Ep. 350 The Best Books of 2024 with Greta Johnsen & MJ Franklin

Written By Megan Caballero

It’s time to pick the best books of 2024! Joining me for this year-end celebration are two longtime friends of the show, podcast host Greta Johnsen and MJ Franklin, editor at The New York Times Book Review. In today’s episode, we share our top 10 books of 2024, reflect on the trends that defined this year in reading, and look ahead to the titles we’re most excited for in 2025.

The Stacks Book Club pick for December is Tacky by Rax King. We will discuss the book on December 25th with Nora McInerny returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is time for everyone's favorite episode of the year. It is the best books of 2024 all broken down for you with two incredible guests. I am joined today by Greta Johnsen, who is the former host of nerdette and a longtime friend of this very podcast, as well as MJ Franklin, editor at the New York Times Book Review. These are two iconic book people, and I am so excited to have them with me as we talk about the trends of the year, what we loved, what we hated, and of course, our 10 best books. We're also going to look forward to 2025, and a few titles we cannot wait to read. Remember our book club pick for December is tacky by rax King. I will be back with Nora McInerney to discuss this book on Wednesday, December 25 Yes, Christmas. So be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link, in the show notes, if you love this podcast, if you want more of it, if you want inside access, a readerly community, bonus episodes, monthly virtual book club, meetups, all of that and more, you gotta go join the stacks pack over on Patreon. That's patreon.com/the stacks. You got all those things I listed. You'll get to be part of our mega Reading Challenge, which kicks off January 1. You'll get to vote in our annual reading Awards, the stackies. You'll get access to my book tracker, which I talk about on today's episode. You only get that through the end of the month, so go to patreon.com/the stacks and join to earn those perks. Another perk is that you get a shout out on the show. So thank you so much to Jody zeismer, Karen gomar, nessa robre and AJ wall for joining the stacks pack. Also you can now gift access to the stacks pack by going to patreon.com/the stacks slash gift. This is a great last minute gift. And I even have a little gift card you can print out, wrap up and slide under the tree for the book lover in your life. One more way you can support the show is by subscribing to my newsletter. That is Traci thomas.substack.com it's called unstacked. I give you Bucha takes, I give you lists, Power Rankings, all sorts of good stuff, and you can gift that as well. Go to Traci thomas.substack.com Okay, that's it. Are you guys ready for this time for our best books of 2024 with Greta Johnsen and MJ Franklin.

All right, everybody, it is everyone's favorite episode of the year. Unfortunately, for this podcast, I have to wait till the second to last week of the year to get you all to listen. But here we are. The time has come. It is our best books of the year. Episode, I have brought in two extremely heavy hitters. I have Greta Johnson. You already know her. You all love her. She is formerly the host of the nerd at podcast. She is currently the author of The Greta Graham sub stack that is so popular, she's given you recipes, she's given you book club. She also hosts podcasts about things that aren't books. It's like, I don't even know what those are. I guess there's TV shows that some of you watch.

Greta Johnsen 3:31

Something's in Dune, don't worry about it. Two

Traci Thomas 3:35

little things, but both based on books. So yeah, I've never seen either of those things, but I think some of you have you heard the voice. It's Greta Johnson, welcome back, Greta. Hi

Greta Johnsen 3:47

Traci. I'm so excited to be here. I'm not talking about books enough, so I'm just like, thrilled. I'm giddy to get to be here with y'all today.

Traci Thomas 3:53

I'm so thrilled. Our second guest back for a second year in a row. He is an editor at the New York Times Book Review. Ever heard of it? A small publication that talks about a few books and has zero influence in the culture. He is a friend of the show, a genius, a lovely human, a legend among men. MJ Franklin, one.

MJ Franklin 4:18

Intro, thank you for having me. I had so much fun doing this episode last year, so thank you, number one, for having me back. And then two, can I just say I am huge fans of both? Like, whenever we get together, it's like the most fun time we have talking about books. I was at a book party a few weeks ago, and I spent the entire time talking to various people about how much we love specifically, both of you. We're like, Traci is on top of the world this year. This is her year. We're like, Greta is like, doing everything. How does she have the time? So in addition to just like loving talking about books, I love talking with you and also about you, I'm just I'm just dance. I'm just dancing Stan of both of you,

Traci Thomas 4:56

it's so embarrassing because I feel the same way, and I know people. People at home listening are like, shut up. You guys are so annoying. Stop being friends. Start talking shit. You know what? You can't break this bond. Greta, you linked us together, the three of us together for the first time, when you made us talk about a book that I didn't like that MJ did like about a serial killer, but it was literary and yep, and that was years ago. Notes on an execute

Greta Johnsen 5:22

was notes on an execution. So love that book, same and still love you, Traci, that like the bond was formed and we are, yeah, this is just like so much fun always for the three of us to be together. So thanks for

Traci Thomas 5:34

Traci. We're back. We got we got the band back together, and now we're doing 2024, books. So can you both just quickly introduce yourself to the audience as far as what kind of books you generally are drawn to, so that they have a sense when you name your favorite books, if you're like, Oh, my favorite book is a book about botany, and you're like, Oh, I'm also a boss, like, people might need to know what you look for, what kind of books like really speak to your soul. So Greta, do you want to start there?

Greta Johnsen 6:02

Gosh, yes, this is a good question, and I probably should have thought about that more. But I guess as a reader, so I I don't read the back of the book. I find the synopsis to give away too much. So I am going, I am judging books by covers, and I am going off of blurbs. I think my favorites are literary fiction that are still, like, I'm tempted to use the word Traci, but like, have like, a tastiness. They don't feel like homework. They're yes, they're good, they're fun, they're delicious, they go down easy, but they're still about things. Is like, generally, the sort of book I like. So usually it's plotty. Sometimes it's a little salacious, but those I would say, are, like, my absolute favorites. But beyond that, I mean, I also, like, I'm a big genre reader. I'll do especially sci fi and fantasy. I really love and romance now and then too. So it's like a pretty broad but mostly fiction for the most part. Okay. MJ, how about you?

MJ Franklin 7:01

I am very similar. I am a fiction girl, through and through. That is where my home is. I try to read pretty broadly, though. So I do dabble in non fiction, but like fiction is where I feel most comfortable. And then in fiction, I read all over. I love literary fiction. I want meticulously crafted sentences. I want a strong metaphor. I want a feeling that something is afoot. I don't want just the story, but I like, I want some type of rendering there. I'm using all these pretentious words, but like, that's what I that's what that's what hooks me, not just the story, but like how we get there, how it's told. I do read genre. I dabble at some horror, some romance. I read pretty widely. Sometimes I like quiet books where nothing really happens. You just kind of feel ambiently bad along with the character. Sometimes I love a book with a maximalist plot, but that the overall feeling of fiction, where you feel like something is afoot, is how I would describe myself. I

Traci Thomas 8:06

love that. I love something as afoot. That's the only kind of fiction I like. So similar to you all, I like things afoot. I like things to happen if I'm reading fiction unlike you. MJ, if nothing happens, it's an automatic close goodbye. Never want to talk to you again. Why are you?

Greta Johnsen 8:25

Yeah, I'm closer to that too. Like, oh my god, it's fiction.

Traci Thomas 8:29

I need something, even if it's just the fear of something is gonna happen, that might be enough to sustain me through a book, if it's short. But as you all know, listening, my bread and butter is non fiction. I love non fiction. If you can give me good narrative non fiction, you can become my boyfriend. That is how I started dating Patrick Radden, Keith. He gave me good non fiction, and we've been going steady for years now, okay? And I also I love any sort of non fiction about a government agency or or very wealthy organization who's done a terrible, terrible thing that's really my, my extremely niche love, but also a memoir I can be into. But you all know that. Okay, another question about your year in reading this year is, I don't know how, how much you all track your reading. I'm intense, but approximately how many books have you read up until this point? We've got two weeks left in the year. And then how many of those would you say were 2024? Releases? If you had to guess,

MJ Franklin 9:31

I guess I can start because my easy answer is, I have no clue. We've talked about, I think we talked about this. Oh yeah. The reason is because I like separate my personal reading versus my work reading. But I spend all my time doing work reading, so I also meticulously track work reading. I have a spreadsheet, and I think right now I'm at 51 books for me personally, but it takes a lot for a book to get onto that list. I can read something like four. Work many times. And unless I've read it specifically for me, it doesn't go in there. And Traci, we talked about this last year, and I think

Traci Thomas 10:07

so the 51 is the personal not the work reading, correct?

