. And I'm like, that's fair. Yeah, absolutely fair. People are like This is fucked up. This is violence. And I'm like, Yeah, okay. We're all on the same page. It's fucked up. You know, some people really, really hate it and think it's a bad book. And I'm like, at this point, you know, this is book eight. In my career, I think there is. I think there is a bit of pushback, because the idea that someone could write so many books in a short amount of time, and have them all be bangers Yeah. Just irritates the shit out of some Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, no, no, no, you can't be this good. And so many books, I'm going to dunk on you. And I'm like, can dunk away?

Traci Thomas 30:34

Yeah, but I've got 15 books on my to-write BR Whatever, to be written books.

Akwaeke Emezi 30:40

I think you know, like you said, with with full of death, it was extremely polarizing. And I, I've learned how to foster space for these conversations to happen on social media, while still acknowledging that I'm the author. And I don't want to overtly pass judgments on readers for the reaction that they're having to the work, even though I have very strong opinions about it. You know, I'm like, Oh, if you think if you're like a team this year, for example, I'm concerned about you.

Traci Thomas 31:16

I know those people, those people exist. I don't know those people.

Akwaeke Emezi 31:19

I'm worried about them. Because I'm like, you think that his behavior is okay, what, what does that tell me about you? What does that tell me about what behavior you think is acceptable in your romantic life, which is violence? You know, I get worried, honestly. But I think one of my favorites, reactions was someone who said that she hated fi at first, until she realized that she was jealous. Jealous of Fe jealous, jealous of her freedom, jealous of the choices she made, you know, and I love when people have that's the point of the work, right? Yes. To make you see yourself better. Yeah, it's showing you a thing. And sometimes you see yourself in the thing.

Traci Thomas 32:00

That's so interesting, because so much of what the conversation. So we do, we do an episode about the book. But then I also with my Patreon community, we do like a meet up where there's like, 40 people, and we like talk about the book. And on the episode, we didn't spend as much time on this topic, because my guest also wasn't like a huge romance reader. So we sort of were both reading it, like, let's read a romance and like, have fun. And we both were like, This is great. But a lot of people in my community are huge romance readers. And the big thing that I heard from so many of them is like, well, this isn't a true romance because XYZ and I was like, No, guys, you told me, these are the rules of romance. And I feel that this does those things. And there was, you know, a lot of back and forth. But to me, in the year 2023 or 2024, we went in 2003. But now, you know talking to you. I don't think that the conventions of genre, that bending those things, but still staying within the parameters is bad. Like, I think that's fun. You sort of, you know, you push the line of like, is it really the central love story? Is it not like, what's the deal here, and try not to spoil for people who didn't read it, but like, I feel that, to me, that's exciting. That brought me into the genre in a way that if it had been as tight to the rules of the genre, sometimes I get a little bored, you know, like I really didn't know who she was going to end up with. I really didn't know what was gonna happen. And this is actually just reminding me I have to ask you because you said you're writing romance is the next one about joy.

Akwaeke Emezi 33:30

Oh, okay. So it's not.

Traci Thomas 33:33

Oh, okay. We want joy. We all want joy. Okay. It's huge.

Akwaeke Emezi 33:36

You can take that up with the publisher who declined the Joy sequel.

Traci Thomas 33:40

Okay, well, look, I can start a publisher. We can do this tomorrow. Listen, let me be your agent for one book. We will get you Joy. We need Joy!

Akwaeke Emezi 33:52

I know. I know. And I think you know, it's absolutely a romance there's only one hard and fast rule for the romance genre. And that is that it needs to have a happily ever after. Or happily for now. So if that has a happily ever after or happily for now, whichever one you want to apply it to.

Traci Thomas 34:11

I just some people don't like that the the ending you chose is what it really is. They just don't they don't like it. Like they wanted it to end in a different way. But like an end in a different way. It's literally a Roman, I know, end up together. I'm with you. That's what I said. I'm like, I feel like we got what we're supposed to get. But I think I think to the point of like the person who didn't like Fe because they were jealous. I think that's similar with this is like people do get the happy ever after happy for now, but they just don't like it because they don't like the relationship like they're not It's not satisfying to them. But that's not your job. Your job isn't to make it satisfying to reader a or b Your job is to hit happily ever after.

Akwaeke Emezi 34:49

You know and I think it was it was very satisfying to a lot of other readers. But for the people who didn't like Fe I think there's something in They're about what you were saying earlier about, like, you know unlikable characters. Yeah. And I think it's hard for people to meet an unlikable character in a romance novel, because she faces really no repercussions for her behavior. Yeah. And I think that bothers people, you know, is that she doesn't get punished for what she did. She gets she wins. You know, she does something that even she admits, is mucked up. You know, like, she apologizes for it. She admits it's fucked up and she still wins and people didn't want to see her win.

Traci Thomas 35:36

Yeah, I agree. I loved it. I just, I had such a good time. It was such a good time for me. I just had such a good time. But okay, this is the this is like the most minut little tiny thing, but what's up with you and mangoes weighed in this book? or have there been mother's bago okay, there's a mango foam, aggressive mango foam and yet full of deaths with your beauty. But in this book, there's also some pre-sexy time mango moment. I was only hyper aware of it because we spent so much time in Book Club talking about mango pulp. Every time someone mentions you made a fool of death with your beauty and our Discord someone puts a mango emoji up like it's like the official emoji of the book. But this book I was like reading reading and I think mangoes are in it two or three times. But one there's one moment where mangoes are in it like pre sexy time.

Akwaeke Emezi 36:26

Do you know I honestly did not even notice that. Okay, this is this has happened with other books. Like I was doing an event with Jason Reynolds for death of event ology. And Jason was like, you know, there's a shirts, there's a T shirts that you mentioned that has butterflies on it and the word Philippines, and you also have that same T shirts in freshwater. And I was like, Oh my God, because that's an actual t shirt. And I did not realize I had put it into books. And I think the mango thing falls into that. This is tropical. This is like it's popping up everywhere.

Traci Thomas 37:03

Okay, yeah, cuz it's there. And I was like mangoes, okay, take a close reading. Okay, speaking of things that show up everywhere. The title of the book is little rot. And the word rot and rotten are in the book, I want to say is five or six times. And I think every time they're used differently, so like as an adjective, or a verb or a noun or whatever. I'm curious about that word. I'm curious about why you wanted to title the book, little rot, just anything about rot.

Akwaeke Emezi 37:34

I think it's about that corruption, right. And I wanted it to be something that had a gradual progression. No, which is how rot works is just you just need a little touch of it. And it just grows and grows. And it's sneaky and it infiltrates and it contaminates and, and I think that was the path that I was following, you know, with the characters is how one little decision would suddenly bloom like mold into something into something much bigger that they can no longer control.

Traci Thomas 38:11

I love bloom like mold because you think of bloom like flower, but yes, also mold. Also, Rod, Rod rod, how do you name your characters?

Akwaeke Emezi 38:20

Oh, it's one of my favorite parts. I usually flip through a bunch of names. It's like sticking a bunch of names to them and seeing which one fits. So it's like you hold up the name. That doesn't sound right for you. You know, so much of my process is intuitive. Okay. It's one of the reasons I refuse to teach. Because I'm like, I don't know how to teach you this. I don't,

Traci Thomas 38:48

You gotta be a kid. You gotta get Barbies with and have a sister and also a brother who shuts it down and then that's where you start.

Akwaeke Emezi 38:56

And if you don't have that, I don't know

Traci Thomas 38:58

I can't do it. Sorry, not there's no possible path forward. What about as far as like, you know, you've got this to be written list. Are there any genres? Or I guess genres that you want to tackle next that you haven't done or anything that you're like, I got to revisit this. I think I could do it better this time.