MJ Franklin 10:10

So that's 51 on top of all my work reading. And

Traci Thomas 10:14

do you have any sense of what the work reading is not about,

MJ Franklin 10:17

not at all, because we're just reading it constantly, constantly, and here's a prime example of why it's so hard to tabulate. Say, I'm trying to choose a book for book club, and I read 75% into four different books, right, right? I will finish the one that we end up doing, right? That makes it onto my list. The other three don't, unless I go back and read them later, but at that point it's like, what Weeks, months afterward? Like, I'm not in that same headspace that doesn't feel like a normal person reading experience. So it doesn't go on my spreadsheet. You

Traci Thomas 10:53

need to take notes next year, because now I'm so curious. I know how many of these like, you need to just make a little spreadsheet where it's like, finished. It? Didn't finish it? Yeah, dabbled, yeah, just because I need to know, I'm just so curious, like, how many books you're reading into, especially because, like, you're a professional reader at an institution, so I'm curious, like, what that looks like for someone of your ilk.

MJ Franklin 11:14

Yeah, I this is a good note, and I definitely will. I've, I've been getting this question enough that I hate not having a good answer, so I will amend my spreadsheet next year. But part of the reason for me of the spreadsheet and why I separate it out is because I'm sure you two get this all the time, like reading for work can sometimes take the pleasure out of reading, and so having a spreadsheet or some type of barrier that says actually you need to focus on you is helpful. So that's why I'm so strict about compartmentalizing, to keep the

Traci Thomas 11:44

joy of reading. Yeah, make a different tab for your work. So in my reading spreadsheet, I have a tab for reason read, and it's a drop down for fun, for work, for the stacks book club, for the Reading Challenge, for whatever. And so that way I can see everything I've read together, but I can also see why I read something. And then there's, like, a little calculation, so I know the percentage blah, blah. That's so interesting,

Greta Johnsen 12:07

though, because ideally it is both for fun and for work, right? So, I mean, isn't that everything is technically

Traci Thomas 12:12

work? Yeah, I think it's different for MJ, I get assigned. I get everything, yeah, everything I read. I get to choose what I'm reading. I don't get assigned anything. And then also everything I read I end up reviewing on my page, right? So it's technically work at some point, right? But I try to go in with like, Why did I pick this up? Did I pick this up because I knew I had to interview the person, which is work, or did I pick it up because I was curious about it, which is fun, yeah. Can

MJ Franklin 12:39

I say one more? I feel like I want to know your answer too. But the other thing I just want to just want to say is about reading as an editor is also tricky, because I am constantly trying to remove myself from the reading process. Because as an assigning editor, it's not necessarily my job to say I love this book. It's my job to look into it and say, Is there something here that someone else can like will dig into. And so even if it's a book that I love and I've given to a reviewer like, I never want to say that out loud to that rubrics, I don't want to influence their feelings about the book. So I don't totally get rid of my own opinion. Like I'm guided by my own taste. But yeah, work reading is reading that is guided by another set of principles than just like, am I into it? Do I like it? And like that shapes, inevitably, how you do the reading? Yeah,

Greta Johnsen 13:28

it's so interesting. It's fascinating. That's wild. Okay,

Traci Thomas 13:32

Greta, how many books, and how do you track if you do and if you did, how many were from this year?

Greta Johnsen 13:39

So I just counted this morning because I had a feeling you were going to ask me. I'm 86 I track them in this little book that I've been using since 2013 so it's just like, listen, listen, listen, oh my gosh,

Traci Thomas 13:54

Greta, take a picture of that so I can post that on social media. So people, because we this is an audio I

Greta Johnsen 13:59

will. It's literally just title and author, and it's by month, but it's pretty cool to be able to, I mean, especially over 10 years now, it's fun to, like, just open it up and, like, I can place myself, like, Oh, I remember the apartment I lived in, or, like, I remember the walk I was on when I was listening to that. It's really lovely. I should count out. The vast majority of my reading these days is audio books, but I still do some printed stuff as well, and I think I only read one book from not 2024 this year, and it was dune. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, I I'm pretty sure I'd have to double check that, but I'm pretty confident they

Traci Thomas 14:37

were. Do you mostly read books in the year that they come out. So like, in 2025, is there anything from this year that you're hoping to still get to, or are you moved on?

Greta Johnsen 14:47

That's a great question. I mean, there are still a couple from this year that I want to try and get in like, Help Wanted is one that I just, like, haven't read yet, but it has been buzzy enough that it's like, I would like to get to that. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm already, I. Also reading something that does come out next year. So I do sort of think, I think it's called hot air.

Traci Thomas 15:07

That's why the books I told I told MJ about this book. Okay, funny, blows up. If this book blows up, I want credit, because it's a fiction book I discovered. And I never, ever do that. Yeah, Traci

MJ Franklin 15:16

recommended it to me. I then read it over Thanksgiving. Oh, I want to talk to you about this book,

Greta Johnsen 15:21

right? Okay, great. I It's funny because I like, just have such little, like, actual reading time, and I'm reading it in print, and so I'm, like, moving my way very slowly through it, but I'm, I find it very charming and kind of off putting at the same time, it's a really interesting one. Okay, I'm

Traci Thomas 15:34

reading it next. I'm currently writing a 2025, book, and then I'm gonna pick that up next. Okay, I'm so excited, ah, because I can't have you two all if this book pops, I cannot have you two taking credit for this book, because I found this

Greta Johnsen 15:48

book. Traci, so, yeah, okay, I have started a little and I think I will sort of turn the page with the new year, but it also depends, like, what's coming out in January and February, you know, like, I do think that's part of it too. Is like those often, even December, I think, is like a pretty slow publishing month in terms of new releases. So it's a great opportunity to kind of try and catch up on stuff that I may have missed through the year. And I imagine I'll do that for a couple more months, especially with audio, since those books are already out, you know, yeah, can

MJ Franklin 16:17

I ask a question Greta, which is, how does is it just like, Oh, we're in the next year, and I'm on to the next thing Where's like a discipline, like, the year is done. Even if I'm not excited about stuff in 2025 I cannot go back to 2024 like, how? How does that line of you have to read the books in the year that came out? How strict is that? That's

Greta Johnsen 16:39

a really good question. I mean, it used to be maybe more strict when I was, you know, working on nerd and like, trying to do author interviews regularly with folks who had books out and were doing press tours for them these days. You know, I'm still doing a book club through my sub stack retagram, but I'm, I am my own boss at this moment in time, which means I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want, right? Because that's the gift I can give myself. So, yeah,

MJ Franklin 17:08

happy holidays everyone.

Greta Johnsen 17:12

So, you know? And MJ, I don't know if you were like, we had a conversation years ago where you were like, don't read a book. You don't like, you know, and like, I think you said something about aspiring to read less the following year. And that's something that I thought a lot about over the several years since then, too, where it's like, I I'm trying to be much more rigorous about like, if this book isn't working for me, I don't have to. No one is telling me I need to read it. There really is no obligation. So I think, especially given my current employment situation, is like, I'm gonna read for fun and I'm gonna like, so if there's a 2025, book that looks fun and interesting, which there are several, I'm very excited about that. But otherwise, like, Yeah, I'm not gonna hold myself to the year I am currently in. No,

Traci Thomas 17:51

I love it. Okay? For the sake of transparency, I have read 131

Greta Johnsen 17:58

books. Nice this year. Oh, my God, you're cruising. Four

Traci Thomas 18:02

of them are from 2024 which is 64% of my reading has been 2024 books. I am still finishing up a few 2024 books on audio that were on the New York Times. 10 Best Books the non fiction side. Because I want to hate that list, but I want to make sure that I read everything from it so that I can really hate it. Traci,

I'm

a rigorous hater. That is

MJ Franklin 18:24

the energy that I want to bring to all things. And we're all book nerds, like doing the homework is very important to all of us.