Akwaeke Emezi 39:22

Oh, I never think about revisiting, you know, once the book is done, oh, no,

Traci Thomas 39:26

sorry, not the book, the genre genre. I don't think you should revisit your books. I think they're very good. No, no, no, I would never be like you need to revisit this.

Akwaeke Emezi 39:37

No, you know, I think I like to play around in the genres. And once I feel that, I've done everything I wanted to do then I you know, I relocates with literary fiction. I don't know if I would write literary fiction again after a little loss. You know, there might be a short story collection down the line, a lot of it would probably be speculative fiction, as well. But I feel like I've done a lot of what I wanted to do in that genre. In why I have a YA fantasy that's coming out next year. That's not magical realism like pets and wita. It's like proper magic difference World Fantasy. And, and I don't know, if I would play around in that genre more, I think my my sights are set on adults fantasy, because that's because I got eight books to get through. And that has been, you know, my, my one true love. Since I was a child, you know, it's like I've been working up to being in that genre. That is the genre that I read, predominantly, I read more fantasy than I do romance than I do any other kind of a fiction. And it's my happy place. And, yeah, I'm kind of setting my sights on that. And it's, it's like having a delicious little secrets. Because I get to look at my books. And I get to read through, you know, the partial manuscripts. Yeah. And I think I know, I'm doing a good job, when I'm excited to read the work, because it feels like I get to be a reader falling into this world.

Traci Thomas 41:34

I love that I don't really read at all, adult fantasy, but I will, when you when you write your book? I will. I'll try it. I'll go with you anywhere. I'll come with you anywhere. I'll, I'll give you one. I'm not committing to eight, though, I gotta be honest, if it's not working, I can't commit to eight, but it's fine. It's fine. I'll make sure to seduce you with the first one. Yes, if the first one holds, I will come back like I am coming back for whatever the next romance is. Even if it's not about joy, I will be there. I will be there. Okay, one more question specifically about little rotten, then I want to talk a little bit more about your process. Is there anything in Is there anything that's not in Little Rot that you wish was? Or could have been?

Akwaeke Emezi 42:18

No, I'm pretty happy with what I got in there. You know, I feel like it's, it hit all the notes I wanted to hit I, I was really, really proud of the structure. Because it was a very difficult structure. So for those who haven't read it, yet, it happens over the span of 36 hours. And it's close to five different characters. Yeah, so it switches between them, and I had to start timestamping the scenes, because otherwise, I would just completely lose my place. And so it was a difficult book to craft wise, you know, to be able to do that and still have it flow without losing any of the momentum maintaining the pace. And I think, you know, my only the only thing I was slightly worried about was whether whether it was too dark, you know, I was like, No, there's, there's no, there's no happy moral. At the end of the day, there's no hope. There's it's just, but then I was like that is the point, right. And that's why I chose the epigraph that we call it. Yes, little thing at the beginning, which is a Toni Morrison quote, and it says, I'm just trying to look at something without blinking to see what it is like, or it could have been like, and how that has something to do with the way we live now. And I was like, that's just the point of the book, right, is just to look at this thing. Without blinking.

Traci Thomas 43:53

Yeah. Okay, this is a practical question, because you said that you don't outline, but this book, sort of, I feel like how could you do it without some sort, you must have had something that was like, Okay, this is where these characters are at 5pm on Friday, or like 5pm on Saturday, this is where these characters are at 5pm on Saturday, or no, you didn't have any documentation?

Akwaeke Emezi 44:16

I just doubled back a lot. So I write in Scrivener. And the reason why I love Scrivener, as a writing thing is that you can see all your chapters listed on the side. So you can toggle between chapters really fast. So I'd be writing something and I'd have to go back and consultants again and just be like, Wait, where were they? It was it was tedious, it probably would have been easier to structure it now that you know that I think about it some delay, no timeline, timeline would have helped but I just did it the hard way. I just went back and forth back and forth 1000 times.

Traci Thomas 44:50

Okay. And aside from Scrivener, how do you write where are you? How often how many hours a day music or no music, snacks and beverages rituals, set the scene.

Akwaeke Emezi 45:00

I always write at home, because I don't like people. I don't like being outdoors. And also my pajamas are at home. And all my snacks are at home. And my little kitty cat is at home. And I actually can't write a lot during the day because my cat hates when I write.

Traci Thomas 45:19

A jealous lover.

Akwaeke Emezi 45:21

He really is. He believes that my arms are only meant for cuddling him. So his ideal scenario is like, Oh, I'm going to lie on your lap while you work is I'm going to put my head on your dominant arm. So yeah, I can't use it. So I can only write when he's in bed. And so that limits these days, my writing too late at night or early in the morning. Yeah, if I can trick him into doing something else or falling asleep physically away from me, then that helps. I don't play any music. Sometimes I'll have like little bits of chocolates to nibble on for a little sugar rush. And I don't write for many hours because a lot of my work is imagination work that I don't actually need to be in front of a computer to do so I do a lot of that work throughout the day while I'm on the train. God while I'm just lying in bed, you know, things like that.

Traci Thomas 46:23

So your characters and your stories are sort of moving in your current delay and as you're as you're living?

Akwaeke Emezi 46:29

Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, Oh, where did I leave them? What do I need to do next?

Traci Thomas 46:33

Do you take notes on them?

Akwaeke Emezi 46:35

I do I do. I do have to take notes and Scrivener has a lovely This is sounds like a Scrivener ad.

Traci Thomas 46:41

Not sponsored not but if they want to sponsor the podcast like please come over, we're avail.

Akwaeke Emezi 46:49

I have like little notes sections. And this is something that I you know, I definitely had to do with Little Rot to kind of remember who was who, where they first met, things like that. But something that I'm having to very much do with the eighth book fantasy series. That book, so much of it is just data gathering, and research and figuring out the names and I'm writing all the books at once in one Scrivener documents because they depend on each other, right? So if I change something in book four, I'm going to need to go back to book one and fix the continuity all the way through.

Traci Thomas 47:29

Wow. You've mentioned snacks now twice, but all you've told us is small nibbles of chocolate. So when you're not writing like what are your go to snacks. What are you snacking on?

Akwaeke Emezi 47:40

You know, it depends on the season. Okay? If it's summer time, I really like guavas. Okay. And get them in Chinatown. If it's the winter, I'm super into like the sumo oranges.

Traci Thomas 47:56

Yes, they're delicious. It's a perfect fruit. It's a perfect fruit.

Akwaeke Emezi 48:01

It's a perfect fruit. And I like peel off all the little. Yeah, like I'm brain. Yeah, the little veins or whatever. Yeah. And it's like you just have It's like eating solid juice, which is just kind of amazing. And then I, I can't eat a lot of sweet things because I'm in some way allergic to them. Or it's like it's either sugar intolerance or lactose intolerant. Either way, it makes me very sad about it. But there is this brand of chocolate called Hawaiian host. Okay. And they are chocolate does not give me any reactions. Great. So I just order directly from them. And I eat a lot of like little meals throughout the day. Like I have to eat like two eggs. Every single day. I go through about a dozen eggs a week.

Traci Thomas 48:50

Wow. And do you still live in New Orleans?

Akwaeke Emezi 48:54

I'm between New Orleans and New York mostly to avoid hurricane season because I got stranded during Hurricane Ida in New Orleans. And after all that trauma. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna be somewhere else.

Traci Thomas 49:06

Yeah, I'm gonna avoid this. Um, I heard you say that you knew that you wanted to be a writer from when you were like very young and you had a little book where you the author's thing was like, they're a great writer of many books, like when you were seven like the like, what do they call that? The little author's bio at the end of the book you'd written? But I also heard you say that you were went to vet school. You studied like public policy. Do you have any regrets about being a writer? Or do you feel like it was always what you want it to be? And you finally found your way to that.