Traci Thomas 18:31

It's so important. And because the truth is, and I've said this to you before, and I think we talked about this last year, and I think I said it to Gilbert to his face, because, like, I genuinely love the New York Times lists, not because I agree with you all most of the time, but because I think that they're exciting and fun and so reading this, this 10 books at the end of the year list is, to me, my favorite of any book list, award list, anything, even though most of the time I disagree vehemently with at least two of the non fiction picks. So it is a joy for me. And I've never actually been a full completist of the list before the year was out. So I have, I'm doing wide, wide, the wide, wide C currently, and I am bored out of my mind. MJ, I know you told me that the people who were on the non fiction side said that it was just kept delivering. So I'm giving it a chance. I'm only two hours in. I got 13 to go, and then I'm gonna go to the 975 hour biography of Reagan. And that will probably be my last 24 read. Might be the last read of my life. Could be it seven years of Reagan, but I'm gonna try. I will DNF both of them, if I don't like them, but I'm gonna try so, so I should probably end with about 8620 24 reads If I'm able to finish. So we'll see.

MJ Franklin 19:50

How do you have time for 130 books in a year, especially as like, you're working so much and Like. A gap that you read these books into and you're covering them. How do you have the time?

Traci Thomas 20:04

Um, I that's such a great question. So I definitely audio book a lot. And you're like, me 1.25 in, I assume I'm like 1.5 to 170 there

Greta Johnsen 20:13

it is. There it is. They're going fast.

Traci Thomas 20:17

Well, to me, that's how people talk. I don't talk at a one, I talk at at least a 1.5 I think I probably, if I'm excited, I talk at a 175, so for me, it's the only way I can hear it like and then I read at night, and I read in the morning. And sometimes, if I'm on deadline, I don't do my other work, and I read in the middle of the day. I don't know, and I mean, also, like, I read all sorts of kinds of books. So sometimes that means I'm reading a cookbook or something for work, or I'm like. So it's not all just like, straight novels or straight non fiction, though. I think the percentage, I think I read two cookbooks this year. So it's not like or like. I think I read like three poetry, you know, like, sometimes poetry, sometimes other things that are smaller, that sort of fill out. And some months I read a lot, and someone's I read very little. So it just sort of depends. But I'm actually down from last year, which is sort of lovely, and I continue, I'm hoping to continue a downward trend. I think

Greta Johnsen 21:10

that aspiring to a downward trend is really, really lovely.

Traci Thomas 21:14

Yeah, every year I set my goal the same. It's 100 at this point, because that feels like, yeah, that feels like responsible with the workload. But every year I go over 100 I'm like, you failed too many.

MJ Franklin 21:27

Downward Spiral, downward trend. Read less. It's not about, like, get rid of the books, burn the book. It's like, oh, quality over quantity, right? Like, I want to read the book, and I want to read everything about the author, and I'm going to read the reviews. And that's all stuff that, like shapes how you experience a book, but doesn't necessarily go onto your list. And so I want, I want the quality

Traci Thomas 21:46

time. Yeah, I do too, yeah. Okay, this is the last question before we take a break and then get to the actual list, which is, what did both of you make of 2024 as a year in books overall, what was your experience? Was it a good year? Was it a bad year? Were there trends that you felt like really popped to you? Was there anything that felt uniquely 2024 as far as books and reading life go?

Greta Johnsen 22:12

That's a really good question. MJ, I'm very curious, especially around trends, what your read is on that? I thought it was a great year for books. I thought it was phenomenal. I thought it started beautifully, too. Like, it's interesting. Looking at this list, I brought of some of my favorites, because I think, like all of them, but one I read in the first four months of the year. Like, I thought it just, like, started beautifully and just kind of kept going. What do you think? MJ,

MJ Franklin 22:37

I completely agree. I thought that this year. Yeah, January just had so January, February, so many great books that really set the tone for the year and raised the bar and the year kept delivering. I heard a theory that that was for especially for fiction, because of the election, no one wanted to publish giant books around the election because everyone assumed that our attention would be elsewhere. So I think that front loaded the year, but also, again, like the year just kept delivering. So yes, for me, it was such a like a triumphant year in books, and I think a surprising one, both that it was front loaded, but for me, that's the word that I use to describe 2024, in literature. Who would have thought that one of the buzziest books. One of the book that won the National Book Award was would be a retelling of Huck Finn. Or looking at the National Book Award list, how many of those were debuts? One of them ghost roots. One of the finalists, that's a debut short story horror collection, right? Like that is a surprising place to have captured the public imagination, because we think of, like, especially genres being like niche, not necessarily for a bad reason, but like, those are very specific communities. And so that was surprising to me. We got some really big returns from heavy headers. Alan hollinghurst had a new book this year. Again, personal. Everett had a book, but then also really delightful, surprising and really assured debuts. So for me, surprising is the word that comes to mind.

Traci Thomas 24:07

Okay, guys, no surprise to you. I disagree. I thought this was sort of a disappointing year in books, interesting words. So I agree, The year started off really strong, all of my favorite books, except for one, well, the ones I'm gonna talk about today came out in the first half of the year, and I just felt like there were some really, really strong books early in the year, and nothing quite lived up to it for me, especially on the fiction side, on the non fiction side, I think that the year sort of picked up a little bit later and did get better, but a lot of my favorite non fiction was really sleepy got, like, nobody not sleepy. Like the book was sleepy, but, like, it got slept on. People were not talking about the books that I thought were the most exciting and good. And so I felt like this was sort of a challenging year, like it felt like there was consensus around books this year in a way that I've never. Ever experienced, which is surprising to your point. MJ, I think, but I think it left it left me feeling like a lot of the year was less exciting than I wanted, because everyone sort of agreed, which is actually what I'm interested about when we get to our books, is that I'm worried that we are going to agree about too many books on the list. Can

MJ Franklin 25:18

I ask a question of, what are some books maybe that aren't necessarily on this list, but were really buzzing notable non fiction books that published later in the year that got slept on. What are those books that you want wish gut word. So like, I

Traci Thomas 25:30

think there was an essay. Well, I don't know if it was a buzzy book, but I thought it was really good. So like, I think Greta, you and I both loved it, which is how to tell when we will die by Johanna hedva, a book about disability, pain. Oh, okay, well, I won't say more than it's also on my list. It's on one of my list I have, I have a main list, and then I have a list to fill in, in case you guys steal mine, like that was a book. I thought the Ayanna Johnson book, what if we get this right? Was so fantastic. I thought, I thought that book was gonna be huge. I'm so shocked. I thought that, like I thought the barn by Wright Thompson was so fantastic, and I have seen it on some lists, but I don't think he got enough due for what he did. Another book that I loved, that I thought didn't get enough attention was the other Olympians, about transgender Olympic athletes in the 1936 Olympics. It was so on time. It was so good, so good. And I think people nobody talked about it. I probably didn't talk about it enough, to be honest. But so I do, I do think there were a lot of, there's a lot of, like, hidden non fiction this year, versus some really big non fiction books, one of which I totally despise, which was knife. I thought knife was so mid to bad and got so much like, I just feel like he sucked up all the non fiction attention in the room. So yeah, that's sort of my answer. Okay, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come back with our 10 best books of the year. I All right, I'm back with MJ Franklin and Greta Johnson. We're going to do our 10 best books of the year. How we do it? Every time is I call on you. You give me one book, you tell us a little bit about it, and we move on. If one of the books that someone calls is on your list, just cross it off. You can say this is on my list too, and then pick one of your backup picks, MJ, why don't you start us off?

MJ Franklin 27:22

I wanted to start with probably a divisive one, who knows it's all fours by Miranda July,

Traci Thomas 27:29

yes, I was hoping this wasn't gonna be on our list. Okay, okay. I think this book

MJ Franklin 27:35

is one of the most remarkable books I published this year. In terms of, I guess, to start with synopsis, it is about interdisciplinary artist who is very similar to Miranda July herself, but this character is unnamed, and at the start of the book, she decides to go on a road trip to New York, after a conversation about Parkers and drivers and what type of person she she is. And she has all this time off, and so she has booked this, like, two and a half week vacation in New York, and says she's decided that she's gonna drive there rather than fly. And she makes it just outside of her town, and instead of actually continuing the journey, she holds up at whole motel and then decides to, like, completely renovate it. I think she has, like, a $20,000 budget using royalties that she got after a commercial use part of her art or something. And so the book is divided into three sections. The first section is what is going on with the renovation of this hotel room. She starts this friendship with the interior designer who's making up this motel room. And keep saying hotel, but it's motel. So that's the first part the motel. The second part, she starts an affair with a mechanic named Davey who dreams of being a dancer. Oh my gosh. Third section, a lot is happening. And the third section is what happens when she goes home, she goes back to her life.

Traci Thomas 28:58

Is any of the spoilers? Yeah,

Greta Johnsen 29:00

most of it kind of, but also, I don't know, I mean, you would, it's probably a lot of that is on the back of the book.

MJ Franklin 29:07

Yeah, I don't think because so much happens into it, like and split split into these parts, I don't think they're spoilers, because so much happens in between. These are just kind of, like, anchors, yeah,

Greta Johnsen 29:19

pot acres. That's good way of putting it, but I will get

MJ Franklin 29:23

us out of plot territory to avoid spoilers and just say yes. The reason why I liked it is because Miranda, July has this ability to be absolutely zany and whimsical while also being deeply earnest. I don't think I knew at any point where we were going next in this story, and yet, there is such a human pathos to everything that's this character is experiencing. She's just doing things and like the approach is just askew. So this book, for me, was so thoughtful, but also destabilizing. And. It has this illicit thrill to it because it is explicit. It is steamy. There. It's graphic. I'm now just synonyms for graphic, which it extremely is. And it was one of those books that I just had so much fun reading while also being I found it also so thought provoking at the same time. So that was one of that was one of my favorite books. And I don't think I'm alone. It was like, one of the biggest books of the summer. It was also shortlisted for the National Book Award. For me, it was

Traci Thomas 30:35

on, y'all top 10. It's been on almost every it's it's one of the most, again, one of the sort of consensus books of the year. Credit, did you read it? I

Greta Johnsen 30:44

read it when I when you invited me on the show to talk. Best of I was like, Okay, I'm gonna read all fours. Oh, so you just read it. I just read it. I listened to the audiobook Miranda, July narrates it, which is incredible. I kind of hated reading it, but I like I found it to be such an uncomfortable experience, like she made so many choices that I just did not agree with and but the character made choices. Yeah, Miranda July, character made choices. However, to MJ point there, Miranda July is so weird and so exquisitely herself, and the earnestness and weirdness that comes through is a palette that I really admire and adore. So I think this is one that I was just deeply conflicted about, but I there is a lot I admire about it. For sure,

Traci Thomas 31:36

what I will say about this book that I have not read, and I hopefully will not read because I just, I know I won't like this, like, I don't have no you, I don't have to go here. But what's been interesting about this book is we do an awards at the stacks called the stackies, and this book is up for best book we didn't cover on the podcast, as well as most hated books. Yes, and I think that tracks to this tracks aggressively. So yeah, people love it or hate it. And I have yet to find like people who who don't understand the other side either. Like people who hate it are like, I get it. Everybody loves it. It was the worst. And people who love it are like, it was weird. I loved it. I understand why you hate it. So I feel like it's like, there's consensus on that too. Yeah. Okay, Greta, you're next. What's your pick? Oh

Greta Johnsen 32:20

my gosh. Okay, so I just want to say this was all very difficult, and I have a new list that I sort of pulled down, and here we are. I think, though, that my favorite of the year is Beauty Land by Marie Helene burcino, which Traci you asked us to also like, write up little for your website, of like, favorites, and I mentioned beauty land there too. Yeah, I thought this was just a phenomenal book. It kind of goes against what I was saying earlier, where, I guess there is a bit of something as afoot, but it's not hella plotty, like I remember recommending it to my mom, and she read it, and she was like, Greta. This isn't like, not a lot is had. This is much closer to like, girl walking through the woods, thinking about things than you normally like, but this one just landed so perfectly for me. It's about a girl who was born, I think it's in 1977 right as the Voyager spacecraft takes off, and it turns out she's actually like a alien who gets activated when she is, I think, seven, and her task is to, like, report back to humanity, to her home planet via fax machine, because 1980s and it's just, you know, I got to talk to Marie, Helene Bertino for nerd, and she talked about how, like, she was Really trying to embrace, like, the profound mundane, and this is a book that I just think is so beautiful on a sentence level, she is an outsider in this world, in a way that I think like any teenage girl could also relate to, because how awkward and terrible is it to be a teenage girl like there are just so many things about what it means to be human that Marie is able to convey through this lens of being an alien that is just like so exquisitely gorgeous and beautiful. And I just loved it so much. MJ, did you read it? I

MJ Franklin 34:10

read half of it. And this is on my two finished in squeeze in this month list. I thought you might recommend this. I remember how much you loved it. Yeah, listen to the episode. It was such a fun book club. And one trend that I'm seeing, not necessarily specifically in this year, but I feel like modern history, the trend is aliens, beauty, land, earthlings, which has one of the most unhinged endings that I'm still my jaw is still dropped at walking practice by Doki min worry Fauci does social mobility. And then also, there's at least one book about a girl who is or may or may not be an alien that's coming out next year. Aliens are everywhere. The trend is aliens interesting.

Traci Thomas 34:55

I love that. I have not read this either. It comes very highly recommended. From people in the stacks back who read it. They loved it. It's sort of another it's another book we didn't cover on the show, most beloved, not in the most hated category. Okay, I will go next, and I will continue on the outer space theme with a book that I love with my whole heart. I have been screaming about it all year. It is challenger by Adam Higginbotham. It's about the Challenger disaster. This book is exactly what I look for in a book when done well. This is the exact kind of non fiction I love. It's giving me history. It's giving me major capitalism failure, major government agency failure. It is giving me pulling on my heartstrings, meeting people who will unfortunately die. It is giving me cover up. It is giving me research detail. And the thing that this book does that is so hard to do and only the greats can do in film, television, books, whatever, but you've got to be an outstanding storyteller is we know where this story ends, and still, when we get to the part where the where the wheels are falling off, where we know you can't believe it's gonna happen, I get to the end of this book, and I'm just like, there's no way they launch on January 28 it's not possible. No, it's not we know that they cannot launch because we know about the O rings, we know about the weather, there's no way. And then they do the fucking countdown, and they fucking launch. And this book is just, I mean, so many people who have read it have been like, my stomach hurt as I was reading those sections, because you're sitting there being like, don't do it. Don't do it. And it's just, it's really hard, I think, to pull that off. And Adam Higginbotham, he understands how to write about a disaster in a way that is so compelling. So this is my, my, my baby,

MJ Franklin 36:50

Traci. I mentioned last year that I feel like there are books that I just there are your books like I just associate with you. Challenger is one of them. My question is, though he also wrote Chernobyl, the author Chernobyl, midnight and Chernobyl, would you recommend one to start one or the other? How do they compare? I

Traci Thomas 37:09

have not read midnight and Chernobyl. I plan to read it next year. I saw the show, and I just was like, Oh, I don't need to read it. The show is based off of Hay's book, but I will go back. I will go back and read it next year. Um, he came on this podcast and we talked, and one of the things that was funny is both of his books are set in 1986 because that's when both the disasters happened. Wow. So I told him in July of 1986 I was born to write about me like another human disaster, a failure of so many AG, but yeah, I mean, I think that I'm curious to see what he does next, if he just becomes like 1986 guy, or if he, if he branches out, but I don't think it matters which one you read first, or if it does, I guess, start with challenger, because that's what I did. But I don't think it matters.

MJ Franklin 38:01

I'm gonna start with challenge. Start with Challenger after this. That recommendation, Yep, totally so good.

Traci Thomas 38:06

Okay, Greta, you get to go next. Yep.