Akwaeke Emezi 49:41

No regrets about being a writer. You know, I took a lot of detours. I started writing when I started writing books when I was five, because they were like these little picture books and the principal of my school in Nigeria was a black woman from Ohio. Actually, her name was Ivana on Luma. And she was the one who would give me these little, like notebooks. And she's like, fill it up with a story and give it back to me at the end of the week, and I'll give you a blank one. And my love for blank stationery was a lot as a child. Is it still there? It is less. So now because I don't write by hand anymore. Okay. But I still have like, just accumulated cutes journal yet I will probably never write. And I still have some of those, like, little notebooks from when I was seven. And but it wasn't considered, you know, like a viable career path. Yeah, so my dad's a doctor. And I was like, I'll be a doctor, but for animals because I grew up without vets that we have zero access to that. And we had a lot of pets. So I watched a lot of pets die. And it was pretty traumatic. And I was like, I'm going to go work with animals. And then I failed out of vet school. I was at Tufts. And I was doing terribly. And I had this wonderful professor who was a crotchety old white man. And he sat me down after I feel his class, like, twice, like, I feel it. And then He tutored me over the summer, and I failed it again. And he sat me down. And he was like, You're too young to be here. Because I was the youngest student that had ever been to like tufts vet school, I was 20 When I started, and it was a problem for them, because they had like alcohol at their events, and they were like, You are under age, we've never had this problem, please don't drink, we will get into trouble. And he was very kind. He said, You know, he gave us himself as an example. He said, I could go to engineering school, and I would absolutely flunk out. Not because I'm not smart, but because my brain just does not work this way. And he was like, your brain does not work this way. And you've tried, but also you are far too young for the amount. He's like, my son is your age. And he's a junior in college. And you're here going into like your second year of med school. It was. It was also very, very bad for my mental health. But he was the first person who had ever given me permission to fail at something. And it saved my life. Probably I was so deeply suicidal at that point. And I dropped out. And then my family was like, well, you still have to get a degree in something. So I randomly decided on international public policy, because I wanted to work with international nonprofits that were providing animal relief, it was still very much about the animal. And then I got into NYU for public policy. And I realized that I hated public policy. And I had no interest in public policy, but I had to finish the degree. And the funny thing is, when I was an undergrad, I had a literature professor who pulled me aside and told me that I needed to change my major to creative writing. And I was 17, 18. At that point, I told that I laughed at his face. I was like, oh, that's ridiculous. So sometimes I like to think that, you know, he saw a book somewhere and he was like they made it!

Traci Thomas 53:00

Oh my gosh, I do remember that teacher? Like their name. Like could you send them a book?

Akwaeke Emezi 53:05

I don't remember his last name. I just remember his face his ponytail. And the fact that his name was Mark, and he was really good at playing cool.

Traci Thomas 53:12

And this is at Tufts?

Akwaeke Emezi 53:13

No, this was at my undergrad, which is a college in Virginia that no longer exists. Due to an embezzlement scandal.

Traci Thomas 53:21

Oh my God, we love Okay, next book. Okay, we're going back to Noir. We're gonna go Mark, Mark and his ponytail at the pool club is going to be like writing novels but also like solving embezzlement crimes. I can't wait. See, you need me. I'm gonna get the joy book sold. We're gonna get the mark book sold. We're gonna find mark to send it to him.

anybody who knows a mark with a ponytail who's got a pool who also taught writing let us know we're gonna get mark the book. What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Akwaeke Emezi 53:53

Oddly rhythm.

Traci Thomas 53:55

Oh, yeah. Because it defies all the rules. It's just there's just a Y just one?

Akwaeke Emezi 54:01

So many consonants.

Traci Thomas 54:04

how many words have multiple H's or whatever? Like not a lot? That's not that one. Oh, really? It doesn't have to ages. Listen, I don't know and you don't know. So Mark at home listening knows what the rest of the market is gonna be like you guys not me doing spelling either me. Oh, I'm okay. We kind of know what's coming next from you. For people who love little rot. What books would you recommend to them that are in conversation with what you've done?