Greta Johnsen 38:09

It's how to tell when we will die on pain, disability and doom, which is a pretty ominous subtitle. It's by ohana, hedva and Traci. I know you really love this one too. So I'd be curious. What you think of it. I thought, I gosh, I have so many feelings about this one. I think even just for me personally, as I get older, it's been really helpful to learn more about disability and also just to recognize in my own life the inevitability of, like, people getting sick, and how to be able to talk about that, and to not just brush over terrible things that are happening in our lives, and, like, actually sit with them and register them and realize that there's like, another side of the health coin, and we're all going to experience that, and if we can actually address it for ourselves and for other people with some grace like that is like literally all we can do and will only make our lives better. And that's what I think this book captures really beautifully. It's not necessarily an easy read. It can be pretty intense, but it's I found it just very necessary. And also, there is one sentence in it that will live in my head forever, and it is, do not speak to me of self care, unless you also speak to me of revenge and like this is the energy I want to bring into the world all the fucking time. So yeah, that's why I love that book.

Traci Thomas 39:32

I think what's so interesting is you've touched on part of what I love about the book. But the other thing I love about the book, which is in that sentence, is Johanna hedva is funny as hell. Yes, they are constantly. They are not doing the thing, which is like, oh, woe is me, disability. They are doing the thing that's like, Bitch, buckle up. Yes. Yeah, you want to talk about disability. Let's talk about poop. Let's talk about mucus. Let's. Talk about the funny, icky stuff. And I think I've described this book as sort of second generation disability writing in the same way that, like, sort of first generation immigrant stories are like, I came to America, or I left my home and went and it sort of details what that is. And I feel like the second generation stories are sort of like, this is where I came from. Here's how I feel about it, or like, here's how that informs how I see the rest of the world, instead of being only the story like, and I think that's not a knock on other writing. It's more that that's how these stories are, you know, most palatable. First, we have to be taught everything, and then we get to have an opinion about it. And I think that what I love about this book is Johanna hedva has a fucking opinion. There is no chance you will read their work and think, Huh, I wonder what they think. Yes, I don't know what that felt like, totally like, totally just so the way that disability and pain and all of these things color the whole world, yes, in this book is just outstanding. I'm

Greta Johnsen 41:08

also, I'm also really grateful for their use of the phrase healthcare industrial complex. That's when I thought about a lot. That's

Traci Thomas 41:14

exactly right. Yeah, this highly recommend. Yeah, okay. MJ, what's next for you? Next

MJ Franklin 41:20

for me is a book called The coin by Yasmin Sahir. Oh, okay. Traci, shocked face. Is this expected, unexpected? Hated, loved. I DNF

Traci Thomas 41:32

this, but it was a weird experience. I was reading it, and as I was reading it, I was liking it, but then every time it was time to pick up a book to read. I never wanted to go back to my book. So I was like, oh. So I liked it. I thought it was quirky, weird. It feels like you, and it also has maybe the best cover, yes

Greta Johnsen 41:49

and outstanding. Oh, good. So

MJ Franklin 41:51

why do you love it? It is about a Palestinian woman in New York, and I think this is Traci. You've said that you love for fiction stories of unhinged women doing unhinged things, unhinged women doing unhinged things. School of literature. This woman is in New York, and she is up to shut nanigans. So she is a teacher at a private school, and she teaches mostly underprivileged students, but she quickly goes off script, and it's just like doing quote, unquote, unstructured free time. She's pseudo spying on each student's families by having the students write these journals and like they're writing these weird confessions that she should probably report stuff to, but she won't. So that's going on in school, and you're like, you should not be anywhere near children. She also is kind of dating this, like very rich pseudo Russian oligarch. And she's kind of dating him, I say because she does not like this man, but this man really likes her, and he is the only anchor that she has in New York. And so she's like, he wanted to date. And so I guess, for kind of dating. But then she starts also pseudo cheating on him with a homeless person that she sees in her neighborhood and that she recognizes, because she throws out a coat, and then the man picks up the coat and she sees him everywhere. She starts this like weird ish relationship with him, and he actually gets her to join a scheme where they are scalping Birkin bags. And I think she says that she is taking her taste and giving these expensive bags to unclassy people, because, like, it's very hard to buy a Birkin and there are all of these, like, rules of when they're available and who they'll give them to, or who can who has the privilege of buying them. So this is a lot of plot. Why I love this book is because it is one of those debuts. This is a debut, and it's shocking to me, because it is so sharp and well crafted, and I never knew what people meant when they said this word, but reading this book made me realize, and they say a book is assured her voice is, like, crystal clear. You get the sense that she's not just like, another crazy metaphor that I have when storytelling is like, there's the feeling that sometimes a book is just trying to get the story out there, squeezing the story out of the toothpaste. And there's another sense that, like, they're taking someone is taking that and just like crafting it. It's not just squeezing it out. It is like so immaculately rendered. The sentences are so funny. The writer that character, and Yasmine Sahir, is sharp, acerbic, knowing, thought provoking. It's you cringe, because again, like you, this character should not be doing any of the things that she's doing, but you can't put it down. Maybe once you do put it down, then you're like, it's too painful. I don't want to go back to it. But for me, it was just a debut that completely took me by surprise, and I was shocked by how. I was shocked that it was a debut based on how mid. Ridiculous and well crafted. It is okay,

Traci Thomas 45:02

I have to say I did DNF it, but I was liking it. It's not. It was a weird experience because I liked it, but I just never wanted to return to it. But then when I would I would read like, 20 pages, and look up and be like, Oh my god, I just read 20 pages. So I agree with everything you've said about it. Okay, oh my gosh. I don't know where to go next either I'm gonna go with my fate. I'm gonna stay on the trend of women behaving badly, making bad choices. I'm going with my queen dancing. There it is. I love this book. I know people have problems with the choices dancy's characters make. But you know what? It makes for great this is the story of Jane. She is a pseudo professor. I guess she's a professor, but I think she's not tenure something. Yeah, she's like an adjunct professor working on her second book, which is the quote, unquote, mulatto war and peace. She's struggling. Turns in the book, not a hit, according to her agent and or editor. And she decides I'm gonna sell out. I'm gonna work in Hollywood. She works for a black Hollywood executive who is trying to make the great mulatto television show. Jane herself is a great mulatto. She's married to a artist, Lenny, who just wants to make art that won't sell. Jane's obsessed with money. Jane's obsessed with mulattoes. Have I mentioned this? And Jane is house sitting for her mulatto director friend who makes blockbuster movies, and he's in Australia or something, and they're house sitting with her kids, and they're drinking his fancy wine. She's wearing his wife's fancy clothes. Jane makes bad decisions. Is anybody getting this yet from this story? It's a blast. It's a Rob I think there is not a person writing smarter about what it means to be mixed in America than Dan Zenna. I think there are other people who are who are close by special shout out to come and get it by Kylie Reed, which I thought does a lot of what this book does. And they're sort of wedged together in my brain. But I I just love I love dancing sensibilities. I love her jokes. I love her bullshit. I just love everything she puts on the page. I just she, she understands that. I described this book when I finished it as a thriller without death for kidnapping, right?

Greta Johnsen 47:42

Like, it's like, you're like, yes, break tension.

Traci Thomas 47:43

The stakes your brain. You're like, What the fuck is gonna happen? Something is afoot, okay? But it's like, the stakes are green smoothie at a Hollywood, like, executive meeting. Well,

MJ Franklin 47:57

she is so good at revealing just like, how everyday, ordinary life is weird and surreal, and she pokes fun of so much that should be made fun of. You said the word sensibility, and I think like dancy's sensibility is unparalleled, I also want to say your sensibility is unparalleled. I loved your interview with her, Traci, and you spoke. One thing that I learned in that interview, and you spoke so much about it, is why she says mulatto rather than biracial? That was such an interesting discussion. Sorry. To piggyback your recommendation with me, recommending you link to

Traci Thomas 48:32

that episode in the show notes. Folks, if you haven't, go ahead and listen to it, go ahead and listen to well, we're gonna link to everything in the show notes. But I'll put make that one really big.

Greta Johnsen 48:40

I will say though Traci, like, I actually think the stakes in this book are really high and like, I don't know, like, I don't think Jane is obsessed with money. I think one of the things that worked really well for me about color television is that Jane makes a series of like, incredibly unhinged and, like, problematic decisions. But you always know that it's because she is in such an economically precarious place, and she's just trying to find security and

Traci Thomas 49:07

money. She is obsessed with money because because of her predicament, sure, because of the place she's in, but like, Sure, her motivation and her focus is, how will I get the money to do what I

Greta Johnsen 49:19

That's true. I guess the distinction that I am making is that like she doesn't it's not like she wants to be rich for the sake of being rich. It's not like she's trying to be famous, like I read this in tandem with Ruman alums book entitlement this year, which I really did not like at all. And I think a really big reason for that was because it's similar in that, like a character is also she works for a billionaire, and so she's like, trying to figure out what she can get out of him essentially throughout the book, but you never get a sense like her motivations aren't there, and then it just feels really empty and kind of awful, in a way that it actually didn't with Jane, because it was like, No, she's worried about her. Kids and like, they need a place to live, you know? Yeah, yeah,

MJ Franklin 50:03

yeah, totally. The other element to the other stakes is, and this is why I loved it, too, is the sense of artistic fulfillment, right? She, one does not write the mulatto war and peace for purely financial gains, like she is someone who's trying to see the world and share how she sees the world with other people. She's an artist, and she's living with an artist that makes these non commercial, esoteric paintings. And so she's surrounded by art in various forms. And so there's, there's an artist story here as well. And I just the fact that we all three had different understandings of the stakes. I think speaks to how layered this book, yeah,

Traci Thomas 50:44

it is, yeah. I think this book didn't get nearly enough love. Again, a second half book that I thought sort of was, I think it got a lot of love. I don't want to say like it's on a lot of lists and things, but to me, I thought this book was, it was my it was my favorite read of the year. It might not be the best book I read this year, though, I would argue my taste is so impeccable. What I think is my favorite is the best, but that's a different episode. But yes, I just I adore this book. I adore dancing Senna. I knew people that main character, Maria lives rent free. In my head, I think about Maria at least once a week. I I can't say more, but I love her

MJ Franklin 51:23

talk about cutting. Maria has some one liners. I still think about a one liner that she says about, like a land of racial harmony, like her boyfriend is asking for, and she's like, we tried that. It's Brazil, and it didn't work. Like there are lines in that book I still think about, yes,

Traci Thomas 51:41

I'm obsessed. Okay, Greta, yes, do it.

Greta Johnsen 51:47

I am going to recommend, speaking of debuts, the Ministry of time by callian Brown. Oh, I wow. Thought this was an outstanding debut, and I thought it was marketed poorly, like Outlander was one of the biggest comparisons that people were making to this book. And it is time traveling, and there is a hot dude from the past, but this is, like, it gets pretty violent, and is, I would call it sci fi. It's like, I don't think it's a romance at all, actually, and it's time me, why me? The guy, the hot dude from the past, is a, I mean, you know, they would have called him like an explorer, and he's based on someone in real history. But the thing that I think this book does really beautifully is it explores colonialism, really, and, like, the history of like, are you an intrepid, like, person who's out there in a really, like, bold, interesting way, or are you actually just, like, figuring out how to oppress a lot of people? And it was just really, really good and plotty and interesting, and there was, like, a twist at the end that I didn't see coming. And I just really enjoyed this one

Traci Thomas 53:03

a lot. I've heard so many mixed things about this, have you? So I'm very, I've very, yeah, yeah.

Greta Johnsen 53:09

I think, like, I think it's a great debut. I think there are things about it that didn't totally work, but I think there's some really interesting elements, and I think it's totally worth reading for what it's worth. I was

MJ Franklin 53:19

just writing down some of the words you used to describe it because describe it, because I've heard, I have I've been struggling with how to place this book. I've heard people talk talking about it, but I'm like, What is this book about? And so I was like, leaning in, writing down your descriptions, and you it's not a romance, but I assume that, because you have to clarify, that there are romantic elements to it. Sure. Sci fi, time travel, colonialism, yeah, so much is happening here?

Greta Johnsen 53:43

Yes, a lot. Yes, there are a lot of really interesting elements. Yeah, I think it's, I thought it was great, and I think it's one of those where, like, I don't think it got enough, uh, accolades for for what it is. So I thought this would be a great opportunity to shout it out. I figured it wouldn't be on y'all list. So I know I brought it. It's

Traci Thomas 54:00

definitely not on mine. Okay? MJ, I

MJ Franklin 54:03

think we have a shared one, and I'm just gonna jump in. And that is martyr, okay, good.

Traci Thomas 54:10

I was nervous. None of us was gonna say it, okay.

Greta Johnsen 54:13

I did not put it on my list because I knew between the two of you we would get to yell about,

Traci Thomas 54:17

okay, okay, then

MJ Franklin 54:19

should we do a shared, like description of this? Because one, I feel like I've described this many times in very I can never capture it properly.

Greta Johnsen 54:27

I can never capture that's the thing, right? Let's

MJ Franklin 54:31

tag team it. Let's tag team it. And like, we'll all fill in the blanks. This is why we're a band.

Traci Thomas 54:37

But Christian leave this in. This is leave. Okay. You pick Marta, go. You start. No spoilers. Keep it as tight as possible,

because I feel like some of the

joy of this book is not really knowing what's going to happen and where it's going to go and so I don't hear you give away to. Much I hear you. Part

MJ Franklin 55:01

of the reason why I also hesitant to start off describing it is because I also described it for the book review podcast, and I started off that one, and I don't want to repeat

Traci Thomas 55:09

what do you want me to start? Okay, I'll start. I will start describing this. You guys can fill it in. This is a book about Cyrus, who's Iranian born, moves to the United States at two years old, to the Midwest, to the mid very important specified. He moved to the Midwest with his father. His mother has died in a shooting down of an airplane that was a passenger plane by the United States in an act of war that was considered an accident, an oopsie daisies by the United States, but killed hundreds of people, including children. Cyrus is obsessed with this idea of what his mother died for, which is how we sort of get to his idea of right? He wants to write about martyrs and become one himself. So he has this preoccupation that is sort of the general premise of the book. If you read the flap cover, which I don't recommend. There is more information about where this book goes, but I don't think, I don't think you need it. I

MJ Franklin 56:07

think that's a perfect description, and I think it gets at for me personally, I'm curious what everyone else thinks and why they love it, too. But the reason why I love this book is you just fall in love with the voice. That voice is hurt, but searching that voice is a little bit. That voice is struggling. And I left this book feeling like I will read a million other books about specifically Osiris. I will read a million books by COVID Akbar. He's a poet, and so you get the there's a poet's flair that is alive and well in this book. And I'm speaking very vaguely, because, again, I don't want to spoil anything, but in addition to the poet's voice, this book is just stuffed with interesting facts and Ramadan and

Traci Thomas 57:00

pop culture things, pop culture things characters. I forgot one piece of the story that I do think is important, that is not plot, but is about Cyrus. He is also in recovery from addiction. I didn't mention that, yeah, because that is important to his sort of headspace, and that is where the book starts. I think the first section is about him struggling and recovery related things, like reflecting on that. So that is important to

Greta Johnsen 57:26

your book well. And I think, too, I mean, I think it's worth noting that the title has an exclamation point in it, which just like, you know, in terms of registering vibes, like, yes, it is about murder hood, but like, there's an exclamation point here. And I think also, Traci, you said that, like, he's, he's trying to figure out, like, what is worth murdering yourself for? I think the other side of that, that is also very present and very beautiful in this book is what is worth living for. Like, how do you make a life that is worth like, how do you earn living when so many people don't even get that opportunity? Like, how do you do what you can with the life you have, which I think is also really gorgeous and just so like vibrant and urgent in this story.