Akwaeke Emezi 54:37

Oh, I have no idea. I think if people are looking for dark fucked up stuff. Yeah. I would say go like work through Helen Amy's books. Like it gets weird. are dark and fucked up. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. But yeah, along the veins of I mean, this is the issue that everyone runs into with my books is we've never been able to find comps. Yeah. You know for it. I think I had one of the my publishers be like they just use my other books. Yes comes at this point and I was like wow, this is amazing to be self referential. It's not like a career goal.

Traci Thomas 55:28

Yeah, they're really I mean, I don't think I've ever read anything like Little Rot before, but I mean, I'm, you know, listen, you don't have to respond to this, but it's got to be a show. We got to get on HBO, we need it. It's so visual. We I need that I need these people on my screen. Fucking and fucking up. That's what I need. Okay, I need it.

Akwaeke Emezi 55:54

I would love to see it as like a feature film. But you know, one thing that I realized in working with the adaptations is that I've never seen anything made by Hollywood that has that is contemporary, and has West African characters set in West Africa. I mean, they'd actually don't even have West African cactus that's in America. Let alone outside of it.

Traci Thomas 56:18

Yeah. Well, someone's got to be the first. Might as well be you.

Akwaeke Emezi 56:24

I know, right? What's that thing Lady Gaga used to say on when she was on that film tour. So she's like, there could be 100 people in the room? And 99 could say no. And all you need is one person to say yes.

Traci Thomas 56:36

Listen, as your agent, we're gonna solve this. It's a package deal. You have to make the movie and publish the Joy book together. One, one thing to satisfy my needs. I would love Oh my gosh, no, we've got it's, it's like, my comp for this book is Crazy Rich Asians. But actually, if they were crazy, and if they were African in Africa, but it's like that level of like, rich nonsense, but the dark side of it, right? Like it's like a big cast of characters. But like, they're not going to a wedding. They are going to a sex party. Like, there's no there's no like, Oh, your mom doesn't like me. No, it's got to do with a priest instead. Okay, just like it's dark.

Akwaeke Emezi 57:23

I thought you're going to say they're not going to a wedding. They're going to hell.

Traci Thomas 57:29

That should be you know how like some romance books have taglines. That's what this book's headline should be. They're not going to a wedding. They are going to hell hell little. Sounds like a horror horror book. Okay, my last question for you is if you can have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Akwaeke Emezi 57:50

Hmm. See? This is a difficult question. Because the way I really do not be thinking about readers.

Traci Thomas 58:01

Okay. Okay.

Akwaeke Emezi 58:03

Yeah I don't have like an ideal reader. You know, like, for me, the measure of success with all the books is that did they make it out there? You know, like, did they make it to the final form? Is it available for people to you know, buy and get from the libraries. And once I hit that, I'm like, Oh, that's a wrap. I everything I could want for it has happened.

Traci Thomas 58:28

Wow. That's very nice. I would say Obama but okay. My answer, even though I don't write books is Obama and Oprah. Those are the two people that are alive, but I want to read my book. All right, everybody. You can get little right now as you're listening to this out in the world. Do you know is the audiobook multiple narrators?

Akwaeke Emezi 58:51

The audiobook is narrated by Chukwudi Iwuji, who was one of the narratives on the Death of avec oggi he won the Audi for that. And the female narrator is a Adepuru Oduwe or do you Who is this amazing Nigerian actor it was in this queer movie Pariah years ago. I'm a big fan. And yeah, multiple narratives. I think they just recorded it last week.

Traci Thomas 59:15

Okay, amazing. I obviously haven't listened to it because we're talking before the book comes out. But for folks at home, listen to what I want to know how it is. I might go back and listen to some anyways. Akwaeke, thank you so much for being here.

Akwaeke Emezi 59:26

Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.

Traci Thomas 59:28

Yes, it was a good time and everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Alright, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Akwaeke Emezi for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Glory Anne Plata for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget The Stacks book club pick for June is it ends with us by Colleen Hoover, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, June 26 with Melissa Mogollon. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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