Traci Thomas 58:07

Yes. And to plug Greta, we, the three of us talked about Marta earlier this year under that Yeah. And, and, I think one of the things that I love about this book is I'm such a critical person, I can always find a knit to pick with a piece of work. And I found plenty of knits in martyr. And yet, still, when someone says it, when I think about it, my hand immediately goes to my chest. I rub my chest because I feel so warmly about Cyrus, about Cyrus's uncle, who's a character about COVID Akbar, about the color yellow on the like it just this book. Despite things that I would change, there's nothing I would change about this book, because it gets to the feels, and it's so unique in that way that there can be things that I a monster don't like and still just devour and love and think so fondly of of this book. Yep, okay, we did it. Martyr, okay, martyr, thank God. I was getting nervous. I was like, we're really holding our cards close. I feel like with this, okay, well, I think this is my last pick, and then I think we agree on the 10th one, I'm pretty sure so I will do my third pick, which is a memoir, again, another book that did not get enough attention, according to me, another word for love by Carvel Wallace. This, to me, was far and away the memoir of the year. As far as I'm concerned, it is about Carvel Wallace. It's a memoir. The first section is about their boyhood as a black kid growing up with a mom who is struggling to maintain housing, with addiction, all sorts of things. He's in and out with his aunt and uncle who there's some abuse happening there. It's really a struggling, trauma filled childhood, I think, is how you would present the first part. Part two will. Skip over because I don't. It doesn't really help my narrative. The book, it's about it's about God. It's very small. It's like notes on God. It's very small. And then part three is all about healing, possibility, what to make of trauma, what is possible to make of trauma. And the writing is so beautiful. I thought it was funny. I read the book before it came out, and then as it started coming out, I started seeing reviews. People kept saying, Carvel Wallace, poet and author. I think at one point, Carvel is like, I appreciate this so much. I'm actually not a poet, but the writing feels that way. The writing feels so beautiful and poetic that you're like, of course, this is a poem. I mean, for people who love Kiese, layman, for people who love Hanif abdurhib, it is in conversation with both heavy and every single word that Hanif has ever written. It has that sort of earnestness and that purity. There's sex in this book too. There is a lot of exploration. There's a section about apology that I think about regularly that is so beautiful, but it's one of those books where it sort of starts off as a quote, unquote, typical trauma memoir, and you're just like, oh, tough life, poor kid. And then it becomes this whole other thing about like, what do we make of this? What can we make of a world? What is another word for love? And it is just so moving and so beautiful and and earnest, again, earnest for sure.

MJ Franklin 1:01:27

That's another trend that I'm seeing this year. I feel like there's a lot of earnestness in this year's literature, a lot of self searching, a lot of personal reckoning. I love it. That's Yes, that's in the MJ School of literary fiction, where nothing happens, but you're just with the character for a long time. This has been a good year for me. I

Traci Thomas 1:01:48

feel like this. I feel like earnestness is in is like so in right now, I had the pleasure of doing Hanif book event here in LA and I think that I referred to him as our great earnest King, and everyone in the audience laughed so hard because he is, I mean, between him and COVID, they are the dueling, like, there's a tear

Greta Johnsen 1:02:10

for you. You're welcome. Feast on it with me. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:02:13

And they're, like, best friends. And I'm, like, obsessed with their friendship and their earnest. It's that whole group of poets. It's just Clint Smith, it's just all these earnest men just writing poems about fatherhood and music. It's very precious. Okay, this brings us to our 10th pick. I'm assuming we're all on the same page here. We can just say it on the count of three. Oh,

Greta Johnsen 1:02:34

good. I was hoping you would do that. Here we go. 123,

Traci Thomas 1:02:38

James, yeah. Who wants to do it? Greta, you wanna set this one up? Oh

Greta Johnsen 1:02:42

my gosh, sure. Well, I mean, MJ kind of did earlier, but essentially, it's retelling of Huck Finn. You do not need to have read Huck Finn recently. I think that's an important specification. I've never read it. I think I read some of it in high school. This is, however, an inversion of Huck Finn's story, because this is told from the point of view of Jim, also known as James, who is the enslaved person who goes on adventures with Huck in the original Mark Twain book, there is, I think it's fair to say, a certain audacity to being like, Oh yeah, Mark Twain, like that classic, like canonical American literature. I'm gonna fuck with that a little bit. And Percival does it so exquisitely. This is such a smart book. There are so many different layers to unpack. It's also he spares no single word. I mean, this isn't a super long book, but it is just excellent. And it's so exciting to see something, I think, in the year 2024, and be like, Oh, Canon, like, we can just add it to the shelf and it's just there, and there's no question about it, and it's so beautiful and brilliant and smart and heartfelt, like all, just all the things,

MJ Franklin 1:03:54

yeah, one of the things that impresses me the most about this book is how it re it taps into an existing work and reshapes our existing cultural narratives, while also still standing on its own as its own unique, original, all star work of literature. I think that's a really hard thing to do, to tap into, to retell something and make your own voice and sensibility rise above and outside of that existing property, especially something as like core to the American canon as Huck Finn. He set himself up no small task, and he really takes a huge swing and knocks out of the park. And I don't know why I'm doing the sports metaphor, because I'm not

Traci Thomas 1:04:45

a sports person. I love it. You're doing great.

MJ Franklin 1:04:48

I think it's remarkable. And I think it also feels like this career capstone for a person, whatever, who knows how many books he has left in him. I hope many, many, many people. A

Traci Thomas 1:05:00

lot, because he at least has 30 years of life. So he's probably got another 30 books

MJ Franklin 1:05:03

Exactly. But he's he's been writing so many books that have gone under the radar, and people are coming to them more and more now, especially because of American fiction. So to see someone get their flowers and watch the like energy and excitement around this book. CO LS, in real time throughout this year has been remarkable.

Traci Thomas 1:05:23

Yeah. I think one of the things I love about this book is that I was sort of intimidated going in, because I had not read Huck Finn, and I started it, and I got two pages in, and I was like, Babe, if I start this, it'll be the only book I read all year. There's no way I'm not doing it. And I think, like when a book is really beloved, and like acclaimed, people can be worried that it's gonna be hard or challenging to read, difficult to get through, because it's, like, critically acclaimed. So it must be a lot. This book is so accessible. And I mean that, not in a pejorative way, but in a like, you pick it up, you read it in a day. It goes down so smooth. It's cold water in the desert, right? It's just like, I want it. I need it. Fill me up. It is funny, like personal Everett, it is so I mean, the thing about personal Everett and dancy Senna, who are husband and wife, and that I love about both of them, is that they are never precious with their characters. Both of them are sort of mean to their characters, which I love, like they have such a strong point of view as as the authorial voice that comes out because they make their characters do shit, and they make their characters say shit where you're just like, dancy hates dancy hates Jane as much as I do, right or like, and I feel like that comes out in this book. And then also the other thing I love, and I will not say any details, I will not spoil a thing. This book starts in one place, and when you get to the ending and you close the book, I literally was like, this is a different book, but in the best possible way, like how we got here, makes total sense. But where I started is not where I am at the ending, and that is really hard to do, especially in 200 and whatever pages, especially with a story we already know and a character we're already somewhat familiar with. Yeah,

MJ Franklin 1:07:05

there's a please bear with me as I form this thought now, but I have this taxonomy in my head of books that show like beautifully. They show a reckoning, they show an experience, etc, etc. They like capture a moment, and books that push and in terms of, like pushing a cultural script, pushing the bounds of what we think of as books, I think this book starts off as a book that shows it's a book that shows the other side of Huck Finn that we haven't seen. It's a book that shows the humanity of James in a way that we haven't seen. And by the end, it's a book that has pushed it's pushed cultural scripts. It's very cerebral. It is pushed our notions of philosophy. It has pushed it, yeah, I don't want to say more, but I think, yeah, I think that's a part of the that's a taxonomy I'm forming now, and I think that it's captured in this book.

Traci Thomas 1:08:01

I love that. Okay, that is our list. That's a really good list. I'm really proud of us. Way to go, everybody, we're gonna we are, like out of time, but we're gonna wrap up quickly. We're gonna quickly just we're not gonna do what we normally do, which is, like predictions for 2025, reading. I don't know stuff's gonna happen. We're gonna be wrong. But I do want you to each share maybe two books you're very excited about for 2025 we'll take hot air off the table, since that's a book that I invented

Greta Johnsen 1:08:34

Traci Thomas,

Traci Thomas 1:08:35

hot air by Marcy, whatever as told to you by Traci Thomas, published by Traci Thomas books. Inc, if you need a copy, come to my house. I'm the only one who can distribute

Greta Johnsen 1:08:49

my book. Mercy is going to be like, what the Yeah, she's

Traci Thomas 1:08:52

going to hate this. I don't know, Marcy. I'm sorry to Marcy in advance. I hope I like the book, because if I don't, this will be the last to hear. MJ, do you want to start with with, do you want to just give us two books you're excited about? You know, we don't take

MJ Franklin 1:09:07

turns. I'll start with, I have one, which is stag dance by Tori Peters. Tori Peters is the author of the transition baby, which is one of my all time favorites. I know next to nothing about stag dance. Other than that, it's coming out, and I will read anything that Tory Peters writes. So that's one book that I'm excited about that

Traci Thomas 1:09:28

was on our list for best books the year that it came out. Do you transition, baby? Yeah, that book, I think that was the book we all agreed on, actually, that year, I think there were three of us, and we all agreed on that one, even me,

MJ Franklin 1:09:39

I loved it. The stacks packs is giving taste. It's giving taste. That's the one that I wanted to mention.

Greta Johnsen 1:09:47

What about you? Greta, I have three, but I'll be really quick about them, because all of them are like, I know very little about them, but I'm really excited, just because they're authors I admire. The first one is Nettie, ok. Corophors newest book, death of the author, that comes out in January. And then the other two are new novels from Karen Russell and Kevin Wilson. KAREN RUSSELL wrote swamplandia Many years ago, and has written a couple other, I think mostly, short story collections since then, and is just like so weird and vibrant and wonderful. And Kevin Wilson's book is called Run for the hills. It comes out in May, and I'm pretty sure it's like a cross country road trip novel, but like, Kevin Wilson is just one of my all time favorite authors forever. So I am just like, so excited. I already have a galley of it, but I'm saving it because I'm like, too excited. I can't read it yet because it's a gift. I know that myself eventually. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, just

Traci Thomas 1:10:42

like MJ said that there's books he associates with me. Kevin Wilson is an author I associate with. Oh, I'm honored that's You are the Kevin Wilson that's so beautiful. I obviously have too many books that I'm excited about. I will just plug. I wrote a list of most anticipated books. I think my list had like 41 books. Usually it has like 30. So I like, I'm really excited for 2025 that's great. I'm not even that excited. I think that I don't know. I feel like I'm I don't have, usually I go into the year being like, this is what I'm like. Last year I was like, I'm excited about James. This is what I'm excited about. This year I'm going into 2025 like, there's lots of things, and I could be excited about any of that. Like, I don't have a strong though now I have to be all in on hot air, because I've made I've made it my personality. I wonder if you're gonna hate it. I'm sorry. I can't wait. I probably am. I probably never talk about it again. So obviously, Imani Perry has a new book coming, black, black and blues, which I'm excited about. But I don't want to talk about that, because everybody already knows I love her. So I'm gonna skip that. There is a book, a book from critic Andrea long Chu called authority coming out cool. It's a collection of essays about who has the authority to talk about culture. And Chu is known for mean, nasty reviews that piece about Hana Yanagihara that was Andrea long Chu, if you guys think I'm mean, get ready. So good. So I'm thrilled for cult mean cultural criticism to come out. I will say this. Kaveh Akbar blurbed authority, and he posted about it, and I DM him. Was like, I'm so excited about this. And he said, Actually, you sort of remind me of Andrea long to and I was like, highest compliment. Also, what in it? What coming from an earnest king like you? I feel like I should feel bad.

Greta Johnsen 1:12:31

No, I think, no, we need that energy going into next year more than ever. That's

Traci Thomas 1:12:35

Yes, don't talk to me about care if you're

Greta Johnsen 1:12:37

not going to talk to me about, babe, let's fucking go and

Traci Thomas 1:12:41

then the other I'm gonna put these two together. There's a book called disposable, by Sarah Jones, and then a book called there is no place for us, by Brian Goldstone. Brian Goldstone is about the working. His book is about the working, homeless. And then disposable is about people who were sort of like thrown away in the reckoning with COVID, disabled people, people who were considered like pirates, was that word we use? What was the word we use for people who had to work, essential workers? Oh, sure. But I think all of these books are sort of about capitalism and the failure of the safe social safety net and all of these things, and they both look like, sort of in the School of maybe evicted a visible child, where they're following certain families who have dealt with this, which is another kind of non fiction King for me, and I think that is going to be a trend for the year, which is going to be about social safety net books. I think we're going to see a lot of books that deal with the failures of Since 2020 that are actually really good because they've had time to sort of marinate. So those are, those are mine. I have, I have way more on this list that I'm cutting because we're over time. But I know I'm

Greta Johnsen 1:13:45

panicking that I didn't get to mention, uh, Ruthie Thor mentioned Margot's got many troubles. Oh,

MJ Franklin 1:13:50

I had that on my list, too.

Greta Johnsen 1:13:52

Did you? Oh, man,

Traci Thomas 1:13:53

I've actually thought it would be on the list. I started it because I thought it would be on the list. And then I moved to my 2025, book. But I liked it. I just, I don't know that I needed I read 30 pages, and I'm just like, oh, this goes on more pages. I think,

Greta Johnsen 1:14:10

I think you would end up liking it. It's interesting because it ends up being a novel about the failure of social safety nets in a lot of ways, right? Because it's about a young mother who's like, cannot figure out how she can take care of her baby and also work and all of the things. And so she ends up starting an onlyfans

MJ Franklin 1:14:26

account. And that is also a book where something is afoot. She is thinking, thinking, thinking through this kind of whimsical, maximalist plot. Yes,

Traci Thomas 1:14:35

stop making me want to read 2024, books. I need to move on. Well, the

Greta Johnsen 1:14:40

only other thing I will say, the only other thing I will say about it, is that the audiobook is narrated by Al Fanning, who also is going to star as Margo in the Apple TV, plus adaptation. And if you are not enticed enough by that, the father, who's this like pro wrestler, guy named Jinx, will be played by Nick Offerman. So Oh. Margot. You are curious. Margot's father, so, father of the baby. So, no, no, correct. Margo. Thank you. So, yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:15:07

who's gonna play the father of the baby? The teacher?

Greta Johnsen 1:15:09

I don't know. I haven't seen a full casting list. I don't know. I feel like Adam

Traci Thomas 1:15:13

Scott has to, oh, my god, Big Adam Scott. And

Greta Johnsen 1:15:16

yeah, who knows? You never know with an adaptation if it'll even happen. But my fingers are crossed. It would be so much fun. Sorry. MJ, what were you gonna say,

MJ Franklin 1:15:24

since they that character, the father of the baby, the crosser, is such a particularly awful type of smarmy, like powerful and pathetic at the same time, like that, casting has to be spot on.

Traci Thomas 1:15:39

But yeah, technically in our top 10. Sorry, stop trying to. Stop trying to make it an 11. We did it. We did 10. I don't want to bump 1111. So unattractive to me. I'm sorry. I am. I am a top 10 purist ones in a row. But we will. We'll link to this book in the show notes. Want that fake 11th pick, but it is. It's not real. It's not official, unless you want to throw out something that you already put

Greta Johnsen 1:16:04

on. I mean, I would throw out Ministry of time, but it's okay. That's just my own panic happening. Wow,

Traci Thomas 1:16:09

I can't believe you put Ministry of time on over Margo, I know, realizing this, I pay,

Greta Johnsen 1:16:14

I did. I thought we'd have more time. Traci,

Traci Thomas 1:16:19

this is how this happens. You guys want to know how lists get made, the fallibility of lists, this is exactly what happened. Take it to Greta, though, because I stand by mine. That's fine. That's fine, everybody. Thank you both for being here. I think we've actually cemented that. Moving forward, it will be the three of us doing this. Great. I would love. I've been tossing around different people, but I think this is it. This is it.

Greta Johnsen 1:16:40

I love. I feel like we like, overlap really nicely, but then also branch off really nicely. Like, you know, like, this is a great like, someone is going to find something they love on this list, which is wonderful. And

Traci Thomas 1:16:50

if they don't, you're in the wrong place, reading the wrong books.

MJ Franklin 1:16:54

This is a group that believes in revenge. Remember, yes,

Traci Thomas 1:16:59

strongly, that is our energy we're taking into next year. Not only do we believe in it, that's our aspiration, is to get deeper into it. Thank you both so much for being here and everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Greta Johnsen and MJ Franklin for joining the show. Do not forget the stacks book club pick for December is tacky by Rax King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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